"Why do manufacturers think successful cartridges should make your hand sting and ears ring?

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Ed Harris posted this 10 December 2007

With 87 replies and over 4300 reads, the “Popgun" thread must be a Guiness record holder in the cast bullet firearms world, but we should move it elsewhere, lest people think we are writing a book.  Who would have imagined it would be so popular?

So, I have started a new thread entitled:

"Why do manufacturers think that successful cartridges should make your hand sting and your ears ring?  Continuation of the “Pop-Gun / Bunny Gun” Thread: 

The requested parameters per Ed Harris

1) Pro or con discussion of the new .327 Federal Magnum,

2) Tales of woe or wisdom especially related to .30 Carbine revolvers

3) Other ear splitting small bore center-fires, such as the .30 Luger or .30 Mauser

4) Any other firearm, rifle, handgun, pistol, revolver, shotgun insert tube, etc. whose caliber designator first numerical digit is a “THREE” and whose second numerical digit is TWO or LESS!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 10 December 2007

Just to start the ball rolling, here is a reprise of my comments on the .327 Federal.

Feel free to add your own.   I'm anxious for the first test-fire report with cast bullets when somebody finally gets their hands on one of these puppies!

The .327 Federal ”€œ just another Federal flash in the pan? 

You may have read the hype - From the November, 2007 press release: “Federal has partnered with Ruger to introduce a new personal defense revolver cartridge designed to deliver 357 Magnum ballistics out of a 32-caliber diameter platform”€and with 20-percent less recoil. The 327 Federal Magnum”¦ designed for use in lightweight, small frame revolvers like the proven Ruger SP101”¦This allows shooters to chamber an additional round in their wheelgun”€six shots as opposed to the traditional five-shot cylinder offered in 38-Special and 357 Magnum guns”¦

“The 327 Federal Magnum is ideal for personal defense and has the potential for future application in field use”¦Ruger SP101 will shoot 32 H&R Magnum, 32 S&W and 32 S&W Long ammunition”€giving shooters four caliber offerings and a great, versatile product for target shooting and personal defense applications.

The ammunition will be available in three loads: ”¢ PD327HS1 H: Federal Premium 85-gr Hydra-Shokâ„¢ JHP (1330 fps muzzle velocity in 3-1/16â€? barrel) ”¢ AE327: American Eagle® 100-gr SP (1400 fps muzzle velocity in 3-1/16â€? barrel) ”¢ 23914 : Speer 115-gr Gold Dot® HP (1300 fps muzzle velocity in 3-1/16â€? barrel)

Ruger will offer the 327 Federal Magnum SP101 in a 3-1/16-inch barrel length and six-shot cylinder..adjustable rear site and satin stainless finish”¦available beginning in January of 2008. Federal and Ruger are hyping this as a defense gun for women, but I believe that the users they want to attract will be turned off by its noise, muzzle flash and recoil. I've trained my share of female CCW and this is the WRONG ANSWER!

I predict that this cartridge will go the way of the 9mm Federal in a few years, unless they promote it as a dual-purpose rifle-handgun, small game and varmint cartridge to replace the .32-20. 

The .327 “could” be what the .32 HRM “should” have been. It was unfortunate that the .32 HRM was designed around the weaker H&R revolver so that factory load pressures were limited to slightly above the .38 Spl. +P. Had the .32 HRM been designed from the git-go within the working design limits of the SP101 at ~30,000 psi, it would have been a horse of a different color, enabling .32-20 rifle performance from a 4” revolver.   

But factory HRM loads never lived up to the round's true potential in a strong, modern gun.  So it never really took off as it should have.

The .327 does provides an opportunity to “fix” this, but because of the pre-existing H&Rs they must lengthen the case to avoid its use in the weaker revolvers.  

While its is true that greater case capacity has advantages for rifle use, because it gives you more room to stuff more slow-burning powder in, this approach works poorly in handgun barrels shorter than about 5 inches.  This is because powders which work best in long barrels leave unburned powder residue, which gets under the extractor to jam DA revolvers, produces lower velocities due to incomplete burning and poor ballistic uniformity from “snubbyâ€? barrels favored for concealed defense carry.

The larger unused powder space which results when loading faster powders which are required for a “clean burn” in the short barrels, causes greater velocity and pressure variations caused by random powder positioning.  This also occurs in the .357 and .44 Magnum cases when you have small charges of fast powder “sloshing around” in them.  The effect of this upon accuracy s minimal within 25 yards, but greater vertical dispersion is very apparent at realistic "small game” ranges of 50 yards or more.  

I would think of the .327 Federal as a rimmed cal. .30 Carbine. The .30 Carbine Blackhawk was and still is still nasty and unpleasant to shoot with full loads.  Most people I know who own them load it down to the equivalent of a .32-20, which was about the greatest small game gun ever. 

But just imagine the sensory overload, ear splitting noise, dazzling muzzle flash and a sharp sting in the web of your hand shooting the ballistic equivalent of a .30 Mauser from a 3” revolver!

I would expect that the ammo will be neither plentiful, nor cheap. If .327 experience parallels that of the .38 Special v. .357 Magnum, accuracy experienced firing shorter .32 HRM and .32 S&W Long rounds in the longer .327 chamber will be inferior to using them in proper chambers dimensioned for them. 

The .327 would make a good modern replacement for the .32-20 Winchester by providing a well designed, strong, modern case, if suitable modern firearms were designed for it.

I would like to see the .327 offered in a trim, small game bolt action having proportions like the CZ .22 Hornet walking rifles, or an elegant, modern, single-shot “rook rifle” weighing about 5 pounds, with 24” barrel, paired with reasonable choices of trim, accurate revolvers for field use, such as the Single Six or an SP101 with a slender 4” barrel and Bowen Rough Country sights.

That could keep a potentially nice round from falling flat on its face. I don't see it taking off as a defense round.  But if we can get the French Army to adopt it there may be hope.

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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bruce posted this 10 December 2007

Ed,

To get the ball rolling on your theme question of:

 "Why do manufacturers think that successful cartridges should make your hand sting and your ears ring? ”

I will ask another question:

"Isn't the development of disatisfaction a basic building block of marketing?"

If gun and ammo manufacturers accepted the obvious truth that a S&W j-frame with .38 Special ammo was all the average citizen required in their pocket, we could then all go about our business paying little attention to  them.

As enthusiasts, however, we need to be constantly assaulted with new products to evaluate, criticize, then buy immediately or at least place on lay-away.

Now on ear-splitting dot-three-(x<3) handguns, what about the Tokarev round? (If it didn't already exist, ammo manufacturers would need to invent it. - think .32NAA)  The length of these puppies has kept them from becoming popular in pocket pistols, though. Would the new Federal .327 Magnum match it for velocity? Should I pass on the Romanian TT-33 and just keep saving for an SP101 in the new chambering?

One more question: Is there a shotgun liner available for one of the New England break opens that is good for .32 S&W Long or .32 H&R Mag? If so, could it be reamed a tad longer for the .327 Federal Magnum?

Bruce

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Ed Harris posted this 10 December 2007

Bruce,

Yes, the 7.62x25 is essentially a .30 Mauser variant and aptly included in our mix. I've had some success loading for the 1896 Mauser broomhandle with the .312 94-grain Meister and 4 grs of Bullseye, the minimum which would cycle the action. Accuracy only OK, but equalled milsurp ball ammo. Tried only a few in a friend's TT33 and needed 5 grs. of BE for reliability.

The TOKs are solid guns and great buy for the money. Hell for strong and milsurp ammo is cheap. Might need a weaker recoil spring if you shot alot of cast unless you HT the bullets.  Otherwise the heavier loads needed to cycle well may lead.

Hell yes, for $199 I would pop for the Romanian TT33 and with the money you save compared to the Ruger buy a zillion rounds of the milsurp ammo and enjoy it for a couple years.  No brainer.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=295741#>

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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bruce posted this 10 December 2007

Ed,

Thanks for the MCA tip. I just found their URL:

http://www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm

It looks like their products fit well into this discussion.

Bruce

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CB posted this 11 December 2007

Ed,

It's called a gimmick, driven by commerce of the free enterprise system, kind like the Cabbage Patch Kids. You chum the waters and set a frenzy to think everybody has to have one.  Like the S&W Ladysmith, Ruger needs a Ladyruger.

Consumers are gullible. They don't know Dirty Harry shooting his S&W 44 Magnum would have been deaf after shooting his third bad guy. Uzi clips never go empty while you shoot for an hour, all without carrying two cases of ammo to re-supply.

I used to collect animal traps, Oneida Newhouse, Diamond, Montgomery, etc. Looking back at the trap market 100 years ago, most trap innovations are gimmicks, after the consumer's pocket. Just like the Winchester 30-30 and the better mouse trap the 300 Savage. How long has this been going on anyway? Or rather, would you ever expect it to quit?:thinking:.................Dan

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RicinYakima posted this 11 December 2007

Dan, It is like panning for gold. You throw out a lot of black sand to a flake of gold. Remember S&W's gun of the month? I found two gold nuggets: the 625 4” in 45AR and the 32 HRM in TiLite. But then others think they are fools' gold! Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 12 December 2007

Nuggets or keeping the black sand?

My favorite flakes of black sand are two S&W Model 31s and a .32 Hand Ejector in .32 S&W Long I found and bought during the 20 years before I finally found the .32 NP Colt Police Positive 4-incher that I was actually looking for all that time when I started this bunny gun business! Mechanically sound, solid frame .32 revolvers seem to be scarce enough that I feel obligated to buy every one I find. Must be an affliction!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CB posted this 12 December 2007

So that's why I can't find one! Ed has them all...

I guess I will just treat my 30 carb like one, it seems to like being treated that way..

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RicinYakima posted this 12 December 2007

The second handgun I ever bought was a used Colt Cobra 4 inch in 32 NP. It is what started my illness for 32 pistols. At the time the only reloading I was doing was BP for the centennial of the “War of Southern Secession" guns that were being reproduced at the time. Ric 

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Ed Harris posted this 13 December 2007

Down here we call it the War of Northern Aggression...

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 13 December 2007

My father's family is from Kentucky and the part of Virgina that became the state of West Virgina. Most were staunch Unionists, but some fought on the Southern side. I don't know what is the politically correct terminology now. Growing up most of the old folks just called it “that damned war". But then I guess all civil wars are that, if you look at Iraq.

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JeffinNZ posted this 13 December 2007

Here's is my take.

All the new cartridges of late achieve little if anything in terms of what the average shooter is capable of.  All they do is give us some additional choices.  For example the .17 HMR is merely the .22 Hornet of the 21st century.  The .327 appears to do nothing that my .32-20 can't.  Yes, they are interesting and achieve some great results on paper but in terms of hunting I am in some doubt that the recipient is any the wiser as to what leveled it at what range.  Basically I am not likely to buy into it.

BUT...............and her is the important part..............whilst the market is bouyant the shooting industry is bouyant and the future of our sports is bouyant and THAT'S all that matters.

 

Cheers from New Zealand

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 14 December 2007

Ed, I'll bite.

I had a .30 Carbine Blackhawk.  Actually two of 'em.  I sold the first one after I decided that while quite accurate, it wasn't very practical.  It was WAY too noisy to attempt to shoot without ear protection.  Tried that once.

A fellow insisted he trade me another one for some unknown rifle I was trying to sell.  Another friend had just turned a Rem. 721 into a varmint rifle and gave me the .30-06 barrel.  I cut the chamber off, threaded it and screwed it onto the Blackhawk.  Alright, a 21” .30 Carbine, that ought to quiet it down!  Nope.  But with the 10” twist I could shoot 180 gr. CBs.

I finally traded into a .357 cylinder, bought a Douglas blank, and turned it into a very accurate .357 Mag.  Much more practical!

Glenn R Latham

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Mnshooter posted this 15 December 2007

Ed

I have a little Taurus fixed sight 32 Long that does what a 32 should for me even if only with a 3 inch barrel. I have shot grey squirrels with it under ideal conditions when I carried it as a second firearm. If I want to go bigger I use the 45 Colt in my Ruger Vaquero. Mostly my use for a pistol is in a 22. Personally, I think that the manufacturers are trying to create problems and solutions to sell more firearms, which is why they are in business. I also have a theory that tolerance to recoil and muzzle blast are not linear in nature, but that there are tolerance thresholds, where if one finds a 38 special too hard to shoot that going a little lighter with a hot 32 would not be the answer. The shooters reaction to the firearm discharge is usually that of a flinch if the weapon is too loud (which is as bad for some as recoil)or has excessive recoil. A flinch is a flinch and a near miss is as bad as a bad miss.

 The game of souping up small calibers to make them do what a bigger one can do better has been going on in both rifles and pistols since they developed cartridges. The pistol cartridges that really fascinate me are the new developments in big bore hunting pistols, as some of these generate ballistics that are impressive and would have a fair amount of recoil in rifles. I was told by a dealer that they are ported for control and that if you did not wear ear protection your ears would probably develop a permanent ringing sensation. They also weigh in as much as a dragoon pistol which was carried on a holster over the saddle and not on the person. Such is the power of marketing.

Mnshooter

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Tom Acheson posted this 15 December 2007

Don't forget the Dirty Harry movie..."the S&W .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world". Boy did that make people happy in S&W world headquarters. So many people bought them, fired not even a box of ammo and slid it into the dresser drawer. But they did have braggin' rights...."hey, I own of them new .44 Magnums!!!” What's one of the most often used answers at guns shows when you see a Model 29 sitting on a table when you ask why are you getting rid of it? “I find I just don't shoot it much anymore and it doesn't have very many rounds through it either"

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CB posted this 18 December 2007

Well Ed, my two cents. The reason is the same one that explains why we need 450 car models. Ego, plain and simple. Few women are clamoring for bigger more powerful handgun cartridges. Most men are hiding behind a blast wall in their minds when you mention Casul. S&Ws half incher sux. To look at, hold, fire and feed. Freedom arms makes fine firearms that most folks don't want to fire more than a cylinder full of. Just to stir things up, I'm gonna start a subsonic thread. I'll appreciate your comments.

                                                                                     Roy

 

*Dirty Harry shot “light specials". This was mentioned in the second Dirty Harry flick. Even Dirty Harry was shy about magnum loads.    

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Lloyd Smale posted this 20 December 2007

I shoot big bore handguns alot! Im not a masocist and am not a ego maniac. I hunt with them too. I never stop being amazed by uniformed people that call them elephant and dinasour killing weapons. If you look at the ballistics of a 500 linebaugh youd see its noting more then a black powder level 4570 and how many of you hunt with them??? Like i said i shoot them alot. My newest 500 is less then 3 years old and has over 10000 rounds through it and i dont know how many my older 500 and 475 has through them or how many the two 500s ive sold did. I too shake my head at yuppies that buy 454s and go to the range and use them more to make noise and impress there groupys then to actually hit somethng. But i doubt to many guys that are bucking up for the 2 or 3 grand it costs to build a linebaugh are on that mentality level. If you cant handle one or dont want to put the time in, and it takes a lot, to master them then dont but dont call me nuts for enjoying it. Ive never been hurt by one and its only an idiot that would. Recoil is mostly a mental thing that just takes many rounds down range to convince your mind that your not being hurt. If you think there stunt guns pack up your 38 special and come an visit and ill put one of my 4 inch 500s up against you anytime in a little informal 25 yard off hand shoot. I even have a ruger 454 alaskan thats moon clipped that i once took to a ppc match as a joke and was talked into shooting a round with it. It took home third in the masters division.  Granted i was about 5 points off my normal best. But a 292/300 isnt a bad score for most guys with a clark ppc gun. Had to laugh though as i was told later that it was probably a secret weapon for ppc shooting as the other 4 guys on the line with me shot miserable scores. It was pretty hard for them to consentrate with that big yellow flame comeing out of my barrel and the concusion from that short barrel:fire:fire:P

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Lloyd Smale posted this 20 December 2007

Ill also make a comment on the 327. It isnt my cup of tea. But then i dont have a use for one. My 32 shooting is well served with 32 s&ws and 32 mags. But there are guys that do have a use for one. It would probably be the ultimate long range jackrabbit round in a sixgun. Ive also owned 30 carbines, there good guns. Sure there a little loud but no louder then a warm loaded 3220 in a sixgun or even a 357 mag out of a 4 inch barrel.

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CB posted this 23 December 2007

Whoa Lloyd;

    Seems you have had a stick banging on your cage bars a time or two. You must admit your romp on the PPC course might have been a bit much. Oh yeah most of us have splattered some deer carcass twenty feet past the entry wound. The animal didn't realize it was deader than the one killed with a clean shot to the head using a 38 caliber target cartridge. The root of the question is why. Every animal that a new cartridge has been developed to take, has been killed with a subsonic black powder firearm. Heck, most have been taken with an arrow.

    Here is a much bigger challenge than the one posed by you. Take the sights off a Red Ryder BB gun and shoot 2” x  2” targets at 25'. I shoot and win at state level in NRA Hunter Pistol Silhoutte. Big bore, iron sights is my division, 44 mag is my choice and I am not a big person.  How big would our shooting contingent be if the only gun and ammo available were a 454 Casul?

    Since you are internet capable, hunting is not the key to your survival. With the exception of self defense, shooting is a pastime like bowling or shuffle board. Let's keep this in perspective. Everyone has their own preferences, if you just want to argue more PM me.

                                                               Roy

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Lloyd Smale posted this 23 December 2007

I totaly agree with you that my “romp” on the ppc course was a stunt. Alot of the guys i shoot with know i shoot big bores and asked me one day if i thought i could shoot a respectable score with one so with there permission i gave it a shot and suprised even myself. It certainly isnt my weapon of choise for ppc shooting. Ive got a clark m10 for that. Like you said all manner of game has been taken with even a 22 but imo that doesnt make it a round capable of killing deer ethicaly. A 44 mag has been used to kill about every animal in the world in hunting situations but does that make it the ideal round for doing it? I personaly dont think so. When animals get about 500 lbs i like a little more thump. If we all used the metality in your post wed be hunting elephant with .243s. As anyone that hunts knows ideal circumstances rarely happen in the field. As to spattering deer carcass all over the woods. Ive shot a number of deer with the 500 and 475 and it does ALOT less meat damage then shooting one with a 243 or 250 sav. Like I said about what your actually doing is shooting the equivelent of a low power 4570 or a 50 cal muzzle loader load and i dont think to many people think that is overpowered for hunting. I appologize for not taking this to a pm as you suggested. I didnt for two reason. One is I dont really consider this an argument and I have no problem with your post. Another is I think its worth while to post this in public as theres lots of missconceptions about big bore handgun hunting that should be brought to lite. There not the cannons people think they are. As to the ego part of your post. I feel its alot more egotistical to take a 38 special out to hunt a deer then to take a gun that has the proper power level for the job. Ive shot 4 buffalo now with the 500s and 475s and even one with a 44mag handgun and ive watched a 1000 lb cow keep eating after two behind the shoulder shots with a 500. I really dont think that constitutes being overgunned. No doubt my ppc shoot was a stunt. It was just done for laughs but it does show that someone that wants to take the time to master a hard recoiling handgun can use one very effectively. Id like to see you show up at a linebaugh seminar someday. Youd find that you would have probably met the biggest bunch of non egotistical guys in one place then youve ever witnessed before. What youd find is a group of most dedicated handgunners in the country grouped together to share there tips and experiences and that are willing to take the time to sit for hours with a man that has never pulled the trigger on a handgun. To answer why? I could best say it like this. New cartridges come and go but if we had the attitude that newer cannot ever be better wed still be hunting with stone tipped spears. Im a dedicated shooter and love to shoot everything rifles big and small, handguns big and small, shotguns big and small and bows big and small. If it shoots i love it. Its certainly not my place to pass judgement on what other people consider fun. Ill leave that to the anti gun people.

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