Cast BulletsI In Self Defense Hand Guns

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  • Last Post 09 January 2021
mashburn posted this 18 November 2020

I think it would be interesting to know how many cast bullet shooters actually shoot cast bullets in their personal self defense handguns .I carry a 1911 .45 ACP as my personal self defense weapon. And  yes, I do carry it loaded with handloads which contain 230gr. round nose cast bullets. My brother-in-law who is a very experienced  re-loader, won't put his reloads in his .45.I see people buying high dollar ammo to put in their self defense handguns. I trust my hand loads to function and they do. If you have ever had the misfortune of having to fire on another person using a .45 ACP or  witnessed the results of such, you will know what an old .45 hardball slug will do, and I expect a cast bullet will do even better. The army supposedly went to the 9mm because of recoil. We must be recruiting some troops that are a lot different from the ones, with which  I served. I know that 9mm Ammo is much lighter, but I'm not carrying hundreds of rounds. I have people ask me why I carry an old antiquated .45. My answer is always the same. I say because I don't have a .50.(I stole that statement from another person but have been using it for decades

I wouldn't suggest using light target loads in your .45 for defense. If I have to shoot someone, I don't want to just tick him off, I want to put him down for keeps. I load with all of the velocity that I can get while still maintaining accuracy. And by the way, I've found very, very little loss in accuracy between my cast loads and the best jacketed bullets that I have fired. The only thing that I plan on changing is the next casting of bullets will be polymer coated. (See what a good influence that John has been on me, I can't let myself say powder coated anymore. Ha)

I don't know about cast bullets in some of the pop guns that are carried for defense purposes. I'm like most women that I have know over the years. They all say bigger is better. I probably shouldn't have said that OOOPS

I hope to hear from you who carry cast lead in the defense weapons and any other interesting information. PS-I load with Titegroup powder.

WHEN I STARTED THIS POST, I HAD NO IDEA THAT IT WOULD TAKE OFF ON THIS TANGENT. MY INTENTION WAS TO FIND OUT WHO USED CAST BULLETS IN THEIR DEFENSE HANDGUNS AND WHAT THESE GUNS WERE AND WHAT THEY LOADED THEM WITH. I AM WELL AWARE OF THE COURT CASE THAT HAS BEEN STATED SEVERAL TIMES. I AM A FREE AMERICAN AND HOPE TO STAY THAT WAY. I GUESS IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE AS TO WHAT STATE YOU LIVE IN AS TO YOUR OUTLOOK ON THINGS SUCH AS THIS. I HAD NO CONCERNS WHEN I STARTED LOADINNG DEFENSE WEAPONS WITH HAND LOADED CAST, AND STILL DON'T. BEING PROSECUTED  BY A OVER ZELAOUS D.A. DOESN'T ENTER MY MIND IF I EVER HAVE TO FIRE ON SOMEONE, AND THE ONLY WAY I WOULD DO THAT IS IF THEY WERE TRYING TO DO HARM TO MY FAMILY, I CARE NOTHING ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF DOING SO WITH WHATEVER AMMO I USE .HOWEVER, IT DOES MAKE ME FEEL BETTER KNOWING THAT I LIVE IN A STATE WHERE EVERY COUNTY VOTED RED.

I'VE BEEN EXPOSED TO THE CHINESE VIRUS AND MY DOCTOR PUT ME ON A PRESCRIPTION OF CHLORAQUINACAN-ZINC-D3 AND VITAMIN C TRYING TO WARD IT OFF. THAT WAS THREE DAYS AGO AND I'M NOT FEELING TOO WELL AT THE MOMENT. MY GRAND DAUGHTER AND MY SON ARE BOTH ENDURING IT PRESENTLY. SO DEPENDING ON HOW I  PROGRESS WILL AFFECT MY RESPONSES.

MASHBURN

David a. Cogburn

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RicinYakima posted this 09 January 2021

"I tell everyone that it is easier to stay out of trouble than to get out of trouble. I tell them even with a justified shooting, you can end up with $10,000.00 to $20.000.00 of legal fees if you have a young politically motivated States Attorney trying to grab headlines and advance his career. Remember, this is your first time in this situation and you are a total novice. When talking to the police; give name, address, be sure to say your life was in danger and you had no choice, cooperate only for identification. Then shut up until you have a lawyer who specializes in self-defense."

Wise words, Bud, wise words. A self-defense shooting is always the last resort.

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Bud Hyett posted this 09 January 2021

I quit teaching "Self-Defense" classes first because work was more than full-time with travel and second because of all the various opinions. I live in the same state as Ric and understand our law here. I still "mentor" close friends at their request for safe operation and marksmanship. This with the understanding I am not a lawyer and no longer qualified for the entire course.

When the subject comes to a serious social situation, I explain my approach:

  • P - Position
  • I - Identify
  • S - Sight
  • S - Squeeze

This is an easy acronym to remember under stress. And the long lecture in any self-defense course is the last thing a person will be thinking of at that time. It also is not NRA, or many other groups, sanctioned for teaching in a class. 

  •  Position: Where are you, what is the lighting, where are innocent bystanders, what can be unintended consequences?
  • Identify: Is this a threat to you or your immediate family?
  • Sight: Discuss the range; close - look over the front sight, farther out - use front and rear sights
  • Squeeze: You still have to squeeze the shot.

I've never been to court with this.

I tell everyone that it is easier to stay out of trouble than to get out of trouble. I tell them even with a justified shooting, you can end up with $10,000.00 to $20.000.00 of legal fees if you have a young politically motivated States Attorney trying to grab headlines and advance his career. Remember, this is your first time in this situation and you are a total novice. When talking to the police; give name, address, be sure to say your life was in danger and you had no choice, cooperate only for identification. Then shut up until you have a lawyer who specializes in self-defense.

One-half of the lawyers graduate in the bottom of the class and will do anything to jump ahead. Do not think I am against lawyers. I wanted to go to law school and become a patent/commercial attorney. Few people know that Abraham Lincoln was a very successful commercial lawyer and gained his national fame leading to the Presidency from this. Life did not offer this, but I am happy with the journey. 

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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brooksharris posted this 08 January 2021

Agreed David!  Mas may have more incoming data and experience in teaching deadly force issues than any single individual in the U.S.  There is another issue to consider:  No one would argue that we are responsible for the shot fired until it comes to its final resting point.  Modern defensive handgun ammo has been tweaked (Win. Ranger, HST, Speer GD, Super Vel, etc.) such that in reasonable defense calibers it is most likely to expand.  That's good because a 35 caliber can become a 50+; my 45 caliber becomes a 70 or 80+.  That makes it a wider cutting instrument and also it allows the bullet to put the breaks on similar to a parachute opening so that the round(s) we fired doesn't over penetrate the evil doer and come to rest inside totally innocent Aunt Polly who was behind him.

Assuming we have made the right decision to utilize deadly force due to reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm, I further add to my potential defense by using the same ammo (different caliber) that my large city PD does and I'm on record with a reputable school as having maxed not only the PD qualification but the FBI qualification as well.

Some may pooh pooh the legal ramifications of what comes after a deadly force encounter, but they do so unwisely.  I retired after 34 years from our department where I worked some very interesting assignments, and I have seen the heartache and depression (civilians and sworn) experienced by those who were almost perfect in their self-defense action and then watched the rapid erosion of their resources and feared for their family's future in the follow-up investigation and prosecution.

Don't be cavalier about this decision; don't be penny wise and pound foolish.  Be smart and study the subject.

Blessings to all for a safe 2021.  Retired Detective Sergeant Brooks Harris

 

 

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shjoe posted this 07 January 2021

hello, eddie. my 5 shot, 3" barrel, fixed sight version is a 70s production, original charter arms manufacture. the company has changed names and quality over the years. presently, my cast bullet loads can be kept within a paper plate at 10yds. i had to regulate the fixed sights to roughly center on the target. as loads/groups improve i will make small adjustments if needed and increase target distance. i did add a pachmayr grip for control. best, john

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mashburn posted this 07 January 2021

Hello Eddie,,

I can't say if it has the sleeved barrel or not. My buddie is sending me pictures. He has the target model and three regular bulldogs, all in .44 Special. Thanks for the tip.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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Eddie Southgate posted this 07 January 2021

Hello shjoe,

I have never owned a .44 Special but am in the process of dealing a friend out of a Early Charter Arms target model .44 Special Bulldog. I hope  I like it as much as other .44 owners appear to like theirs.

Mashburn

Never liked the early Target Bulldogs . The aluminum sleeve over the barrel had a tendency to walk , never could keep the setscrew in mine tight enough to keep it still . I had the .357 first then bought a .44 hoping it would not be an issue with it but it did the same . Buy a newer TB with the solid barrel . By early I am talking late '70's early '80's .

Grumpy Old Man With A Gun......Do Not Touch .

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shjoe posted this 05 January 2021

hello, david. i think you will enjoy it. plenty of power for most without the sharp magnum kick. for some time i carried a m10 sw with 4" barrel. very versatile and the 158gr semi wadcutter cast bullet is no slouch in power or accuracy. with bear and moose wandering around, the 44spl offered more power without going the magnum route. best regards, john 

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Bud Hyett posted this 05 January 2021

You'll like it. I enjoyed both of mine. The first one was sold to a police officer who shot it and liked it as his backup. The second was bought to replace the first. Then I traded the Charter Arms and some cash for a S&W 696. 

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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mashburn posted this 04 January 2021

Hello shjoe,

I have never owned a .44 Special but am in the process of dealing a friend out of a Early Charter Arms target model .44 Special Bulldog. I hope  I like it as much as other .44 owners appear to like theirs.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 04 January 2021

Hello Wheel Weights,

I see one thing that is bad wrong with this revolver. It isn't mine. I appreciate the picture.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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Wheel Weights posted this 04 January 2021

There are few 44 Specials than can use Keith loads.

 

This is one of them.

 

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 04 January 2021

Yup.  44spcl Taurus 5 shot snubby.  Also good for shot for rattle snakes when prairie dog hunting.

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shjoe posted this 04 January 2021

i have found the 44spl is very versatile, esp in my early charter arms bulldog. currently working up 240gr semi wadcutters (unique and trail boss) for a "walking around" load on my property. the case is big enough to load up an effective bird shot/snake load also. early spring/summer when the berries are ripe for picking, larger animals such as the neighborhood bear may show up. a long gun isnt an option while berry picking. i will carry a glock 23 with commercial ammo. it points well, fast on target and offers a very quick aimed second shot. if the bear is in the berry patch first, i stay away until he is done. i share the berries.

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Eddie Southgate posted this 03 January 2021

Only in .44 spl , .38 spl , .357 Mag , .45 Colt , .45 AR , .32 ACP . I trust my reloads 100% and find no logical reason that a good cast bullet would not settle any issue I got to settle with a handgun . 

Grumpy Old Man With A Gun......Do Not Touch .

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mashburn posted this 16 December 2020

Hello TRKakaCatWhisperer,

A .44 Special is one handgun that I have never owned. However, I am in the process of buying one from a friend of mine. And when we finally agree on a price, it will be mine. We're awful close on a price agreement at the present time.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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Brodie posted this 16 December 2020

Oh joy, I finally found someone who lugs one of those hi-standard heavies around besides me.  I like your choice in self defense weapons.

B.E.Brickey

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 15 December 2020

Taurus 5 shot 44 Spcl - 240gr semi wadcutters - OR -

1911 (4" and 5") with H&G 68's - OR -

Taurus 6 shot .327 Federal mag with cast.

Only other that I carry for serious social purposes is High Standard 2 shot 22Mag.

 

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mashburn posted this 15 December 2020

Hello gmeeder175,

I, like you seldom carry concealed in public, it depends on where I am as to if I'm carrying concealed or not. But i always have my 1911 in the console between the seats in my pick up truck. How ever, like you, i never venture out in the woods with out a large bore handgun. I had a run in with a big black wild boar when I was a young man, and needless to say that taught me something. 

Here is a suggestion-If you are ever charged by a wild hog, dog or some other large animal, squat down and then fire. if you are standing up ,I guarantee you that you are going to be very excited and will probably shoot over the attacking animal, if you are squatting down your handgun or rifle will be level with the animal and you will be less likely to shoot over your target. However there will be times when you don't have time to get down. That is another reason for carrying a large bore firearm, I don't want him to keep coming if I put two or three rounds in him.

When i used to bow hunt, I carried a handgun, not for shooting deer illegally but in case I was attacked by a predator or the two legged predators also. Three of my friends were camped out on a fishing trip and some 2 legged varmints came in camp and killed all three of them and took their vehicles and sporting equipment. They were located and arrested with in a few weeks. Most of our local game rangers close their eyes to those who carried a side arm during archery season for personal protection.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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[email protected] posted this 15 December 2020

 After reading the above I might have another take on the subject. Some where I read an article written by a Elk guide out west who carried a 38 snub nose loaded with commercial defense jacketed of some type to dispatch downed Elk. Eventually having to use it on a downed Elk the the bullet failed to pernitrate the skull. After that incident he switched to a hard cast lead alloy bullet. As he said "something that is known to work".  As for me I don't carry my revolver in public, but when roaming the fields and woods I carry it loaded with Lee round flat 125 or 158 grain cast bullets. 

Several years ago there where a couple of large dogs roaming loose on the tracts of land behind my house. Hiking the area one day, with my dog, the large dogs approached. They where intimidating; seemingly intent on attacking my dog. Having my old Colt OP along loaded with full wadcutters gave me confidence to hold my ground. The standoff ended with those dogs retiring from the field. Penetration in that circumstance would be warranted. 

Of course I wouldn't want to touch one of those bullets off in my house. I hate fixing plaster and drywall! 

 

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LarryW posted this 13 December 2020

Nothing says howdy like a very wide, flat nosed heavy hunk of lead. I love that very loud Smack, when that wide flat makes contact. 

A day late & a dollar short, story of my life ???

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