"Why do manufacturers think successful cartridges should make your hand sting and ears ring?

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Ed Harris posted this 10 December 2007

With 87 replies and over 4300 reads, the “Popgun" thread must be a Guiness record holder in the cast bullet firearms world, but we should move it elsewhere, lest people think we are writing a book.  Who would have imagined it would be so popular?

So, I have started a new thread entitled:

"Why do manufacturers think that successful cartridges should make your hand sting and your ears ring?  Continuation of the “Pop-Gun / Bunny Gun” Thread: 

The requested parameters per Ed Harris

1) Pro or con discussion of the new .327 Federal Magnum,

2) Tales of woe or wisdom especially related to .30 Carbine revolvers

3) Other ear splitting small bore center-fires, such as the .30 Luger or .30 Mauser

4) Any other firearm, rifle, handgun, pistol, revolver, shotgun insert tube, etc. whose caliber designator first numerical digit is a “THREE” and whose second numerical digit is TWO or LESS!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 10 December 2007

Just to start the ball rolling, here is a reprise of my comments on the .327 Federal.

Feel free to add your own.   I'm anxious for the first test-fire report with cast bullets when somebody finally gets their hands on one of these puppies!

The .327 Federal ”€œ just another Federal flash in the pan? 

You may have read the hype - From the November, 2007 press release: “Federal has partnered with Ruger to introduce a new personal defense revolver cartridge designed to deliver 357 Magnum ballistics out of a 32-caliber diameter platform”€and with 20-percent less recoil. The 327 Federal Magnum”¦ designed for use in lightweight, small frame revolvers like the proven Ruger SP101”¦This allows shooters to chamber an additional round in their wheelgun”€six shots as opposed to the traditional five-shot cylinder offered in 38-Special and 357 Magnum guns”¦

“The 327 Federal Magnum is ideal for personal defense and has the potential for future application in field use”¦Ruger SP101 will shoot 32 H&R Magnum, 32 S&W and 32 S&W Long ammunition”€giving shooters four caliber offerings and a great, versatile product for target shooting and personal defense applications.

The ammunition will be available in three loads: ”¢ PD327HS1 H: Federal Premium 85-gr Hydra-Shokâ„¢ JHP (1330 fps muzzle velocity in 3-1/16â€? barrel) ”¢ AE327: American Eagle® 100-gr SP (1400 fps muzzle velocity in 3-1/16â€? barrel) ”¢ 23914 : Speer 115-gr Gold Dot® HP (1300 fps muzzle velocity in 3-1/16â€? barrel)

Ruger will offer the 327 Federal Magnum SP101 in a 3-1/16-inch barrel length and six-shot cylinder..adjustable rear site and satin stainless finish”¦available beginning in January of 2008. Federal and Ruger are hyping this as a defense gun for women, but I believe that the users they want to attract will be turned off by its noise, muzzle flash and recoil. I've trained my share of female CCW and this is the WRONG ANSWER!

I predict that this cartridge will go the way of the 9mm Federal in a few years, unless they promote it as a dual-purpose rifle-handgun, small game and varmint cartridge to replace the .32-20. 

The .327 “could” be what the .32 HRM “should” have been. It was unfortunate that the .32 HRM was designed around the weaker H&R revolver so that factory load pressures were limited to slightly above the .38 Spl. +P. Had the .32 HRM been designed from the git-go within the working design limits of the SP101 at ~30,000 psi, it would have been a horse of a different color, enabling .32-20 rifle performance from a 4” revolver.   

But factory HRM loads never lived up to the round's true potential in a strong, modern gun.  So it never really took off as it should have.

The .327 does provides an opportunity to “fix” this, but because of the pre-existing H&Rs they must lengthen the case to avoid its use in the weaker revolvers.  

While its is true that greater case capacity has advantages for rifle use, because it gives you more room to stuff more slow-burning powder in, this approach works poorly in handgun barrels shorter than about 5 inches.  This is because powders which work best in long barrels leave unburned powder residue, which gets under the extractor to jam DA revolvers, produces lower velocities due to incomplete burning and poor ballistic uniformity from “snubbyâ€? barrels favored for concealed defense carry.

The larger unused powder space which results when loading faster powders which are required for a “clean burn” in the short barrels, causes greater velocity and pressure variations caused by random powder positioning.  This also occurs in the .357 and .44 Magnum cases when you have small charges of fast powder “sloshing around” in them.  The effect of this upon accuracy s minimal within 25 yards, but greater vertical dispersion is very apparent at realistic "small game” ranges of 50 yards or more.  

I would think of the .327 Federal as a rimmed cal. .30 Carbine. The .30 Carbine Blackhawk was and still is still nasty and unpleasant to shoot with full loads.  Most people I know who own them load it down to the equivalent of a .32-20, which was about the greatest small game gun ever. 

But just imagine the sensory overload, ear splitting noise, dazzling muzzle flash and a sharp sting in the web of your hand shooting the ballistic equivalent of a .30 Mauser from a 3” revolver!

I would expect that the ammo will be neither plentiful, nor cheap. If .327 experience parallels that of the .38 Special v. .357 Magnum, accuracy experienced firing shorter .32 HRM and .32 S&W Long rounds in the longer .327 chamber will be inferior to using them in proper chambers dimensioned for them. 

The .327 would make a good modern replacement for the .32-20 Winchester by providing a well designed, strong, modern case, if suitable modern firearms were designed for it.

I would like to see the .327 offered in a trim, small game bolt action having proportions like the CZ .22 Hornet walking rifles, or an elegant, modern, single-shot “rook rifle” weighing about 5 pounds, with 24” barrel, paired with reasonable choices of trim, accurate revolvers for field use, such as the Single Six or an SP101 with a slender 4” barrel and Bowen Rough Country sights.

That could keep a potentially nice round from falling flat on its face. I don't see it taking off as a defense round.  But if we can get the French Army to adopt it there may be hope.

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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bruce posted this 10 December 2007

Ed,

To get the ball rolling on your theme question of:

 "Why do manufacturers think that successful cartridges should make your hand sting and your ears ring? ”

I will ask another question:

"Isn't the development of disatisfaction a basic building block of marketing?"

If gun and ammo manufacturers accepted the obvious truth that a S&W j-frame with .38 Special ammo was all the average citizen required in their pocket, we could then all go about our business paying little attention to  them.

As enthusiasts, however, we need to be constantly assaulted with new products to evaluate, criticize, then buy immediately or at least place on lay-away.

Now on ear-splitting dot-three-(x<3) handguns, what about the Tokarev round? (If it didn't already exist, ammo manufacturers would need to invent it. - think .32NAA)  The length of these puppies has kept them from becoming popular in pocket pistols, though. Would the new Federal .327 Magnum match it for velocity? Should I pass on the Romanian TT-33 and just keep saving for an SP101 in the new chambering?

One more question: Is there a shotgun liner available for one of the New England break opens that is good for .32 S&W Long or .32 H&R Mag? If so, could it be reamed a tad longer for the .327 Federal Magnum?

Bruce

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Ed Harris posted this 10 December 2007

Bruce,

Yes, the 7.62x25 is essentially a .30 Mauser variant and aptly included in our mix. I've had some success loading for the 1896 Mauser broomhandle with the .312 94-grain Meister and 4 grs of Bullseye, the minimum which would cycle the action. Accuracy only OK, but equalled milsurp ball ammo. Tried only a few in a friend's TT33 and needed 5 grs. of BE for reliability.

The TOKs are solid guns and great buy for the money. Hell for strong and milsurp ammo is cheap. Might need a weaker recoil spring if you shot alot of cast unless you HT the bullets.  Otherwise the heavier loads needed to cycle well may lead.

Hell yes, for $199 I would pop for the Romanian TT33 and with the money you save compared to the Ruger buy a zillion rounds of the milsurp ammo and enjoy it for a couple years.  No brainer.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=295741#>

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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bruce posted this 10 December 2007

Ed,

Thanks for the MCA tip. I just found their URL:

http://www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm

It looks like their products fit well into this discussion.

Bruce

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CB posted this 11 December 2007

Ed,

It's called a gimmick, driven by commerce of the free enterprise system, kind like the Cabbage Patch Kids. You chum the waters and set a frenzy to think everybody has to have one.  Like the S&W Ladysmith, Ruger needs a Ladyruger.

Consumers are gullible. They don't know Dirty Harry shooting his S&W 44 Magnum would have been deaf after shooting his third bad guy. Uzi clips never go empty while you shoot for an hour, all without carrying two cases of ammo to re-supply.

I used to collect animal traps, Oneida Newhouse, Diamond, Montgomery, etc. Looking back at the trap market 100 years ago, most trap innovations are gimmicks, after the consumer's pocket. Just like the Winchester 30-30 and the better mouse trap the 300 Savage. How long has this been going on anyway? Or rather, would you ever expect it to quit?:thinking:.................Dan

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RicinYakima posted this 11 December 2007

Dan, It is like panning for gold. You throw out a lot of black sand to a flake of gold. Remember S&W's gun of the month? I found two gold nuggets: the 625 4” in 45AR and the 32 HRM in TiLite. But then others think they are fools' gold! Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 12 December 2007

Nuggets or keeping the black sand?

My favorite flakes of black sand are two S&W Model 31s and a .32 Hand Ejector in .32 S&W Long I found and bought during the 20 years before I finally found the .32 NP Colt Police Positive 4-incher that I was actually looking for all that time when I started this bunny gun business! Mechanically sound, solid frame .32 revolvers seem to be scarce enough that I feel obligated to buy every one I find. Must be an affliction!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CB posted this 12 December 2007

So that's why I can't find one! Ed has them all...

I guess I will just treat my 30 carb like one, it seems to like being treated that way..

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RicinYakima posted this 12 December 2007

The second handgun I ever bought was a used Colt Cobra 4 inch in 32 NP. It is what started my illness for 32 pistols. At the time the only reloading I was doing was BP for the centennial of the “War of Southern Secession" guns that were being reproduced at the time. Ric 

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Ed Harris posted this 13 December 2007

Down here we call it the War of Northern Aggression...

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 13 December 2007

My father's family is from Kentucky and the part of Virgina that became the state of West Virgina. Most were staunch Unionists, but some fought on the Southern side. I don't know what is the politically correct terminology now. Growing up most of the old folks just called it “that damned war". But then I guess all civil wars are that, if you look at Iraq.

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JeffinNZ posted this 13 December 2007

Here's is my take.

All the new cartridges of late achieve little if anything in terms of what the average shooter is capable of.  All they do is give us some additional choices.  For example the .17 HMR is merely the .22 Hornet of the 21st century.  The .327 appears to do nothing that my .32-20 can't.  Yes, they are interesting and achieve some great results on paper but in terms of hunting I am in some doubt that the recipient is any the wiser as to what leveled it at what range.  Basically I am not likely to buy into it.

BUT...............and her is the important part..............whilst the market is bouyant the shooting industry is bouyant and the future of our sports is bouyant and THAT'S all that matters.

 

Cheers from New Zealand

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 14 December 2007

Ed, I'll bite.

I had a .30 Carbine Blackhawk.  Actually two of 'em.  I sold the first one after I decided that while quite accurate, it wasn't very practical.  It was WAY too noisy to attempt to shoot without ear protection.  Tried that once.

A fellow insisted he trade me another one for some unknown rifle I was trying to sell.  Another friend had just turned a Rem. 721 into a varmint rifle and gave me the .30-06 barrel.  I cut the chamber off, threaded it and screwed it onto the Blackhawk.  Alright, a 21” .30 Carbine, that ought to quiet it down!  Nope.  But with the 10” twist I could shoot 180 gr. CBs.

I finally traded into a .357 cylinder, bought a Douglas blank, and turned it into a very accurate .357 Mag.  Much more practical!

Glenn R Latham

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Mnshooter posted this 15 December 2007

Ed

I have a little Taurus fixed sight 32 Long that does what a 32 should for me even if only with a 3 inch barrel. I have shot grey squirrels with it under ideal conditions when I carried it as a second firearm. If I want to go bigger I use the 45 Colt in my Ruger Vaquero. Mostly my use for a pistol is in a 22. Personally, I think that the manufacturers are trying to create problems and solutions to sell more firearms, which is why they are in business. I also have a theory that tolerance to recoil and muzzle blast are not linear in nature, but that there are tolerance thresholds, where if one finds a 38 special too hard to shoot that going a little lighter with a hot 32 would not be the answer. The shooters reaction to the firearm discharge is usually that of a flinch if the weapon is too loud (which is as bad for some as recoil)or has excessive recoil. A flinch is a flinch and a near miss is as bad as a bad miss.

 The game of souping up small calibers to make them do what a bigger one can do better has been going on in both rifles and pistols since they developed cartridges. The pistol cartridges that really fascinate me are the new developments in big bore hunting pistols, as some of these generate ballistics that are impressive and would have a fair amount of recoil in rifles. I was told by a dealer that they are ported for control and that if you did not wear ear protection your ears would probably develop a permanent ringing sensation. They also weigh in as much as a dragoon pistol which was carried on a holster over the saddle and not on the person. Such is the power of marketing.

Mnshooter

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Tom Acheson posted this 15 December 2007

Don't forget the Dirty Harry movie..."the S&W .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world". Boy did that make people happy in S&W world headquarters. So many people bought them, fired not even a box of ammo and slid it into the dresser drawer. But they did have braggin' rights...."hey, I own of them new .44 Magnums!!!” What's one of the most often used answers at guns shows when you see a Model 29 sitting on a table when you ask why are you getting rid of it? “I find I just don't shoot it much anymore and it doesn't have very many rounds through it either"

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CB posted this 18 December 2007

Well Ed, my two cents. The reason is the same one that explains why we need 450 car models. Ego, plain and simple. Few women are clamoring for bigger more powerful handgun cartridges. Most men are hiding behind a blast wall in their minds when you mention Casul. S&Ws half incher sux. To look at, hold, fire and feed. Freedom arms makes fine firearms that most folks don't want to fire more than a cylinder full of. Just to stir things up, I'm gonna start a subsonic thread. I'll appreciate your comments.

                                                                                     Roy

 

*Dirty Harry shot “light specials". This was mentioned in the second Dirty Harry flick. Even Dirty Harry was shy about magnum loads.    

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Lloyd Smale posted this 20 December 2007

I shoot big bore handguns alot! Im not a masocist and am not a ego maniac. I hunt with them too. I never stop being amazed by uniformed people that call them elephant and dinasour killing weapons. If you look at the ballistics of a 500 linebaugh youd see its noting more then a black powder level 4570 and how many of you hunt with them??? Like i said i shoot them alot. My newest 500 is less then 3 years old and has over 10000 rounds through it and i dont know how many my older 500 and 475 has through them or how many the two 500s ive sold did. I too shake my head at yuppies that buy 454s and go to the range and use them more to make noise and impress there groupys then to actually hit somethng. But i doubt to many guys that are bucking up for the 2 or 3 grand it costs to build a linebaugh are on that mentality level. If you cant handle one or dont want to put the time in, and it takes a lot, to master them then dont but dont call me nuts for enjoying it. Ive never been hurt by one and its only an idiot that would. Recoil is mostly a mental thing that just takes many rounds down range to convince your mind that your not being hurt. If you think there stunt guns pack up your 38 special and come an visit and ill put one of my 4 inch 500s up against you anytime in a little informal 25 yard off hand shoot. I even have a ruger 454 alaskan thats moon clipped that i once took to a ppc match as a joke and was talked into shooting a round with it. It took home third in the masters division.  Granted i was about 5 points off my normal best. But a 292/300 isnt a bad score for most guys with a clark ppc gun. Had to laugh though as i was told later that it was probably a secret weapon for ppc shooting as the other 4 guys on the line with me shot miserable scores. It was pretty hard for them to consentrate with that big yellow flame comeing out of my barrel and the concusion from that short barrel:fire:fire:P

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Lloyd Smale posted this 20 December 2007

Ill also make a comment on the 327. It isnt my cup of tea. But then i dont have a use for one. My 32 shooting is well served with 32 s&ws and 32 mags. But there are guys that do have a use for one. It would probably be the ultimate long range jackrabbit round in a sixgun. Ive also owned 30 carbines, there good guns. Sure there a little loud but no louder then a warm loaded 3220 in a sixgun or even a 357 mag out of a 4 inch barrel.

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CB posted this 23 December 2007

Whoa Lloyd;

    Seems you have had a stick banging on your cage bars a time or two. You must admit your romp on the PPC course might have been a bit much. Oh yeah most of us have splattered some deer carcass twenty feet past the entry wound. The animal didn't realize it was deader than the one killed with a clean shot to the head using a 38 caliber target cartridge. The root of the question is why. Every animal that a new cartridge has been developed to take, has been killed with a subsonic black powder firearm. Heck, most have been taken with an arrow.

    Here is a much bigger challenge than the one posed by you. Take the sights off a Red Ryder BB gun and shoot 2” x  2” targets at 25'. I shoot and win at state level in NRA Hunter Pistol Silhoutte. Big bore, iron sights is my division, 44 mag is my choice and I am not a big person.  How big would our shooting contingent be if the only gun and ammo available were a 454 Casul?

    Since you are internet capable, hunting is not the key to your survival. With the exception of self defense, shooting is a pastime like bowling or shuffle board. Let's keep this in perspective. Everyone has their own preferences, if you just want to argue more PM me.

                                                               Roy

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Lloyd Smale posted this 23 December 2007

I totaly agree with you that my “romp” on the ppc course was a stunt. Alot of the guys i shoot with know i shoot big bores and asked me one day if i thought i could shoot a respectable score with one so with there permission i gave it a shot and suprised even myself. It certainly isnt my weapon of choise for ppc shooting. Ive got a clark m10 for that. Like you said all manner of game has been taken with even a 22 but imo that doesnt make it a round capable of killing deer ethicaly. A 44 mag has been used to kill about every animal in the world in hunting situations but does that make it the ideal round for doing it? I personaly dont think so. When animals get about 500 lbs i like a little more thump. If we all used the metality in your post wed be hunting elephant with .243s. As anyone that hunts knows ideal circumstances rarely happen in the field. As to spattering deer carcass all over the woods. Ive shot a number of deer with the 500 and 475 and it does ALOT less meat damage then shooting one with a 243 or 250 sav. Like I said about what your actually doing is shooting the equivelent of a low power 4570 or a 50 cal muzzle loader load and i dont think to many people think that is overpowered for hunting. I appologize for not taking this to a pm as you suggested. I didnt for two reason. One is I dont really consider this an argument and I have no problem with your post. Another is I think its worth while to post this in public as theres lots of missconceptions about big bore handgun hunting that should be brought to lite. There not the cannons people think they are. As to the ego part of your post. I feel its alot more egotistical to take a 38 special out to hunt a deer then to take a gun that has the proper power level for the job. Ive shot 4 buffalo now with the 500s and 475s and even one with a 44mag handgun and ive watched a 1000 lb cow keep eating after two behind the shoulder shots with a 500. I really dont think that constitutes being overgunned. No doubt my ppc shoot was a stunt. It was just done for laughs but it does show that someone that wants to take the time to master a hard recoiling handgun can use one very effectively. Id like to see you show up at a linebaugh seminar someday. Youd find that you would have probably met the biggest bunch of non egotistical guys in one place then youve ever witnessed before. What youd find is a group of most dedicated handgunners in the country grouped together to share there tips and experiences and that are willing to take the time to sit for hours with a man that has never pulled the trigger on a handgun. To answer why? I could best say it like this. New cartridges come and go but if we had the attitude that newer cannot ever be better wed still be hunting with stone tipped spears. Im a dedicated shooter and love to shoot everything rifles big and small, handguns big and small, shotguns big and small and bows big and small. If it shoots i love it. Its certainly not my place to pass judgement on what other people consider fun. Ill leave that to the anti gun people.

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Mnshooter posted this 24 December 2007

Unfortunately, the attitude that newer is better has also ruined a lot of sports. As a black powder club member member, I went to meetings with other club members as sponsiored by the MNDNR to have input on the black powder hunting seasons. Had most of us known that the modern zip guns would have taken over the sport we would not have bothered as they are contrary to everything we worked for. Muzzle loading to us was a historical sport in which we wanted to use weapons similar to that of our forefathers. The term “modern muzzleloader” is an oxymoron. Those companies that manufactured and marketed the “hunt with no fuss” type of weapon to take adavantage of the “special seasons” stabbed us in the back. In most cases I can do as well with a classic historical weapon as they do. It just takes the knowledge you talk about with big bores. Don't even get me started on the abominations they call compound bows. I had a 14 year old ask me if my longbow could even kill a deer. There is nothing wrong with shooting a more powerful weapon that one has mastered. The problem that has arised and what I think Ed is referring to is that over time we have seen an increase in what people think is needed. Blackbear and deer can be harvested cleanly with calibers less than a 300 mag,like a 30-30, and yet I know some that think they need 300 mags and would tell others that same thing. When the 44 magnum was king it got over extended by use on some pretty big and mean critters. It and the 41 are still adequate for critters up to 400 pounds or so within close range. It is when you start saying that they are not appropriate and that you need a 454 Casul to hunt deer then we get carried away. I remember a gun writer that stated that a round ball out of a muzzle loader is not adequate for any game so he had not ever used them. Sure couldn't prove it by the experiences I've had and some of my fellow black powder shooters had when we hunted with round balls and if he never used one how did he know? I killed deer with my longbow also. Some calibers do not make a lot of sense for some of us really. 32 handguns have not really been popular as they are bigger than needed for small game, not as good for personal defense as a bigger gun that isn't that much harder to shoot and not adequate for larger game. I used to hunt with a 45-70, but got tired of the recoil. I could shoot one, but could see no reason to send all that lead downrange when I could enjoy shooting a smaller caliber more, with less cost. To each his own.

Mnshooter

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Lloyd Smale posted this 24 December 2007

mnshooter I agree with most of what you said. Im the first to laugh when someone says such and such gun is not enough to kill a deer. Ive killed a few with even a 3220 and have to admit to kiling them with a 22. You will never hear me say that it takes more then a 44 mag to kill deer. Ive killed buffalo with them. My point is that me using a bigger gun sure doesnt hurt anything and sure doesnt hurt someone else. I dont believe in telling someone else what they should hunt with. Ive hunted with modern bows and recurves ive hunted with caplock and inline muzzle loaders. Because you dont think there appropreate doesnt give you or anyone else the right to tell someone else that what there using is wrong. I personaly think that all of the states including mine that have extra seasons for differnt weapons are wrong. What should be done is give a guy a set ammount of tags and let them kill the animal with what they want. I sure dont understand why a bow hunter or a muzzleloading hunter figures he deserves more hunting opertunity then the next gun. For the most part the States do it to rid the state of deer for the car insurance companys and lumber companys that lobby to get rid of the deer. If you like your traditional bow or your traditional muzzle loader and thats what you want to hunt go for it. But jumping up and down and saying that someone elses hunting methods are wrong is just feeding the anti hunting and anti gun people. Me i choose to handgun hunt. Which is probably more challenging then using any black powder rifle but i dont lobby for an extra season for handgun hunting. I hunt with what i choose and even do my blackpowder hunting with a handgun. I too shake my head at a whitetail hunter that thinks he needs a 300 mag to kill a deer at a 100 yards when in all reality a 308 is probably overpowered for the job. Being a member of this fourm I take it you understand cast bullets and how they kill and if you do i cant see how you can possibly claim that even a 500 linebaugh is going to tear up a deer. Sure it bucks and roars and sure not everyone can take that but if a guy can theres nothing wrong with using one. It actually makes alot more sense then a mag rifle that destroys half the meat on an animal. If you dont understand how big bore handguns and rifles kill with cast bullets the i can see how a guy could believe its wrong and if a guy cant handle the recoil of a big bore handgun or rifle, thats fine too. Just dont use one. I actually give you a hell of a lot more credit for admitting it then i give to guys that take them into the field that cant handle them (and theres a lot that fit that catagory) I guess my main point is a guy should judge what someone else is hunting with as long as he can ethicaly take an animal with it. If a law or rule hurts you, like you think modern muzzle loaders do you have to keep in mind that you are in the minority and there not going to change the laws that a 100 people like because one guy doesnt.

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Lloyd Smale posted this 24 December 2007

ps i guess i will drop out of this post. I dont want to cause any friction here. Ive stated my opinion (for what its worth) and its no more valuable then someone elses opinion.

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51 Colt posted this 27 December 2007

This is my first post. I have really enjoyed the popgun thread :dude: 

I shoot a modest 32cal. a Russian 1895 Nagant.  Mine was made in 1926 in all most new condition and it cost me a hundred dollars a few years ago. It is chambered for the 7.62x38r cartridge. Which can be bought mail order but is a little pricey. Most people shoot 32S&W Longs or 32H&R Mags in the little Nagant they fit loose some guys rap them with scotch tape to tighten them up some. The cases do bulge and you do get some split cases. I bought a 32ACP cylinder for my Nagant and i have been shooting factory 32ACP. I would like to start reloading 32ACP with cast bullets any suggestions on bullets, powers and how deep to seat the bullets would be appreciated. OAL is not a problem their is a lot of room in the cylinder. The bore sluged out at .313. I have a set of Lee dies that sizes 32-20 brass to fit the original cylinder. The  load i have been using is a .314 90gr HBWC 3 1/2 gr Unique with the bullet seated almost flush crimped with a M1 Carbine Lee factory crimp die. This load shoots all right but does not burn all the power. If anyone has any thoughts on a good load for this case i would  appreciate it. There is not much reloading info for this gun most people use starting 32H&R Mag loads.  I have  one last question i was reading in the Dixie Gun Works Catalog  about reloading once fired cases by reprimeing them and filling them with fff black power leaving enough room to seat a muzzleloading ball with your thumb. Has anyone here tried this if so what did you think of it.

 

Mike

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Ed Harris posted this 27 December 2007

Reloading the .32 ACP with cast bullets is easy. A “recipe” which works well for me in several WWII-era auto pistols is the Meister 94-gr. lead FN .312” and 1.7 to 1.8 grs. of Alliant Bullseye, seated to 0.98” cartridge OAL, same as factory hardball. Titegroup would also be good, at 1.5-1.8 grs. don't exceed 1.8. This gives about 780 f.p.s., cycles the gun well and drops cases at your feet. In the Nagant revolver you could increase the charge to 2.0 grs. but this is a bit “hot” for blowback operated autopistols. The Lee 93-gr. LRN, Saeco #325 or RCBS 32-90CM bullets could be substituted.

For your Nagant revolver get the Lee .314 diameter push-through sizer and simply tumble-coat the bullets in either Lee Liquid Alox or Rooster Jacket. Wheelweight alloy is fine. If using the Lee dies with fire-formed .32-20 brass use 3 grs. of Bullseye or Titegroup with either of the above bullets.

I wouldn't fool with blackpowder in these, because you have the .32 ACP cylinder or dies to use fire-formed .32-20 brass in your original cylinder, so you have all the right tools already.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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51 Colt posted this 27 December 2007

Think you Ed for your advice i am going to buy some Bullseye and give it a try. I have not cast any bullets yet i just bought a lee pot now i just need some molds and i can started casting.

I really like your bunny gun concept rifle.

Mike

 

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Ed Harris posted this 27 December 2007

Have fun and please let us know how this does. Please post some photos to the forum. In particular I would like to hear about how the cast .32 ACP loads work in the Nagant revolver. These come around at gun shows occasionally and if they are a good cheap bunny gun one may get added to the armory!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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51 Colt posted this 28 December 2007

Ed, what do you think about these bullets for my Nagant (32acp), 30/30 for a 94 Winchester and my M1 universal carbine http://www.grafs.com/metallic/product/162286>http://www.grafs.com/metallic/product/162286 It would be great if i could use one bullet  and powder  for all of these i was thinking Bullseye. Maybe even my Yugo 59/66 SKS i could turn off the gas system and shoot it as a bolt gun?

Mike

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Ed Harris posted this 02 January 2008

This looks like the same Magma Engineering design as the Meister 94-gr. I have been using. Should be just fine.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Awf Hand posted this 02 January 2008

To answer the topic heading question...

It is in the manufacturers' interest to sell product. They sell product by making people excited about a product. They get people excited about a product by designing and building something that has never been built before.

A reworked “special” doesn't get anybody excited.

The way that manufacturers have gone is down and up from the conventional “bracket” of cartridge offerings -ie. 17's and >44's

Generally, people who take issue with what the manufacturers are producing are perfectly content with the existing range of calibers offered and may want a slightly different “configuration” of the platforms for those calibers.
Not much “excitement” there.

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fa38 posted this 02 January 2008

<<<<It is in the manufacturers' interest to sell product. They sell product by making people excited about a product. They get people excited about a product by designing and building something that has never been built before.

A reworked “special” doesn't get anybody excited.

The way that manufacturers have gone is down and up from the conventional “bracket” of cartridge offerings -ie. 17's and >44's

Generally, people who take issue with what the manufacturers are producing are perfectly content with the existing range of calibers offered and may want a slightly different “configuration” of the platforms for those calibers. Not much “excitement” there.>>>>

Awf

I wonder if they do that with beer?

 

 

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51 Colt posted this 03 January 2008

Thanks again Ed i ordered 200 of those bullets to try. Their is a place i like to buy powder at called Sportsmen's Warehouse they sell Alliant powder for 15.00 a pound i bought some Red Dot they were out of Bullseye. I will go back next week and see if they got some more in. I did load 2.9gr Red Dot in resized 32-20 brass with 90gr HBWC for my 1895 Nagant. I hope to try them out this week end.

Mike

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Ed Harris posted this 03 January 2008

Red Dot runs faster than Bullseye and requires about a 10 percent reduction in most cases.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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william iorg posted this 05 January 2008

Ric, I loved the gun of the Month program. We budgeted for guns and bought them as fast as we could. We have four different S&W's chambered for the .32 H&R Mag and would have two additional if we could have got there in time”¦. We will probably never see exciting times like those again. I wrote to S&W after we bought our dull black Model 36 with 3â€? barrel and adjustable sights urging them to bring out this gun out in .32 H&R Mag for handgun hunters and woods loafers. S&W wrote a nice reply and said there was simply no market.

 

Ed, we have a 3� Model 31 in .32 S&W Long and it is great fun with everything from wax and round balls on up. We don't hot rod it, we just have fun.

 

We have a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 Carbine and a Buckeye Ruger in .32 H&R Mag/.32-20. As small game hunters we try out everything that looks promising. We have found the .32 Mag the easiest to load for and work with overall. The early Federal brass had a bad habit of splitting up the side and this was frustrating until Starline came out with good brass and saved the cartridge.

The only other “problemâ€? with the .32 Mag is the brass was not designed for full power loads using the 115-grain bullets. Full power loads in the S&W Model 14 or the Ruger SSX Bisley will loosen primer pockets in less than six loads. We think we need the full power heavy bullet loads for raccoons and porcupine.

We are hoping the .327 Federal will have a bit stronger brass and the initial reviews indicate it will. The new brass should bring the cartridge into its own as a medium power small game cartridge.

It is a different subject for discussion but the .357 Magnum carbines are quite popular for evening and night use on jack rabbits as not every shot is a guaranteed hit and it puts fun back into varminting. The “advantageâ€? of the .32 H&R Magnum is on the dense critters the bullet will stop in the body and we don't have as many bullets whining out across the field ”€œ it still happens and we use caution shooting up into tress. The .32 Magnum does not tear big bloody holes in things and this sets a little better with my wife who wants to kill a critter but prefers to not cut it in two.

 

We have a 24� .32 H&R Magnum TC barrel and the Marlin 1894 rifle. Both are very good small game rifles with a slight advantage going to the TC barrel as it is quieter, is capable of using quite heavy spitzer bullets for the caliber and is considerably lighter than the Marlin rifle with its octagonal barrel.

 

I for one will purchase the .327 Federal and hope that S&W will produce a few revolvers for the cartridge. I don't want anything that is ultra light as I cannot shoot the ultra light handguns well in the field (we have a S&W 317 Airlight .22lr Kit Gun and the blue box it came in weighs more than the gun) and I do not want to any of the plastic optic sights.

Slim

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Duane Trusty posted this 08 April 2008

Help

I have a question for anyone out there about the cylinder throats in a Ruger 30 Carbine. It seems the one I have the throats a little small (close to .306 with a .3085 barrel). So anyone know of anyone who could ream the throats to say .309 to .310.

The gunsmith on the net will ream to .314 for 32 S&W not 30 Carbine size.

Please do not suggest the wood dowel and emory clothe trick as it a good way to bell the mouth on the cylinder.

This is all so a 3 screw so having Ruger due another cylinder is out of the question.

Thanks for the help.

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RicinYakima posted this 09 April 2008

This should be a piece of cake for any “good” gunsmith with a mill and a 30 caliber rifle  throating reamer. Most “match” reamers are .309 and standard ones are .310. Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 09 April 2008

RicinYakima wrote: This should be a piece of cake for any “good” gunsmith with a mill and a 30 caliber rifle  throating reamer. Most “match” reamers are .309 and standard ones are .310. Ric Agree.  I did this with my early Single Six .32 HRM which had tight cylinder throats.  Using a standard .30 cal. sporting rifle throater the nominal .310 reamer produced uniform cylinder throats of .3104 which was a big improvement over the .3085 they originally were.  Barrel slugged .310 groove and this “fix” gave ideal performance with cast.   I still have the gun.

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Duane Trusty posted this 09 April 2008

Thanks for the help on the Ruger in 30 Carbine problem.

Duane

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bruce posted this 16 May 2011

A mere 3-1/2 years go by and I finally popped for a Tokarev. The Yugo M57's were selling last month at Aim Surplus for under $200. I haven't even fired the thing yet, but I am getting ready to enjoy that ear-splitting sound for slightly less than hearing it from a .327 Federal Magnum.

I will try to report back within the next several years. It is always good to recycle these old threads!

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4570sharps posted this 16 May 2011

Magnum Mania!

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argie1891 posted this 17 May 2011

i own 3 32 magnum handguns. a ruger bisley, smith 2 inch carry gun, and a nagant revolver rechambered to 32 mag. a 32 long hand ejector. a shotgun converted to 32 mag. and recently bought a 327 federal now i would have bought another 32 mag but no one is making them anymore. i plan on shooting 32 long and 32 mag only. joe gifford aka argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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Ed Harris posted this 17 May 2011

How well is the .327 Federal doing for you? You say you are using .32 H&R Mag. and .32 S&W Long in it, what sort of accuracy are you getting in the longer chamber? Have you worked up any cast bullet handloads in the .327 brass? Are any cases available yet besides paying $1 a shot or more for federal ammo? Inquiring minds would like to know, PLEASE!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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william iorg posted this 17 May 2011

Ed,

We certainly restricted our initial shooting with the 327 Federal due to the lack of brass. As you point out, shooting factory ammunition is an expensive way to acquire brass. My wife and I are certain the 327 Federal will make the grade as a defense handgun. We hope it will find favor with the Kitgun and varminter in time. It has taken the 32 Magnum a long time to develop the “almost mainstream following” but it is getting there - and doing it with very few new revolvers on the market.

We have the 32 Magnum for 100-grain and lighter bullets. We see the 327 Federal as at its best with 115-grain and heavier bullets.

We live in pecan country and the raccoons are a menace. This is sheep and goat country and we have feral dog and coyote problems. The 22 Hornet, 218 Bee and 25-20 WCF will do the deed under ideal conditions but when the shooting is “catch as catch can,' running off the back porch with a coat in one hand and a rifle in the other they come up short.

The 327 Federal has the bullet weight and velocity for the quick shots when the critter has a good coat of hair in winter.

We are shooting the NEI #82 gas check bullet with a nominal weight of 122-grains. This is the gas check version of the bullet you use and it exhibits good accuracy and deep penetration. When I miss the bunny's body at 50-yards from a squatting position, it is my fault.

We also shoot the NEI #76 125-grain bullet. We are not certain if we get best accuracy with this SWC bullet from deep or shallow seating, whether we are seating in the lower or top crimp groove does affect maximum loads.

Other than showing off, we do not load for highest velocity. Depending on what we are intending to shoot we load these bullets between 1,170 fps and 1,400 fps. While this seems like a wide spread it depends on whether we are using Hodgdon 110, Lil Gun or Alliant 2400, all three powders will deliver good accuracy with the heavy bullets from the Ruger Blackhawk or GP100.

You can load the 327 Federal to higher velocity but the noise levels climb dramatically. We have a sound meter and I will take some Db readings for you. We have not lost a 327 case to date.

We have not tried any “reduced” loads in the 327 brass but I have several powders on hand which should the bill.

While Marlin does need to consider producing a round barrel Model 1894, I am concerned about MSRP as they are climbing. I don't know what the street price is but $800- or $900 dollars for a small game rifle is the kiss of death. I would hope Savage would look at an investment cast 44 or 44 ½ action with a low cost stock and no serious frills - good sights could be added later. A half octagon barrel might make scope mounting a little easier.

Slim

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argie1891 posted this 17 May 2011

i havent shot with 327 ammo as i cant get brass. my 327 is a charter patriot it seems to shoot well but my ruger bisley will out shoot it. the charter is getting better the more i shoot it. i think the bore has some tool marks and i am getting them smoothed up by shooting it. sure wish i could find some 327 brass if anyone hears that they are available let me know. joe gifford

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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william iorg posted this 18 May 2011

327 Federal brass is available from Freedom Arms. http://www.freedomarms.com/

We have a4” Charter Arms Patriot. This is the revolver S&W should make. Our revolver is a good gun but the sights are not finished. The rear sight notch was too small. The front sight is frosted stainless steel and is difficult to see when shooting outdoors. The fron sight would be better if it were a black pinned in blade. The sight is not serrated and this causes problems with the sun at your back.

Slim

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Ed Harris posted this 18 May 2011

Thanks, good info all.

My next upcoming project is to have relined an Army & Navy Cooperative Society rook rifle, built on a Tranter patent side-lever action, relined to .32 S&W Long in .311 groove diameter with 16 inch twist.

Gun is tiny, weighs about 4-1/2 pounds, was originally a .255, but bore is poor and gun was inexpertly rechambered to .25-20 Winchester despite bore and groove dimensions and twist being wrong. Was sloppily restamped over the original engraved caliber markings, scope block holes drilled in top barrel flat and a tap broken off in one of the holes!

BUT, if the gun hadn't been so screwed up, I could not have gotten it so cheap.... So I plan on having John Taylor reline, rechamber, weld up the boo boos, restrike the barrel flats, restore the engraved markings and rust blue the barrel.

Will take some before and after picsl.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 18 May 2011

Looking forward to pictures!

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hunterspistol posted this 29 May 2011

:coffee    Here's a test and review: http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-SP101-327.htm>http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-SP101-327.htm 

      He seems to think it'll make a good trail gun, has enough power to make it for self defense.   I've read this several times and it makes me wonder.  I have 32-20 and 32 mag in TC Contenders and one of the old NEF 32 mag revolvers.  All of them would be easy on lead and powder.

 

     My newest project, that isn't ear-splitting, is last year's re-introduced 44 Flattop Special.   This cartridge is a joy to shoot.  It would make a fine defense weapon, great trail gun, any application you can think of.  Whoever talked Ruger into bringing the 44 S&W Special back out in the New Model Blackhawk did us all a favor.  If you haven't tried this big one, you should.  It's as nice as it gets.  The dimensions seem very well fine tuned and it groups at 15 yards straight out of the box.  I never got the opportunity to even buy factory for it, probably never need it.

      My previous project was the 41 Remington Magnum.     It does make your hand sting and your ears ring, all the while traveling 100-150 yards at somewhere around 1400 fps.  It's pure, savage, magnum performance.

     Ron

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51 Colt posted this 11 October 2013

I know this is a old post but i wanted to tell Ed that the hard cast 93gr bullets shot great from both the 32acp cases and the 32-20 cases. Your 32acp data was spot on. 3gr of Bullseye in the 32-20 cases shot fine but were not very accurate. I tried 3.5gr of Trail Boss next and it was very accurate. Last month i bought a Lee 90gr .314 TL SWC mold and have been having a lot of fun with it. I have using air cooled dental film lead and have been sizing them .314 and lubing them with 45/45/10 lube. The 32acp/ Bullseye loads shot well with this bullet same with the 32-20/Trail Boss loads. Last night i loaded a few 32-20 cases with 2gr of Bulleye and seated the bullet below the case mouth like a 7.62x38r load to try. I have all so bee loading Flocchi Nagant brass using Lee Nagant dies. I was able to full size the gas seal brass by removing the decapping pin. I start seating the bullet in the Nagant seating die as far as it will go then i swap out the seating stem (a screw) for sizing stem out of a Lee .309 sizing kit. I remove the flair and crimp using the sizing die with out the decapping pin. I loaded them with 2.7gr of unique. They shot well it felt like i was shooting a 32 auto. They shot much better than the Flocchi gas seal ammo. I want to try Bulleye in the Flocchi cases how does 1.8gr sound for a starting load. I all so tried the same 90gr bullet in my Chinese SKS with 3gr of bullseye i was able to shoot one raged hole groups at 25yd. I think it would be a good bunny load.

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Ed Harris posted this 12 October 2013

Sounds like you you are on the right track. The 1.8 sounds good for a start load deep seated the Nagant cases. If you get that one working well please work up a short article on the Nagant revolver for the Fouling Shot. If you also have the .32 ACP cyli nder for the Nagant, also would like to know how those do.

Inquiring minds want to know!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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51 Colt posted this 15 October 2013

I am doing a lot of experimenting with M95 Nagant loads and i was looking at my Nagant 32acp cylinder it looks like their is room for a 32 S&W case maybe a 32 S&W long case i was wondering if anyone has one each of these cases they can spare.I am willing to pay for them as well as the postage.

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Shadowdog posted this 27 October 2013

At my age, I'm much happier shooting my 4” S&W 629 with Lyman 429383 round nose's at barely 700fps. The magic of the BOOM and jump of the muzzle have worn off some years ago.

A 4” blued S&W J frame in .32 S&W long with wadcutters and a wee bit of Red Dot seems right for me these days, but I just can't shake the big bores.

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hunterspistol posted this 27 October 2013

On the same thought, I used 1.4 grains of Bullseye in my little NEF 32 magnum. Of course, I've been using the RCBS 32-098-SWC for everything. It seemed to hit very accurately out to 50 yards but, I thought it a bit soft to shoot all the time.

 It did, however, really work.

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Shadowdog posted this 15 December 2013

As of about six months ago, I've turned my attention to cast round nose bullets in my revolvers with light accurate charges of fast burning powders. For the most part I've turned my .44 Magnum into a .44 Russian. What a pleasure they are to shoot too!

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Tom Acheson posted this 15 December 2013

I'm with Shadowdog on the big bores. My favorite is my 4” fixed sight S&W Model 58 in .41 Mag. 9-grains of 4756 under a H&G 220-grain KT and the fun is on!

Tom

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Spud posted this 29 January 2014

I have an opinion on the OP. People will try to make lower powered cartridges do more than they're designed to do (+p, +p+, etc.) So they design the stingers for those who have something to shoot after they blow up (or prematurely wear out) their other guns with hot loads. Just a theory.

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M3 Mitch posted this 28 September 2015

Interesting that to my ear anyway (using ear plugs of course) I don't find the 30 Luger any louder than the 9mm. It would be reasonable to think the lower expansion ratio would make it louder, but if so I can't tell. I have found the 30 to be easy to get to shoot accurately, using an old time Lyman 93 grain round nose cast bullet.

Now the .32-20 - in my old 7.5” Bisley - that is a loud revolver! Really sharp crack to the report, and one needs to keep the “off” hand well clear of the cylinder to barrel gap, as unburnt powder grains come out at a speed good enough to embed in your skin. Never mind how I know that!

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Ed Harris posted this 03 October 2015

RicinYakima wrote: Looking forward to pictures! I may have posted the after pictures elsewhere, but wanted to dust off this thread.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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M3 Mitch posted this 05 October 2015

That's a darn nice rook rifle! What kind and power is the scope?

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Ed Harris posted this 05 October 2015

Unertl 6X Small Game.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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