Cast BulletsI In Self Defense Hand Guns

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mashburn posted this 18 November 2020

I think it would be interesting to know how many cast bullet shooters actually shoot cast bullets in their personal self defense handguns .I carry a 1911 .45 ACP as my personal self defense weapon. And  yes, I do carry it loaded with handloads which contain 230gr. round nose cast bullets. My brother-in-law who is a very experienced  re-loader, won't put his reloads in his .45.I see people buying high dollar ammo to put in their self defense handguns. I trust my hand loads to function and they do. If you have ever had the misfortune of having to fire on another person using a .45 ACP or  witnessed the results of such, you will know what an old .45 hardball slug will do, and I expect a cast bullet will do even better. The army supposedly went to the 9mm because of recoil. We must be recruiting some troops that are a lot different from the ones, with which  I served. I know that 9mm Ammo is much lighter, but I'm not carrying hundreds of rounds. I have people ask me why I carry an old antiquated .45. My answer is always the same. I say because I don't have a .50.(I stole that statement from another person but have been using it for decades

I wouldn't suggest using light target loads in your .45 for defense. If I have to shoot someone, I don't want to just tick him off, I want to put him down for keeps. I load with all of the velocity that I can get while still maintaining accuracy. And by the way, I've found very, very little loss in accuracy between my cast loads and the best jacketed bullets that I have fired. The only thing that I plan on changing is the next casting of bullets will be polymer coated. (See what a good influence that John has been on me, I can't let myself say powder coated anymore. Ha)

I don't know about cast bullets in some of the pop guns that are carried for defense purposes. I'm like most women that I have know over the years. They all say bigger is better. I probably shouldn't have said that OOOPS

I hope to hear from you who carry cast lead in the defense weapons and any other interesting information. PS-I load with Titegroup powder.

WHEN I STARTED THIS POST, I HAD NO IDEA THAT IT WOULD TAKE OFF ON THIS TANGENT. MY INTENTION WAS TO FIND OUT WHO USED CAST BULLETS IN THEIR DEFENSE HANDGUNS AND WHAT THESE GUNS WERE AND WHAT THEY LOADED THEM WITH. I AM WELL AWARE OF THE COURT CASE THAT HAS BEEN STATED SEVERAL TIMES. I AM A FREE AMERICAN AND HOPE TO STAY THAT WAY. I GUESS IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE AS TO WHAT STATE YOU LIVE IN AS TO YOUR OUTLOOK ON THINGS SUCH AS THIS. I HAD NO CONCERNS WHEN I STARTED LOADINNG DEFENSE WEAPONS WITH HAND LOADED CAST, AND STILL DON'T. BEING PROSECUTED  BY A OVER ZELAOUS D.A. DOESN'T ENTER MY MIND IF I EVER HAVE TO FIRE ON SOMEONE, AND THE ONLY WAY I WOULD DO THAT IS IF THEY WERE TRYING TO DO HARM TO MY FAMILY, I CARE NOTHING ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF DOING SO WITH WHATEVER AMMO I USE .HOWEVER, IT DOES MAKE ME FEEL BETTER KNOWING THAT I LIVE IN A STATE WHERE EVERY COUNTY VOTED RED.

I'VE BEEN EXPOSED TO THE CHINESE VIRUS AND MY DOCTOR PUT ME ON A PRESCRIPTION OF CHLORAQUINACAN-ZINC-D3 AND VITAMIN C TRYING TO WARD IT OFF. THAT WAS THREE DAYS AGO AND I'M NOT FEELING TOO WELL AT THE MOMENT. MY GRAND DAUGHTER AND MY SON ARE BOTH ENDURING IT PRESENTLY. SO DEPENDING ON HOW I  PROGRESS WILL AFFECT MY RESPONSES.

MASHBURN

David a. Cogburn

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Dean D. posted this 18 November 2020

Most of my home defense weapons are loaded with cast.  My weapon of choice is a new model RBH in 45 LC, it stays loaded with 255gr RNFP's from a 454190 SC mold on an original 1884 patent Lyman tong tool.  I only load condom bullets when out in bear country and then the 300gr JHP's snuggle up to it. 

I do have one of those new fangled John Browning designed automatic pistols the Govt. used but haven't taken the time to work up loads for either type of bullet.  But heh, pistols were never my forte.  To each their own I guess <shrug>

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mashburn posted this 18 November 2020

Hello Dean D.

Thanks for your response. Glad to hear from another with cast bullet fodder in his handgun. I like all firearms handgun and long gun but maybe it's the DNA of some of my past relatives who weren't exactly too law abiding that gave me my love for handguns, especiially revolvers. But after carrying a 1911 in the Army for 7 years,, I have a a great big sweet spot for it also. The 1911 is very good at doing what it was designed for.

Thanks for your response,

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 18 November 2020

Issues arise in court both on the criminal & civil side when you use any handloads for self defense. Any lawyer or for that matter expert witnesses such Massad Ayoob will advise against this. No law enforcement agency I know of allows their officer to carry handloaded ammo. The argument will be that you made the ammo to be deadlier or to injure more seriously that factory ammo, no matter how ridiculous that sounds to you or me. So for self defense, your own ammo with jacketed or cast bullets is not wise.     

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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max503 posted this 18 November 2020

I trust my reloads.  Enough said?  That Massad Ayoob thing doesn't concern me too much.  

I knew a guy who would make exploding bullets.  If you do something like that, or put garlic or poison in your bullet, that might be an issue for a lawyer, but otherwise I don't think so.

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sergeant69 posted this 18 November 2020

Issues arise in court both on the criminal & civil side when you use any handloads for self defense. Any lawyer or for that matter expert witnesses such Massad Ayoob will advise against this. No law enforcement agency I know of allows their officer to carry handloaded ammo. The argument will be that you made the ammo to be deadlier or to injure more seriously that factory ammo, no matter how ridiculous that sounds to you or me. So for self defense, your own ammo with jacketed or cast bullets is not wise.     

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sergeant69 posted this 18 November 2020

ok. can you cite a courtcase where this has actually happened? be interesting to know the details. and outcome.

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Tom Acheson posted this 18 November 2020

I have read a few times that the explanation about "wanting to injure more severely" is not true. A good friend, a local police officer, also refuted the story.

You could always say you used handloads instead of factory ammo because the factory ammo might be infected with Covid from all the handling along the way and it wouldn't be good to purposely infect the person you shoot....ha!

Tom

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beagle6 posted this 18 November 2020

I carry a snub nose 38 loaded with wadcutters and loaded to +P . These are ones I cast, not the soft swaged commercial and are fairly hard.. Truthfully, if I am shooting for my life, I don't care if I lead the barrel. Also, it looks like target ammo.

beagle6

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beagle6 posted this 18 November 2020

Think I'll worry about staying alive first and lawyers later..

beagle6

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GBertolet posted this 18 November 2020

One other reason for using factory ammo, is that the police forensic scientists, can duplicate the terminal performance of your ammo, if necessiary, from a shooting. Most major crime labs, have samples of most all factory ammo in their inventory to do this. If it is a good SD shooting, this can under some circumstances, exonerate you from false accusations, from hostile witnesses, such as in Ferguson Missouri for example. If handloads are used, dependent on what ammo they can recover, this becomes much more difficult to accomplish. With factory ammo the police have a repeatable baseline to work from. With handloads????

Although claims of being sued are out there, I have never heard of any specifics, of anyone being successfully sued over a righteous shooting, over the use of handloads.

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 18 November 2020

Yall are missing the point. The issue with handloads is not the crux or main basis for prosecution or lawsuits, it is just more ammunition against you. Yes there has been no cases where the use of handloads is the main issue, but when it has happened, this is pointed out and used by the opposition in wrongful death suits and criminal prosecutions. 

Why make it easier to prosecute or sue you when really good factory ammo is available. If the situation arises that I must defend myself or others and have handloads in my gun, then that is what i will use. But purposely loading my gun with handloads is foolish. 


https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/what-are-the-legal-implications-of-handloading-ammo/

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 18 November 2020

Tom,

So one friend a local cop tells you one thing, I am a retired cop and I tell you another thing, so who's right. Research the facts, ask a prosecutor and a defense attorney that specializes in defending the cases. Talk to a expert witness like Ayoob who has testified in court many times. See what answers you will get then. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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beagle6 posted this 18 November 2020

There are a lot of people who make their living writing about or making videos about gun fights who have never been in one. There were nights in Vietnam when I slept with a 45 in my hand. I'm sure some Know it all will tell me how unsafe I was. Of course it was unsafe, but not as unsafe as fumbling for my weapon while someone sticks a bayonet in me. If any of you really want to know about shootouts and the aftermaths, get a copy of "Guns Bullets And Gunfights" by Jim Cirello. (Amazon) He was on the NYPD Stakeout Squad and survived 17 close range gunfights.

beagle6

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RicinYakima posted this 18 November 2020

Some of it depends upon what state you live in and their particular laws. In my state, if you were justified in shooting someone, it doesn't' matter what you used. If it was justified, there are no civil suits. But that is only where I live. Where my brother lives, there will be civil suits if you shoot a burglar in your own house. Depends. FWIW

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Squid Boy posted this 19 November 2020

I carry handloads loaded with Speer 230 grain Gold Dots in my FNP-45. I still remember what the Chief told me when he handed me my carry permit about forty years ago. "If you have to shoot, I only want to talk to you when I get there". Squid Boy

"Squid Pro Quo"

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Tom G posted this 19 November 2020

I think a lot of chiefs think that way.  Back in the 70's I had a chief of police look at me one day and said:  " Tom, If you shoot somebody make sure they're dead.  I don't want to hear two stories"  Oddly enough, he was fired a few months later for swapping the new battery in his take home police car for the worn out  one in his family car. He was no the best chief we ever had.....   

 

I carry Hornady Critical Defense in my LC9 because of it's passing the FBI penetration and expansion tests and it's nickel plated which keeps it corrosion free.  In Michigan, you can be sued and having a defense atty. go after your ammo is just another area where they can confuse the jury.  Most Concealed carry classes advise the students to carry factory ammo and not reloads for that reason. 

 

Tom G.    Retired Sheriff Sgt. and police helicopter pilot. 

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mashburn posted this 19 November 2020

Hello Squid Boy,

Thanks for the response. You and I could probably become friends if we knew each other.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 19 November 2020

Hello Rick,

Thanks for the response and you made a very good point about where you live having an effect on self defense matters.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 19 November 2020

Hello beagle6,

Thanks for your response. I don't know what part of the country you live in, but you share some of my past experiences and some of the same outlooks.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 19 November 2020

Hello beagle6,

Great comment.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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