MOSINS and the pursuit of excellence

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Vassal posted this 26 March 2010

Awhile back I decided that when it came time to start serious work with cast bullets in the Mosin Nagant I would start a post sharing my experiences, methods, succeses and failures. I have been shooting and reloading for over a year now and have gained enough skill and know how (mostly as a result of following advice offered by my fellow members at this site) to feel confidant that I AM able to coax accuracy out of A rifle and ammunition, If IT can do it. My Mosins have been shooting very impressive groups with jacketed lately and now I would like to see if I can transfer that success to cast bullets.

I will start with a concise review of my case prep and loading methods, berfore I briefly describe my gun care and maintenance as well as shooting procedures. That way those interested can better understand my results and better use that information.

CASE PREP------As of now I use exclusively Serbian Brass. This is branded Prvi-Partisan, and carries a headstamp of - PPU. I use a Lyman trimmer to trim them to length (they start a bit short at 2.095") Chamfer with a lee tool, de-burr the Flashhole with an RCBS tool, Uniform the thickness of the necks by turning with a Forester handheld neck turner. 

SIZING-------Using my RCBS Rockhucker IV, I am using standard RCBS Dies, a Full-length and seperate Neck only sizer and a standard seater, For cast (and some jacketed) I use a carefully adjusted Lyman M die - long die body with a 31cal expander inside. and a Lee factory Crimp die, when crimp is desired.

I try to neck size only as much as possible, though I am not certain that it is improving accuracy, it may be harming. That is a test to come, which is high on the priority list.

For casting I will be using primarily two bullets, with the more frequent use of one -

the LBT-315-175-sp.8

The other is an adaptation of the well known design originally used by Mighty Ed Harris - the Lee 155-2r 

I do NOT use a lubrisizer of any sort. currently I can not justify the large initial cost of the machine itself and the MANY dies that I would need. I have the base level LEE press along with Lee sizer dies of the appropriate sizes. I also use this press with a Lee universal decapper to de prime.

Another likely unusual fact about my process is cleaning. After I deprime, I use a LEE Primer pocket cleaner to remove debris; I then either clean by hand, by using the Lee shell holders which allow the attachment to a drill, or, if needed, by using a bath in Birchwood Casey's Brass Cartridge Case Cleaner. The drawback is that the cases are wet and need about half a day (or more) to dry. A tumbler is something I will add only when I have enough guns, ammo, backup pieces and essential tools to be safe, and contented with the shooting of match quality ammo for the rest of my life. Or maybe I'll get a whim and just by one.:thinking:

I shoot two guns with cast (for now) a 1938 M91-30, which was apparently refurbed after '45 because it has a very clean (perfect) laminated stock, perfect bluing, few cartouches and a brand new bore. How that happened-I don't know, but I saw it and SNAPPED it up. I also will be using a 1967 M39. This gun was unfired, unissued and I have the arsenal tag.

These are  lubed and cleaned with JB bore cleaner and Boreshine, once. I will establish a cleaning regimen after shooting but will try very hard to clean as little as possible. I shoot off of sand bags which sit on top of blocks cut for this specific purpose. Not as nice as a rest but once I got it figured out the heights are the same for all Mosins; it is only when I try to use a different gun that it becomes difficult.

 

 

 

 

  I will develop some loads and present targets in the next few days!

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nimrod posted this 26 March 2010

That looks like what I'll need for my Mosin, I'm all eyes and ears on this one. Blaze away can't wait to see some results with this.

MISSOURIANS for MOSINS

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DAMRON G posted this 26 March 2010

I” try to neck size only as much as possible"

I  have pretty good accuracy with NS cases in my Mosins.I use the Hornady “Universal” neck die but had them send  their expander for the .303B /7.62 x 39.It minimally sizes the neck and shooting my .312 diameter bullets i dont have to use an expaner die.

I like the looks of the LBT's,what diameter is the nose?

George

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Vassal posted this 27 March 2010

Straight into the ogive at full diameter. They get seated DEEP into the case (about as far as is safe I would say) but they should take the heat if I decide to push them. Sort of irrelevant for the PB but the GC might hold at some pretty good speeds. We shall see! They definitely max out the RCBS seater die and the 31cal M die, BUT they DO work! I didn't really expect them to be as close as they are. Good to know though _those dies will work for bullets up to .316, MAX The m die is really .315, as the setting gets so touchy youll end up with trumpets!

 I am REALLY glad I won't have to fiddle with a custom expander or a different (or weird) seater set up. The setting is so drastically different from my other loads though I will have to get another seater for convenience.

If I can start getting some groups Like Damron posted on the other thread, I will be VERY happy.

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Vassal posted this 28 March 2010

upon closer inspection of the GC version of my new bullet, it is clear that the entire Gc will be well into the case. The Top of the GC touches the start of the neck at 2.690. Meaning that the bullet should be seated to 2.700 if the GC is to be inside the neck at all. The problem is that this bullet is on the lands somewhere between 2.620 and 2.650 . ( I never have figured out how you guys become so confidant that the bullet is “on the lands” or 2 thou. off them. I put the bullet in and it pulls, and then a little shorter and it  moves a little (made longer or shorter arbitrarily), and then a little LONGER and it doesn't touch, and then longer than the first time and it doesnt touch, and then 2tenths shorter than ever and it pulls!:wtf:)  

Either way this bullet can not be seated with the GC anywhere near the neck. IS this safe? It is made espesially precarious by the fact that the chamber will only allow for .315 diameter, which means that if it is larger than the chamber will size down the bullet in the neck leaving the part that is in the case along with the GC larger! PLease tell me what you think about this.

Sorry about the quality of the pic. This bullet is loaded On the lands at 2.630” that leaves .030 of space before the GC will contact the case neck.

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chboats posted this 28 March 2010

There is an easy way to measure the over all lenght with a given bullet. For a 30 cal you will need a 1/4” brass rod and two 1/4” ID collers with set screws. I got them from the local hardware.

  1. with the bolt closed slide the rod down the muzzle until it is resting on the bolt face.

  2. Place the collers on the rod and slide down the rod until they are tight against the muzzle. Make sure the rod is still against the bolt face.

  3. Tighten the set screw on the outer coller.

  4. remove the rod from the bore.

  5. Open the bolt and drop a bullet into the chamber. Use a wood dowel to hold the bullet against the lands.

  6. Insert the rod back into the bore until it just contacts the bullet. You will be able to feel it make contact because the dowel will move.

  7. Slide the inner coller to the muzzle and tighten the set screw. (you may need three hands)

  8. With a dial caliper measure the space between the two collers. This is the over all length for that bullet from bolt face to the lands.

Try several measurements until you get the hang-of-it.

If this is not clear sent me a PM and we can talk.  Send me you phone number or I will send you mine

Hope this helps

Carl

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Vassal posted this 28 March 2010

I believe I will try the method suggested. I have thought about trying to make a modified case for the Hornady OAL tool also, but I don't have many tools and my “handi” experience is limited to earthworks, concrete and a little wood. Working on guns is the first time I have been confronted by metal, and learning on your own is difficult and expensive, nearly impossible since I am most often VERY careful and I have No one actually present in my life that does this sort of stuff. I learn alot and even rely on the information I recieve from those who know at CBA

I should have mentioned that the bullets are almost perfectly round (.00025 best guess) and both the GC and PB cavities are exactly the same.

My issues with the EXACT seating depth can be worked out with shooting. I have a window, which I will try and see what works best. The most pressing part of my concern is the safety of this set-up. If i seat a CG without sizing it is at .317 (since thats where my die ended up - I have ordered another but that is a different story) BUT when I chamber the chamber WILL swage the bullet in the neck down to .315. That will leave a larger portion of the bullet in the case. I worry about firing the load and obturating the bullet or catching the GC on the neck causing a catastrophic failure. Only slightly less troublesome is the GC being ripped off and left in the bore somewhere.

I have ordered another Lee .314 sizer which I can use as is (negating some of the benefit of a tight fit) or open up to .315 . I think that the GC would be OK at .314, BUT at .315 or larger it may catch (as the chamber allows space for the PPU brass and .315 - thats it). And the issue of the bullet obturating inside the case is still there.  Am I wrong to worry about this? Are others of you shooting loads with the GC and more all the way through the neck and into the case? If it is alright, am I limited to softer loads. I was looking forward to the “Full-girth” nose design of this bullet perhaps offering steady accuracy at higher velocities than Bore ride designs. I may have really screwed up.

I have not planned on shooting cast in my other Mosins but at least one of them has a long enough throat to just barely keep the GC in a part of the neck. I may try it in order to attempt to salvage this project if we conclude that the seating depth is unsafe. I am hoping I didn't make a bad bullet design.

Oh my naive days. I thought that a custom bullet would solve some of my problems. It doesn't seem to be working out. I guess I have many expensive lessons yet to learn

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DAMRON G posted this 28 March 2010

Shoot the bullets as loaded and don't look back.I shoot a few bullet designs this way and haven't had any problems.The only time it gives problems is when the GC is alot larger than the bullet and when it goes past the neck it overexpands it then the bullet has no neck tension.I resolve this by crimping lightly or using a Lee factory crimp die.Your other option is to put in a .308 to .310 die in your lubrasizer and run the bullet in NOSE first (with a .45 SWC top punch) and reduce the front band down a bit to get it out of the case a bit.I think this really helps by getting the bullet into the throat better,but may or may not improve accuracy.I have some Eagan “T” dies that go into the lubrasizer that only taper the bullet front end and were never ment to lube,but are not longer available.

I take the Lyman 323378 8mm 245g bullet and lube and seat the 8mm GC it in a .323 die then into a .314 die and finally nose first into a .308 die and it shoots very well in  my Mosins.

 

George

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Vassal posted this 28 March 2010

Castmaster DAMRON G,,, IN the HOUSE! Your name presented like that always makes me think of a DJ type party master! :shock:  I am so glad to hear that. I suspected that Veral would have caught such an issue before making the mold but you never know, Even the best can only work with the info you give them.:dunce:

I am having some issue with the loss of neck tension. I suppose that will remedy when I recieve my new sizer die. I don't really have a use for this one I over expanded to .317, but you never know when I may happen along a stray 303 or 7.7 or 7.62.

Now if I can figure out this OAL thing. This is amazing. Now I am using the Rod method described above, (yes the seemingly simple and foolproof method) but I am getting such short OAL's it conflicts with what happens when I put a round in.???? It is Awesome how difficult simple tasks can be when you aren't used to them. I am not an altogether inept fellow, but I sure am floundering around right now.:cusout:

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DAMRON G posted this 28 March 2010

Now I am using the Rod method described above,

this was good advice from chboats.

I have shot bullets with a bit of jump and had good accuracy,so don't fret too much.With the lyman 311466 150g Loverin i am probably 3/8"off rifling in an Argentine Mauser yet it shoots 1.5 -2” at 100 with issue sights much of the time.

George

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nimrod posted this 28 March 2010

Hey Vassel hang in there, wish that I could offer some advice but I'm on a long learning curve myself. Keep plugging away you'll make it work and thanks for posting all of this as it will help some of us following along behind you.

MISSOURIANS for MOSINS

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Vassal posted this 29 March 2010

Well I suppose this thread will gain its value, if it is too have any, by cataloging all my experiences, good and bad. It may actually benefit more people if I worked through more failures than successes but let's not wish that.

I went to the range today and let some fly. I went to a different range than I usually shoot at; a PLace that has a rangemaster and time limits. I don't much enjoy that so I only stayed for one session = 1hr. I loaded up about 18 PB LBT's with various combinations of powder and lube. I know that isn't the best for true load development, but that is how I like to get started, really casual. I don't clean between shots or strings, so the results are very rough, BUT I think this does help to start to find the strong contenders for component choices. I basically had three loads. All had the same brass, FEderal LR match primers, loaded with the LBT PB cast of my own version of Hardball (3-6-91) They varied in powder and lube. The least succesful, (suprisingly) was 5 grains of W231 with 1groove of 50/50 lube. I have shot some pleasing groups in the yard here with the Lee 155-2r and 4 gr of W231, so I thought it would work well. it didn't. the group is shown below.

I should mention that after a few shots being lost at 100yds i figured I had better move the target to 50. I knew from shooting a few groups of lee 155-2r's (L155) at 40-50yd that the sights would need to be at around 400yd for the W231 load. I thought I would be on the paper at 100. I was wrong. Because I changed the charge and had other loads even faster, I didn't have any idea if I was close or not. Upon moving the target to 50yd the shots were printing. WOW that is a suprise to me. I guess I will have alot to learn about the differences between shooting cast and jacketed. I guess there will be a very different sight adjustment for 100.  If any of you have an idea about where I may need to set my sights for 100, let me know. As you see, I was about 2” low at 50 using the 400yd setting. Unfortiunately I did not chrono today.

I also loaded som rounds on top of AA2400, lubed with White lable 2500+. Those with a charge of 12.6 gr had 1gv filled and those with a charge of 13 had 2gv. After losing the first shots at 100, then posting the group offered by W231, I realized that this wasn't going to be easy. I haven't seen groups like that (from a rifle) for awhile now. I shot the AA2400 @ 12.6 W 1gv. It did a bit better, but not a whol lot. That group measured 1.4” (4shots). Finally I ended up with 13&2gv. I started to see some accuracy. As you can see I put three shots touching and one rebellious, that opened the group to 1.3” (these are rough measurements.)

I am very glad that things started to come around. It is relevant that the gun I was shooting was my 1967 m39 (SimoHayha) It has not been shot much (around 25 jacketed and 10cast before today.) I may put a hundred jacketed rounds through the bore to get him seasoned up.New gun, New load, New bullet, New type of bullet = not bad for today! 

If I can take anything from such preliminary shooting I think it is the strong suspicion that this bullet will have trouble operating at low velocities, rather it may be better said that this design will perform best at (relatively) higher velociites. Again, I did not chrono today, but this bullet seats deep and gives a little more velocity than others (I think). I clocked 16 grains of 2400 at 1547 FPS a couple of days ago.

It has begun   

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DAMRON G posted this 30 March 2010

A friend has been battling cast with his model 27 Finn for about 2 years. Its also his first cast bullet experience with a rifle. He has finally settled on 16.0 of 4759 and a 200g two diameter bullet with a very short .313 body and long .302 “ish” nose ,the old NEI 47-B.We shot a CBA match this weekend in Spokane and while he wouldn't beat the top CBA Military scope classed guys he did shoot four 5 shot groups that averaged 1.56” @ 100 yds.His smallest one was 1.2 the big one was 1.7)He previously would get only occasional good groups. I think settling on one bullet and powder and firing quite a few groups gave him a good baseline and confidence in his load. Before this last month or so i doubt he fired more than 10 shots to evaluate a load before changing one or more components. I haven't spent the time he has with the Mosins,but my 16.0 of 2400 and a pistol primer with the 314299,311335 or my LBT 200 have all been reliable groupers into at least 2.5” for 5 @100 in a few iron sighted Russian and Finn variants, many times less.If i shoot 1/2 a dozen groups in a session i will have one or two that are 1.5". Look at the match results on this forum and see Wally Enga's scores with his Model 39 with a scope, they are scary!! I''d say he has them shooting as well as anybody ever has or will.

George

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Vassal posted this 01 April 2010

I did some shooting today. “Excellence” eludes me still. It seems as though this will take some work. I am not even going to list groups or loads. I shot at fifty yds and am sure I did not break 2". I am going to shoot these guns with jacketed for awhile so Ic an get the hang of things. Right now I can't tell if they will shoot at all!

To make matters worse Lyudmila (91-30) is FULL, I mean FULL of lead.:#: My groups were so poor that when I “lost accuracy” I didn't realize it. In hindsight I know when it happened (roughly) I was wondering why I couldn't even hit the paper at fifty, but it really wasn't all that great of a change. I don't know why they leaded. I am shooting sized larger than the bore slugs and close to max for the chamber. the fastest PB loads were clocked @ 1470's (that was only 5 rounds) I believe that those rounds started the trouble though. It was a bit hotter (86dg) than I thought it would be, but it seems as though that shouldn't hav happened. Alloy is 3-6-91, by the way. I am wondering about the bullet that is exposed inside the case. My first session produced relatively consistant lead splatters on the ejected brass (necks). I still don't know what to think of that!

I did change one thing --as I write I have checked and it WAS thesame loads that changed --- on some loads I lubed only the middle lube groove. I tipped a case while loading and realized that with the entire last lube groove hanging in the case if the powder touches it, it WILL cling to the lube. Then the issue becomes - Will it ignite? Will different amounts cling to each bullet and create additional ignition/pressure discrepencies? will the powder burning on the bullet melt the lead and create leading;? ruin the base and accuracy? I thought it would be ok. I figured if one groove is enough (remember I thoguht cooler weather) than why does it have to be the rear-most? I bet that did it!:doooah:surely it wasn't the velocity of 1475. I know that is getting into the top zone, but,,,,

If I had it to do over again (and it seems I do) I don't believe I would have ordered a bullet without a reduced diameter nose. I may get this bullet to shoot yet, but the issues created by having so much bullet and GC and Lube in the case with the powder is less than ideal.

I will continue to shoot

I will continue to report back here

We are on our way to a hard fought victory!    

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Mike H posted this 01 April 2010

In my experience projectiles protruding into powder space is not a problem. The only worry is that once the projectile goes deeper than the neck shoulder junction, they do not have the same tension in the neck, and can push back further into the case, when handling and loading. A Lee Factory Crimp die stops any movement.

                         As for using  lube in one grease groove, forget it, you can do that later, where you are at present, just fill them up. Lubricant on the bases of bevel base bullets, and the GC heel of bullets loaded without a GC, seems to be a worry for a lot of people, just ignore it and shoot. Actually in my old NRA Cast Bullet book, it says to leave the lube on the heel area, if using a GC style bullet without a GC.

One possible cause of leading may be your new barrels, The reamers usually leave marks and sharp edges in the throat, breaking in the barrel with jacketed rounds helps. Keep trying, it`s good fun. Mike.

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DAMRON G posted this 01 April 2010

"My first session produced relatively consistent lead splatters on the ejected brass (necks). I still don't know what to think of that!"

I get that on some plainbase  loads and haven't been able to associate it with any accuracy loss.I have never leaded a barrel like you talked about in a Mosin with GC bullets.With plainbase 1400 fps or over is shaky territory and i think you will do best somewhere around 1200 with your alloy.In my 30-06 I can run  linotype plainbse loads into about 1.5” at 100 @ 1500 for about 6-7 shots then it gets squirelly.I end up with a pretty good bit of lead wash i have to clean out with low velocity GC loads.

Hang in there !

George

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DAMRON G posted this 01 April 2010

Mike H wrote: In my experience projectiles protruding into powder space is not a problem. The only worry is that once the projectile goes deeper than the neck shoulder junction, they do not have the same tension in the neck, and can push back further into the case, when handling and loading. A Lee Factory Crimp die stops any movement.

                         As for using  lube in one grease groove, forget it, you can do that later, where you are at present, just fill them up. Lubricant on the bases of bevel base bullets, and the GC heel of bullets loaded without a GC, seems to be a worry for a lot of people, just ignore it and shoot. Actually in my old NRA Cast Bullet book, it says to leave the lube on the heel area, if using a GC style bullet without a GC.

One possible cause of leading may be your new barrels, The reamers usually leave marks and sharp edges in the throat, breaking in the barrel with jacketed rounds helps. Keep trying, it`s good fun. Mike. Ditto on all the advice!!

George

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nimrod posted this 02 April 2010

On a another board there is a guy that is using a shot buffer to fill the case up to 100% load density he is using a slower burning powder and getting great results or so he claims. I wonder if anyone on here has tried the same? If it would work it might help protect the base of the bullet and allow you more flexability in your loads for the plain base bullets. As a youngun (long time ago) I tried the same with cream of wheat, something that I read about that didn't work either. It did leave a clean barrel but sure does stink. Also I wonder how hard your bullets are, in my experience with plain base bullets harder is better as far a leading goes, but I have never got really great accuracy with them yet, about minute of beer can at 50 yards is about as good as I have done, mostly working with a 30-06 now working with 38-55 and larger different story but thats a whole different game. Hang in a keep working at it, if it was easy everybody would be jumping on this

MISSOURIANS for MOSINS

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Vassal posted this 02 April 2010

Thank you all for your advise. I think that filling all the grooves right now is a good idea; a terrific idea when I look at this bore! It has dainty little leaden hands waving at me from the muzzle! They prod me onward, onward toward excellence! 

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Mnshooter posted this 02 April 2010

I had a Russian carbine taht slugged at 317. You may be fighting a very large bore diameter. I had not noticed your alloy but often using tempered bullets helps. Size then bake them in an oven at 450 for an hour and dump them in water. Use WW or Mag birdshot. Also I have found the Lee tumble lube to work pretty good in my cast loads. Also had fair luck with buffer on one old 303 Brit.

MNshooter.

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JSH posted this 03 April 2010

I agree with the above on the lube. However, I see you mention shooting jacketed as well. I know I know there are a pile of guys that shoot both in their guns with no ill effects. They are a lot luckier than I have been. If these rifles are new as you mention, or fired very little, maybe they do have a rough spot and/or there is some jacket material built up some where? The only thing I sue on jacketed anymore is Wipe Out. On load work. Stick with one bullet and one OAL length. I also suggest to do a load ramp and use same powder and bullet combo and work up. If a person goes to swapping and shuffling stuff around in any kind of a serious range session you will loose track. RUN THEM OVER THE CHRONO! Read what it tells you. I neglected to do this a year ago, because I thought I was “good". Load was ok but could have been better. I little tweaking of powder and it improved a LOT. Then and only then did I fool with OAL. I tweaked around with OAL and gained a bit more. This was on a gun I have shot thousands of rounds of CB's through with various powders. Keep notes. I can't stress that enough. And I am one of the worst at doing it. I use a spiral and have it dedicated to one gun period. I used to try and keep several guns in one book, it was handy to a point but made a mess in the long run. Jeff

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