Cast BulletsI In Self Defense Hand Guns

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mashburn posted this 3 weeks ago

I think it would be interesting to know how many cast bullet shooters actually shoot cast bullets in their personal self defense handguns .I carry a 1911 .45 ACP as my personal self defense weapon. And  yes, I do carry it loaded with handloads which contain 230gr. round nose cast bullets. My brother-in-law who is a very experienced  re-loader, won't put his reloads in his .45.I see people buying high dollar ammo to put in their self defense handguns. I trust my hand loads to function and they do. If you have ever had the misfortune of having to fire on another person using a .45 ACP or  witnessed the results of such, you will know what an old .45 hardball slug will do, and I expect a cast bullet will do even better. The army supposedly went to the 9mm because of recoil. We must be recruiting some troops that are a lot different from the ones, with which  I served. I know that 9mm Ammo is much lighter, but I'm not carrying hundreds of rounds. I have people ask me why I carry an old antiquated .45. My answer is always the same. I say because I don't have a .50.(I stole that statement from another person but have been using it for decades

I wouldn't suggest using light target loads in your .45 for defense. If I have to shoot someone, I don't want to just tick him off, I want to put him down for keeps. I load with all of the velocity that I can get while still maintaining accuracy. And by the way, I've found very, very little loss in accuracy between my cast loads and the best jacketed bullets that I have fired. The only thing that I plan on changing is the next casting of bullets will be polymer coated. (See what a good influence that John has been on me, I can't let myself say powder coated anymore. Ha)

I don't know about cast bullets in some of the pop guns that are carried for defense purposes. I'm like most women that I have know over the years. They all say bigger is better. I probably shouldn't have said that OOOPS

I hope to hear from you who carry cast lead in the defense weapons and any other interesting information. PS-I load with Titegroup powder.

WHEN I STARTED THIS POST, I HAD NO IDEA THAT IT WOULD TAKE OFF ON THIS TANGENT. MY INTENTION WAS TO FIND OUT WHO USED CAST BULLETS IN THEIR DEFENSE HANDGUNS AND WHAT THESE GUNS WERE AND WHAT THEY LOADED THEM WITH. I AM WELL AWARE OF THE COURT CASE THAT HAS BEEN STATED SEVERAL TIMES. I AM A FREE AMERICAN AND HOPE TO STAY THAT WAY. I GUESS IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE AS TO WHAT STATE YOU LIVE IN AS TO YOUR OUTLOOK ON THINGS SUCH AS THIS. I HAD NO CONCERNS WHEN I STARTED LOADINNG DEFENSE WEAPONS WITH HAND LOADED CAST, AND STILL DON'T. BEING PROSECUTED  BY A OVER ZELAOUS D.A. DOESN'T ENTER MY MIND IF I EVER HAVE TO FIRE ON SOMEONE, AND THE ONLY WAY I WOULD DO THAT IS IF THEY WERE TRYING TO DO HARM TO MY FAMILY, I CARE NOTHING ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF DOING SO WITH WHATEVER AMMO I USE .HOWEVER, IT DOES MAKE ME FEEL BETTER KNOWING THAT I LIVE IN A STATE WHERE EVERY COUNTY VOTED RED.

I'VE BEEN EXPOSED TO THE CHINESE VIRUS AND MY DOCTOR PUT ME ON A PRESCRIPTION OF CHLORAQUINACAN-ZINC-D3 AND VITAMIN C TRYING TO WARD IT OFF. THAT WAS THREE DAYS AGO AND I'M NOT FEELING TOO WELL AT THE MOMENT. MY GRAND DAUGHTER AND MY SON ARE BOTH ENDURING IT PRESENTLY. SO DEPENDING ON HOW I  PROGRESS WILL AFFECT MY RESPONSES.

MASHBURN

David a. Cogburn

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Dean D. posted this 3 weeks ago

Most of my home defense weapons are loaded with cast.  My weapon of choice is a new model RBH in 45 LC, it stays loaded with 255gr RNFP's from a 454190 SC mold on an original 1884 patent Lyman tong tool.  I only load condom bullets when out in bear country and then the 300gr JHP's snuggle up to it. 

I do have one of those new fangled John Browning designed automatic pistols the Govt. used but haven't taken the time to work up loads for either type of bullet.  But heh, pistols were never my forte.  To each their own I guess <shrug>

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mashburn posted this 3 weeks ago

Hello Dean D.

Thanks for your response. Glad to hear from another with cast bullet fodder in his handgun. I like all firearms handgun and long gun but maybe it's the DNA of some of my past relatives who weren't exactly too law abiding that gave me my love for handguns, especiially revolvers. But after carrying a 1911 in the Army for 7 years,, I have a a great big sweet spot for it also. The 1911 is very good at doing what it was designed for.

Thanks for your response,

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 3 weeks ago

Issues arise in court both on the criminal & civil side when you use any handloads for self defense. Any lawyer or for that matter expert witnesses such Massad Ayoob will advise against this. No law enforcement agency I know of allows their officer to carry handloaded ammo. The argument will be that you made the ammo to be deadlier or to injure more seriously that factory ammo, no matter how ridiculous that sounds to you or me. So for self defense, your own ammo with jacketed or cast bullets is not wise.     

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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max503 posted this 3 weeks ago

I trust my reloads.  Enough said?  That Massad Ayoob thing doesn't concern me too much.  

I knew a guy who would make exploding bullets.  If you do something like that, or put garlic or poison in your bullet, that might be an issue for a lawyer, but otherwise I don't think so.

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sergeant69 posted this 3 weeks ago

Issues arise in court both on the criminal & civil side when you use any handloads for self defense. Any lawyer or for that matter expert witnesses such Massad Ayoob will advise against this. No law enforcement agency I know of allows their officer to carry handloaded ammo. The argument will be that you made the ammo to be deadlier or to injure more seriously that factory ammo, no matter how ridiculous that sounds to you or me. So for self defense, your own ammo with jacketed or cast bullets is not wise.     

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sergeant69 posted this 3 weeks ago

ok. can you cite a courtcase where this has actually happened? be interesting to know the details. and outcome.

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Tom Acheson posted this 3 weeks ago

I have read a few times that the explanation about "wanting to injure more severely" is not true. A good friend, a local police officer, also refuted the story.

You could always say you used handloads instead of factory ammo because the factory ammo might be infected with Covid from all the handling along the way and it wouldn't be good to purposely infect the person you shoot....ha!

Tom

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beagle6 posted this 3 weeks ago

I carry a snub nose 38 loaded with wadcutters and loaded to +P . These are ones I cast, not the soft swaged commercial and are fairly hard.. Truthfully, if I am shooting for my life, I don't care if I lead the barrel. Also, it looks like target ammo.

beagle6

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beagle6 posted this 3 weeks ago

Think I'll worry about staying alive first and lawyers later..

beagle6

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GBertolet posted this 3 weeks ago

One other reason for using factory ammo, is that the police forensic scientists, can duplicate the terminal performance of your ammo, if necessiary, from a shooting. Most major crime labs, have samples of most all factory ammo in their inventory to do this. If it is a good SD shooting, this can under some circumstances, exonerate you from false accusations, from hostile witnesses, such as in Ferguson Missouri for example. If handloads are used, dependent on what ammo they can recover, this becomes much more difficult to accomplish. With factory ammo the police have a repeatable baseline to work from. With handloads????

Although claims of being sued are out there, I have never heard of any specifics, of anyone being successfully sued over a righteous shooting, over the use of handloads.

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 3 weeks ago

Yall are missing the point. The issue with handloads is not the crux or main basis for prosecution or lawsuits, it is just more ammunition against you. Yes there has been no cases where the use of handloads is the main issue, but when it has happened, this is pointed out and used by the opposition in wrongful death suits and criminal prosecutions. 

Why make it easier to prosecute or sue you when really good factory ammo is available. If the situation arises that I must defend myself or others and have handloads in my gun, then that is what i will use. But purposely loading my gun with handloads is foolish. 


https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/what-are-the-legal-implications-of-handloading-ammo/

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 3 weeks ago

Tom,

So one friend a local cop tells you one thing, I am a retired cop and I tell you another thing, so who's right. Research the facts, ask a prosecutor and a defense attorney that specializes in defending the cases. Talk to a expert witness like Ayoob who has testified in court many times. See what answers you will get then. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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beagle6 posted this 3 weeks ago

There are a lot of people who make their living writing about or making videos about gun fights who have never been in one. There were nights in Vietnam when I slept with a 45 in my hand. I'm sure some Know it all will tell me how unsafe I was. Of course it was unsafe, but not as unsafe as fumbling for my weapon while someone sticks a bayonet in me. If any of you really want to know about shootouts and the aftermaths, get a copy of "Guns Bullets And Gunfights" by Jim Cirello. (Amazon) He was on the NYPD Stakeout Squad and survived 17 close range gunfights.

beagle6

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RicinYakima posted this 3 weeks ago

Some of it depends upon what state you live in and their particular laws. In my state, if you were justified in shooting someone, it doesn't' matter what you used. If it was justified, there are no civil suits. But that is only where I live. Where my brother lives, there will be civil suits if you shoot a burglar in your own house. Depends. FWIW

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Squid Boy posted this 3 weeks ago

I carry handloads loaded with Speer 230 grain Gold Dots in my FNP-45. I still remember what the Chief told me when he handed me my carry permit about forty years ago. "If you have to shoot, I only want to talk to you when I get there". Squid Boy

"Squid Pro Quo"

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Tom G posted this 3 weeks ago

I think a lot of chiefs think that way.  Back in the 70's I had a chief of police look at me one day and said:  " Tom, If you shoot somebody make sure they're dead.  I don't want to hear two stories"  Oddly enough, he was fired a few months later for swapping the new battery in his take home police car for the worn out  one in his family car. He was no the best chief we ever had.....   

 

I carry Hornady Critical Defense in my LC9 because of it's passing the FBI penetration and expansion tests and it's nickel plated which keeps it corrosion free.  In Michigan, you can be sued and having a defense atty. go after your ammo is just another area where they can confuse the jury.  Most Concealed carry classes advise the students to carry factory ammo and not reloads for that reason. 

 

Tom G.    Retired Sheriff Sgt. and police helicopter pilot. 

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mashburn posted this 3 weeks ago

Hello Squid Boy,

Thanks for the response. You and I could probably become friends if we knew each other.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 3 weeks ago

Hello Rick,

Thanks for the response and you made a very good point about where you live having an effect on self defense matters.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 3 weeks ago

Hello beagle6,

Thanks for your response. I don't know what part of the country you live in, but you share some of my past experiences and some of the same outlooks.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 3 weeks ago

Hello beagle6,

Great comment.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 3 weeks ago

Hello Tom Acheson,

I found your statement about factory ammo could be infected with the chinese virus to be very funny. I would never have thought of that one.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 3 weeks ago

sergeant69,

Thanks for your response and comment.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 3 weeks ago

Hello max503,

Thanks for your response and input.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 3 weeks ago

Which states is it where you can't get sued for shooting someone in self defense???????

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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RicinYakima posted this 3 weeks ago

 Washington. There has never been a successful civil suit for a justifiable shooting. My son, county Deputy Prosecuting Attorney tells me. The key work is "successful", as anyone can bring a suit for anything, including breathing on them, but that doesn't mean it will be successful, or make precedent. FWIW

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RicinYakima posted this 3 weeks ago

In the US of A, you can be sued for putting the "evil eye" on someone at the Indian casino and they lose. Doesn't mean you are going to win the suit.

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Tom Acheson posted this 3 weeks ago

Agree, one friend or anyone else with an opinion or story does not constiute a "concrete fact". My carry loads are factory only.  But this subject is an interesting one.

Tom

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max503 posted this 3 weeks ago

I carry a snub nose 38 loaded with wadcutters and loaded to +P . These are ones I cast, not the soft swaged commercial and are fairly hard.. Truthfully, if I am shooting for my life, I don't care if I lead the barrel. Also, it looks like target ammo.

beagle6

 

This is the best thing to come out of this thread, IMHO.

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 3 weeks ago

So my last comments and questions are:

You can get sued or prosecuted in any state and possibly by the US attorney. 

So again I ask, why use handloads when factory ammo is as good or better when the use of handloads may and probably will be used against you? To save a little money now, I hope not because it will just cost you a lot more in attorney fees to defend you. 

Do you think your handloads are better? I don't think so. 

This thread is going nowhere now, just in circles. 

So I will do what think is right and you do what you think is right. 



David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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GP Idaho posted this 3 weeks ago

Well folks, I very rarely buy factory built ammunition and if I do it's just to test a new gun and get the chamber dimensions figured out.   In my carry guns it's a likely bet that they have the very best handloads I can build. Gp

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beagle6 posted this 3 weeks ago

Hi MASHBURN,

I live in upstate New York but spent a year in Oklahoma ( Lawton, Ft. Sill ) Seems like we have some things in common and I wish we could meet.

On the subject of wadcutters, if you read Jim Cirello's book, he came to the conclusion that wadcutters were his best choice. He got into trouble with NYPD shooting review boards for not using "issue" ammunition and he he answered that he just came from the range and it was all he had.

beagle6

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mashburn posted this 3 weeks ago

Hello beagle6,

When you were at Ft. Sill you were a long way from my part of Oklahoma. If you left Ft. Sill and drove west until you were about 25 miles from Arkansas and drifted a wee bit North you would be in my stomping grounds of Oklahoma. I don't know what year you were in Ft. Sill but I graduated from high school in 1962 and immediately went to Duncan to live with my sister and find a summer job to make a little money to help start college that fall. I worked at a little Knox gas station on the by-pass in Duncan. I was acquainted with lots of the soldiers. I loved hot rods and I would let them use the lube rack at the station. That way I could get up under the cars and see what all they were running and talk bench racing.

Speaking of Upstate New York, there was a gentleman, Willet Randal who moved to the  Adariondak Mts. (mispelled) and devoted his life to breeding up a strain of Beagle Hounds called Patch Hounds. He authored a book called "Wilderness Patchwork" When he died around 1971, his beagles were sold off all over the united states. I was fortunate enough to scrape up enough money that enabled me to buy one of them .It was one of the best beagles that I ever owned.

Over the last 30 years or so we have had a lot of people from your upstate area move in here. I was friends with a couple of them until their death and still share a friendship with one of their sons.

Shortly after WW1 my wife's Grandfather was commanding officer at Ft. Sill.

Nice to hear from you<

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 2 weeks ago

Hello to all again,

This post was supposed to get responses from people who carry concealed handguns and load with cast hand loads. I was curious as to how many, what they were carrying and the loads with which they were using. I also was curious as to how many people trusted their handloads to function through their firearm. It immediately turned into a discussion of who is afraid of the boogie man and who isn't afraid of the boogie man. It definitely wasn't supposed to be that way but it turned that way almost 100%. If there are people who would like to post information pertaining to the original intent, I would like to hear them and I'm sure other people would also .Lets keep it about cast bullets and carry guns.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 2 weeks ago

The discussion is ok, no political slant. Opinions about use pertaining to legal liabilities is still well within the realm of the context. People need to hear both sides. This again is not political, Jeff, John and I will moderate and keep it on track. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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RicinYakima posted this 2 weeks ago

Mashburn,

Because of the laws of the state I live in, I can only shoot someone in fear of my life. They get to take whatever property they want. So at 72, it will be in a parking lot in the daylight hours. Not looking for drugs, women or gamboling, so I'm pretty safe except from the "homeless".

What I carry is 32 H&R with full wadcutters and maximum loads from a scandium S&W nine months  a year and a 10 round 32 ACP, while I am  wearing shorts, with a spare 9 round magazine. I use one of Ed Harris's bullets loaded to CIP spec's. If I can make it to the truck then I have 9mm +P+ and 7.62X39 options.

Ric

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beagle6 posted this 2 weeks ago

Hi Ric

Would to hear more about your 32 ACP load. Which bullet and what does CIP mean? That Airborne patch is interesting. Looks like an Engineer emblem below.

beagle6

 

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RicinYakima posted this 2 weeks ago

Beagle6,

32 ACP bullet is Accurate 31-084H over 5.5 grains of A2400, Fiocchi cases and is 890 f/s out of the Keltec. This is over book load, and not recommended. I normally cycle this in the Colt 1903 with no issues to save wear on the little Keltec.

CIP is the European standard agency like SAAMI is in the US. Their chamber and ammo specifications are different than ours and load ACP to much higher pressures.

Yep, 90 Engineers (Airborne). My combat engineer company's parent unit while in Viet Nam. They are now back at Fort Bragg but may or may not be jump status at this time. When there is a war going on they are, but go back to leg status during peace time.

Ric

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RicinYakima posted this 2 weeks ago

Chronographed this load thru the Colt today, 985 f/s from its new barrel.

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Idahocaster posted this 2 weeks ago

I carry a 357 load with a hollow point version of the Lee 358-158-RF in my SP101. The bullet runs about 152 gr in 20:1 alloy. lt's loaded to 38 special +P levels, probably about 950 fps. I don't own a chronograph so I've never checked the velocity.

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max503 posted this 2 weeks ago

IDK if this has been brought up but with the ammo droughts I have no other choice but handloads.  Even when available I can't get myself to shell out big bucks for something I make at home for peanuts.

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jimkim posted this 2 weeks ago

I've never seen, nor heard of this being brought up in a single case.

Our local dept bought a Dillon(late 80's) in order to load their own 357 ammo. At that time the officers carried their personal weapons. There was an even split between the 357 and 45 acp guys. I never did figure out who got a "free" Dillon.

Later the dept supplied 9mm's. After several years they switched to 40's. If you didn't want to carry the Norinco or later Wolf FMJ's(not kidding) supplied by the dept you purchased or handloaded your own ammo. The big depts don't do it, but I'm sure there is more than one dept doing it.

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RicinYakima posted this 2 weeks ago

When I was in LE, 50 years ago now, the agency supplied 18 rounds of 38 special RN and a box of wadcutters for practice once a year. I bought a box of Super-Vel's and they cost me almost two hours pay. They also didn't care if I carried a back up gun either.

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Chicowize posted this 2 days ago

Interesting points of view from different users & different areas. I’ve heard both views before. I personally carry factory ammo in my self defense weapons but I’m not too much opposed to carrying my cast or hand loaded ammo. It’s match grade ammo, Fine tuned to work in our specific weapons correct. I do trust my handloads enough to carry. Being worried about a Prosecutor speculating my handloads are more effective in stopping a threat than factory ammo is a complement & the least of my worries if I had to use my weapon in a self defense shooting.

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