MOSINS and the pursuit of excellence

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Vassal posted this 26 March 2010

Awhile back I decided that when it came time to start serious work with cast bullets in the Mosin Nagant I would start a post sharing my experiences, methods, succeses and failures. I have been shooting and reloading for over a year now and have gained enough skill and know how (mostly as a result of following advice offered by my fellow members at this site) to feel confidant that I AM able to coax accuracy out of A rifle and ammunition, If IT can do it. My Mosins have been shooting very impressive groups with jacketed lately and now I would like to see if I can transfer that success to cast bullets.

I will start with a concise review of my case prep and loading methods, berfore I briefly describe my gun care and maintenance as well as shooting procedures. That way those interested can better understand my results and better use that information.

CASE PREP------As of now I use exclusively Serbian Brass. This is branded Prvi-Partisan, and carries a headstamp of - PPU. I use a Lyman trimmer to trim them to length (they start a bit short at 2.095") Chamfer with a lee tool, de-burr the Flashhole with an RCBS tool, Uniform the thickness of the necks by turning with a Forester handheld neck turner. 

SIZING-------Using my RCBS Rockhucker IV, I am using standard RCBS Dies, a Full-length and seperate Neck only sizer and a standard seater, For cast (and some jacketed) I use a carefully adjusted Lyman M die - long die body with a 31cal expander inside. and a Lee factory Crimp die, when crimp is desired.

I try to neck size only as much as possible, though I am not certain that it is improving accuracy, it may be harming. That is a test to come, which is high on the priority list.

For casting I will be using primarily two bullets, with the more frequent use of one -

the LBT-315-175-sp.8

The other is an adaptation of the well known design originally used by Mighty Ed Harris - the Lee 155-2r 

I do NOT use a lubrisizer of any sort. currently I can not justify the large initial cost of the machine itself and the MANY dies that I would need. I have the base level LEE press along with Lee sizer dies of the appropriate sizes. I also use this press with a Lee universal decapper to de prime.

Another likely unusual fact about my process is cleaning. After I deprime, I use a LEE Primer pocket cleaner to remove debris; I then either clean by hand, by using the Lee shell holders which allow the attachment to a drill, or, if needed, by using a bath in Birchwood Casey's Brass Cartridge Case Cleaner. The drawback is that the cases are wet and need about half a day (or more) to dry. A tumbler is something I will add only when I have enough guns, ammo, backup pieces and essential tools to be safe, and contented with the shooting of match quality ammo for the rest of my life. Or maybe I'll get a whim and just by one.:thinking:

I shoot two guns with cast (for now) a 1938 M91-30, which was apparently refurbed after '45 because it has a very clean (perfect) laminated stock, perfect bluing, few cartouches and a brand new bore. How that happened-I don't know, but I saw it and SNAPPED it up. I also will be using a 1967 M39. This gun was unfired, unissued and I have the arsenal tag.

These are  lubed and cleaned with JB bore cleaner and Boreshine, once. I will establish a cleaning regimen after shooting but will try very hard to clean as little as possible. I shoot off of sand bags which sit on top of blocks cut for this specific purpose. Not as nice as a rest but once I got it figured out the heights are the same for all Mosins; it is only when I try to use a different gun that it becomes difficult.

 

 

 

 

  I will develop some loads and present targets in the next few days!

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nimrod posted this 26 March 2010

That looks like what I'll need for my Mosin, I'm all eyes and ears on this one. Blaze away can't wait to see some results with this.

MISSOURIANS for MOSINS

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DAMRON G posted this 26 March 2010

I” try to neck size only as much as possible"

I  have pretty good accuracy with NS cases in my Mosins.I use the Hornady “Universal” neck die but had them send  their expander for the .303B /7.62 x 39.It minimally sizes the neck and shooting my .312 diameter bullets i dont have to use an expaner die.

I like the looks of the LBT's,what diameter is the nose?

George

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Vassal posted this 27 March 2010

Straight into the ogive at full diameter. They get seated DEEP into the case (about as far as is safe I would say) but they should take the heat if I decide to push them. Sort of irrelevant for the PB but the GC might hold at some pretty good speeds. We shall see! They definitely max out the RCBS seater die and the 31cal M die, BUT they DO work! I didn't really expect them to be as close as they are. Good to know though _those dies will work for bullets up to .316, MAX The m die is really .315, as the setting gets so touchy youll end up with trumpets!

 I am REALLY glad I won't have to fiddle with a custom expander or a different (or weird) seater set up. The setting is so drastically different from my other loads though I will have to get another seater for convenience.

If I can start getting some groups Like Damron posted on the other thread, I will be VERY happy.

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Vassal posted this 28 March 2010

upon closer inspection of the GC version of my new bullet, it is clear that the entire Gc will be well into the case. The Top of the GC touches the start of the neck at 2.690. Meaning that the bullet should be seated to 2.700 if the GC is to be inside the neck at all. The problem is that this bullet is on the lands somewhere between 2.620 and 2.650 . ( I never have figured out how you guys become so confidant that the bullet is “on the lands” or 2 thou. off them. I put the bullet in and it pulls, and then a little shorter and it  moves a little (made longer or shorter arbitrarily), and then a little LONGER and it doesn't touch, and then longer than the first time and it doesnt touch, and then 2tenths shorter than ever and it pulls!:wtf:)  

Either way this bullet can not be seated with the GC anywhere near the neck. IS this safe? It is made espesially precarious by the fact that the chamber will only allow for .315 diameter, which means that if it is larger than the chamber will size down the bullet in the neck leaving the part that is in the case along with the GC larger! PLease tell me what you think about this.

Sorry about the quality of the pic. This bullet is loaded On the lands at 2.630” that leaves .030 of space before the GC will contact the case neck.

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chboats posted this 28 March 2010

There is an easy way to measure the over all lenght with a given bullet. For a 30 cal you will need a 1/4” brass rod and two 1/4” ID collers with set screws. I got them from the local hardware.

  1. with the bolt closed slide the rod down the muzzle until it is resting on the bolt face.

  2. Place the collers on the rod and slide down the rod until they are tight against the muzzle. Make sure the rod is still against the bolt face.

  3. Tighten the set screw on the outer coller.

  4. remove the rod from the bore.

  5. Open the bolt and drop a bullet into the chamber. Use a wood dowel to hold the bullet against the lands.

  6. Insert the rod back into the bore until it just contacts the bullet. You will be able to feel it make contact because the dowel will move.

  7. Slide the inner coller to the muzzle and tighten the set screw. (you may need three hands)

  8. With a dial caliper measure the space between the two collers. This is the over all length for that bullet from bolt face to the lands.

Try several measurements until you get the hang-of-it.

If this is not clear sent me a PM and we can talk.  Send me you phone number or I will send you mine

Hope this helps

Carl

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Vassal posted this 28 March 2010

I believe I will try the method suggested. I have thought about trying to make a modified case for the Hornady OAL tool also, but I don't have many tools and my “handi” experience is limited to earthworks, concrete and a little wood. Working on guns is the first time I have been confronted by metal, and learning on your own is difficult and expensive, nearly impossible since I am most often VERY careful and I have No one actually present in my life that does this sort of stuff. I learn alot and even rely on the information I recieve from those who know at CBA

I should have mentioned that the bullets are almost perfectly round (.00025 best guess) and both the GC and PB cavities are exactly the same.

My issues with the EXACT seating depth can be worked out with shooting. I have a window, which I will try and see what works best. The most pressing part of my concern is the safety of this set-up. If i seat a CG without sizing it is at .317 (since thats where my die ended up - I have ordered another but that is a different story) BUT when I chamber the chamber WILL swage the bullet in the neck down to .315. That will leave a larger portion of the bullet in the case. I worry about firing the load and obturating the bullet or catching the GC on the neck causing a catastrophic failure. Only slightly less troublesome is the GC being ripped off and left in the bore somewhere.

I have ordered another Lee .314 sizer which I can use as is (negating some of the benefit of a tight fit) or open up to .315 . I think that the GC would be OK at .314, BUT at .315 or larger it may catch (as the chamber allows space for the PPU brass and .315 - thats it). And the issue of the bullet obturating inside the case is still there.  Am I wrong to worry about this? Are others of you shooting loads with the GC and more all the way through the neck and into the case? If it is alright, am I limited to softer loads. I was looking forward to the “Full-girth” nose design of this bullet perhaps offering steady accuracy at higher velocities than Bore ride designs. I may have really screwed up.

I have not planned on shooting cast in my other Mosins but at least one of them has a long enough throat to just barely keep the GC in a part of the neck. I may try it in order to attempt to salvage this project if we conclude that the seating depth is unsafe. I am hoping I didn't make a bad bullet design.

Oh my naive days. I thought that a custom bullet would solve some of my problems. It doesn't seem to be working out. I guess I have many expensive lessons yet to learn

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DAMRON G posted this 28 March 2010

Shoot the bullets as loaded and don't look back.I shoot a few bullet designs this way and haven't had any problems.The only time it gives problems is when the GC is alot larger than the bullet and when it goes past the neck it overexpands it then the bullet has no neck tension.I resolve this by crimping lightly or using a Lee factory crimp die.Your other option is to put in a .308 to .310 die in your lubrasizer and run the bullet in NOSE first (with a .45 SWC top punch) and reduce the front band down a bit to get it out of the case a bit.I think this really helps by getting the bullet into the throat better,but may or may not improve accuracy.I have some Eagan “T” dies that go into the lubrasizer that only taper the bullet front end and were never ment to lube,but are not longer available.

I take the Lyman 323378 8mm 245g bullet and lube and seat the 8mm GC it in a .323 die then into a .314 die and finally nose first into a .308 die and it shoots very well in  my Mosins.

 

George

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Vassal posted this 28 March 2010

Castmaster DAMRON G,,, IN the HOUSE! Your name presented like that always makes me think of a DJ type party master! :shock:  I am so glad to hear that. I suspected that Veral would have caught such an issue before making the mold but you never know, Even the best can only work with the info you give them.:dunce:

I am having some issue with the loss of neck tension. I suppose that will remedy when I recieve my new sizer die. I don't really have a use for this one I over expanded to .317, but you never know when I may happen along a stray 303 or 7.7 or 7.62.

Now if I can figure out this OAL thing. This is amazing. Now I am using the Rod method described above, (yes the seemingly simple and foolproof method) but I am getting such short OAL's it conflicts with what happens when I put a round in.???? It is Awesome how difficult simple tasks can be when you aren't used to them. I am not an altogether inept fellow, but I sure am floundering around right now.:cusout:

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DAMRON G posted this 28 March 2010

Now I am using the Rod method described above,

this was good advice from chboats.

I have shot bullets with a bit of jump and had good accuracy,so don't fret too much.With the lyman 311466 150g Loverin i am probably 3/8"off rifling in an Argentine Mauser yet it shoots 1.5 -2” at 100 with issue sights much of the time.

George

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nimrod posted this 28 March 2010

Hey Vassel hang in there, wish that I could offer some advice but I'm on a long learning curve myself. Keep plugging away you'll make it work and thanks for posting all of this as it will help some of us following along behind you.

MISSOURIANS for MOSINS

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Vassal posted this 29 March 2010

Well I suppose this thread will gain its value, if it is too have any, by cataloging all my experiences, good and bad. It may actually benefit more people if I worked through more failures than successes but let's not wish that.

I went to the range today and let some fly. I went to a different range than I usually shoot at; a PLace that has a rangemaster and time limits. I don't much enjoy that so I only stayed for one session = 1hr. I loaded up about 18 PB LBT's with various combinations of powder and lube. I know that isn't the best for true load development, but that is how I like to get started, really casual. I don't clean between shots or strings, so the results are very rough, BUT I think this does help to start to find the strong contenders for component choices. I basically had three loads. All had the same brass, FEderal LR match primers, loaded with the LBT PB cast of my own version of Hardball (3-6-91) They varied in powder and lube. The least succesful, (suprisingly) was 5 grains of W231 with 1groove of 50/50 lube. I have shot some pleasing groups in the yard here with the Lee 155-2r and 4 gr of W231, so I thought it would work well. it didn't. the group is shown below.

I should mention that after a few shots being lost at 100yds i figured I had better move the target to 50. I knew from shooting a few groups of lee 155-2r's (L155) at 40-50yd that the sights would need to be at around 400yd for the W231 load. I thought I would be on the paper at 100. I was wrong. Because I changed the charge and had other loads even faster, I didn't have any idea if I was close or not. Upon moving the target to 50yd the shots were printing. WOW that is a suprise to me. I guess I will have alot to learn about the differences between shooting cast and jacketed. I guess there will be a very different sight adjustment for 100.  If any of you have an idea about where I may need to set my sights for 100, let me know. As you see, I was about 2” low at 50 using the 400yd setting. Unfortiunately I did not chrono today.

I also loaded som rounds on top of AA2400, lubed with White lable 2500+. Those with a charge of 12.6 gr had 1gv filled and those with a charge of 13 had 2gv. After losing the first shots at 100, then posting the group offered by W231, I realized that this wasn't going to be easy. I haven't seen groups like that (from a rifle) for awhile now. I shot the AA2400 @ 12.6 W 1gv. It did a bit better, but not a whol lot. That group measured 1.4” (4shots). Finally I ended up with 13&2gv. I started to see some accuracy. As you can see I put three shots touching and one rebellious, that opened the group to 1.3” (these are rough measurements.)

I am very glad that things started to come around. It is relevant that the gun I was shooting was my 1967 m39 (SimoHayha) It has not been shot much (around 25 jacketed and 10cast before today.) I may put a hundred jacketed rounds through the bore to get him seasoned up.New gun, New load, New bullet, New type of bullet = not bad for today! 

If I can take anything from such preliminary shooting I think it is the strong suspicion that this bullet will have trouble operating at low velocities, rather it may be better said that this design will perform best at (relatively) higher velociites. Again, I did not chrono today, but this bullet seats deep and gives a little more velocity than others (I think). I clocked 16 grains of 2400 at 1547 FPS a couple of days ago.

It has begun   

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DAMRON G posted this 30 March 2010

A friend has been battling cast with his model 27 Finn for about 2 years. Its also his first cast bullet experience with a rifle. He has finally settled on 16.0 of 4759 and a 200g two diameter bullet with a very short .313 body and long .302 “ish” nose ,the old NEI 47-B.We shot a CBA match this weekend in Spokane and while he wouldn't beat the top CBA Military scope classed guys he did shoot four 5 shot groups that averaged 1.56” @ 100 yds.His smallest one was 1.2 the big one was 1.7)He previously would get only occasional good groups. I think settling on one bullet and powder and firing quite a few groups gave him a good baseline and confidence in his load. Before this last month or so i doubt he fired more than 10 shots to evaluate a load before changing one or more components. I haven't spent the time he has with the Mosins,but my 16.0 of 2400 and a pistol primer with the 314299,311335 or my LBT 200 have all been reliable groupers into at least 2.5” for 5 @100 in a few iron sighted Russian and Finn variants, many times less.If i shoot 1/2 a dozen groups in a session i will have one or two that are 1.5". Look at the match results on this forum and see Wally Enga's scores with his Model 39 with a scope, they are scary!! I''d say he has them shooting as well as anybody ever has or will.

George

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Vassal posted this 01 April 2010

I did some shooting today. “Excellence” eludes me still. It seems as though this will take some work. I am not even going to list groups or loads. I shot at fifty yds and am sure I did not break 2". I am going to shoot these guns with jacketed for awhile so Ic an get the hang of things. Right now I can't tell if they will shoot at all!

To make matters worse Lyudmila (91-30) is FULL, I mean FULL of lead.:#: My groups were so poor that when I “lost accuracy” I didn't realize it. In hindsight I know when it happened (roughly) I was wondering why I couldn't even hit the paper at fifty, but it really wasn't all that great of a change. I don't know why they leaded. I am shooting sized larger than the bore slugs and close to max for the chamber. the fastest PB loads were clocked @ 1470's (that was only 5 rounds) I believe that those rounds started the trouble though. It was a bit hotter (86dg) than I thought it would be, but it seems as though that shouldn't hav happened. Alloy is 3-6-91, by the way. I am wondering about the bullet that is exposed inside the case. My first session produced relatively consistant lead splatters on the ejected brass (necks). I still don't know what to think of that!

I did change one thing --as I write I have checked and it WAS thesame loads that changed --- on some loads I lubed only the middle lube groove. I tipped a case while loading and realized that with the entire last lube groove hanging in the case if the powder touches it, it WILL cling to the lube. Then the issue becomes - Will it ignite? Will different amounts cling to each bullet and create additional ignition/pressure discrepencies? will the powder burning on the bullet melt the lead and create leading;? ruin the base and accuracy? I thought it would be ok. I figured if one groove is enough (remember I thoguht cooler weather) than why does it have to be the rear-most? I bet that did it!:doooah:surely it wasn't the velocity of 1475. I know that is getting into the top zone, but,,,,

If I had it to do over again (and it seems I do) I don't believe I would have ordered a bullet without a reduced diameter nose. I may get this bullet to shoot yet, but the issues created by having so much bullet and GC and Lube in the case with the powder is less than ideal.

I will continue to shoot

I will continue to report back here

We are on our way to a hard fought victory!    

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Mike H posted this 01 April 2010

In my experience projectiles protruding into powder space is not a problem. The only worry is that once the projectile goes deeper than the neck shoulder junction, they do not have the same tension in the neck, and can push back further into the case, when handling and loading. A Lee Factory Crimp die stops any movement.

                         As for using  lube in one grease groove, forget it, you can do that later, where you are at present, just fill them up. Lubricant on the bases of bevel base bullets, and the GC heel of bullets loaded without a GC, seems to be a worry for a lot of people, just ignore it and shoot. Actually in my old NRA Cast Bullet book, it says to leave the lube on the heel area, if using a GC style bullet without a GC.

One possible cause of leading may be your new barrels, The reamers usually leave marks and sharp edges in the throat, breaking in the barrel with jacketed rounds helps. Keep trying, it`s good fun. Mike.

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DAMRON G posted this 01 April 2010

"My first session produced relatively consistent lead splatters on the ejected brass (necks). I still don't know what to think of that!"

I get that on some plainbase  loads and haven't been able to associate it with any accuracy loss.I have never leaded a barrel like you talked about in a Mosin with GC bullets.With plainbase 1400 fps or over is shaky territory and i think you will do best somewhere around 1200 with your alloy.In my 30-06 I can run  linotype plainbse loads into about 1.5” at 100 @ 1500 for about 6-7 shots then it gets squirelly.I end up with a pretty good bit of lead wash i have to clean out with low velocity GC loads.

Hang in there !

George

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DAMRON G posted this 01 April 2010

Mike H wrote: In my experience projectiles protruding into powder space is not a problem. The only worry is that once the projectile goes deeper than the neck shoulder junction, they do not have the same tension in the neck, and can push back further into the case, when handling and loading. A Lee Factory Crimp die stops any movement.

                         As for using  lube in one grease groove, forget it, you can do that later, where you are at present, just fill them up. Lubricant on the bases of bevel base bullets, and the GC heel of bullets loaded without a GC, seems to be a worry for a lot of people, just ignore it and shoot. Actually in my old NRA Cast Bullet book, it says to leave the lube on the heel area, if using a GC style bullet without a GC.

One possible cause of leading may be your new barrels, The reamers usually leave marks and sharp edges in the throat, breaking in the barrel with jacketed rounds helps. Keep trying, it`s good fun. Mike. Ditto on all the advice!!

George

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nimrod posted this 02 April 2010

On a another board there is a guy that is using a shot buffer to fill the case up to 100% load density he is using a slower burning powder and getting great results or so he claims. I wonder if anyone on here has tried the same? If it would work it might help protect the base of the bullet and allow you more flexability in your loads for the plain base bullets. As a youngun (long time ago) I tried the same with cream of wheat, something that I read about that didn't work either. It did leave a clean barrel but sure does stink. Also I wonder how hard your bullets are, in my experience with plain base bullets harder is better as far a leading goes, but I have never got really great accuracy with them yet, about minute of beer can at 50 yards is about as good as I have done, mostly working with a 30-06 now working with 38-55 and larger different story but thats a whole different game. Hang in a keep working at it, if it was easy everybody would be jumping on this

MISSOURIANS for MOSINS

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Vassal posted this 02 April 2010

Thank you all for your advise. I think that filling all the grooves right now is a good idea; a terrific idea when I look at this bore! It has dainty little leaden hands waving at me from the muzzle! They prod me onward, onward toward excellence! 

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Mnshooter posted this 02 April 2010

I had a Russian carbine taht slugged at 317. You may be fighting a very large bore diameter. I had not noticed your alloy but often using tempered bullets helps. Size then bake them in an oven at 450 for an hour and dump them in water. Use WW or Mag birdshot. Also I have found the Lee tumble lube to work pretty good in my cast loads. Also had fair luck with buffer on one old 303 Brit.

MNshooter.

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JSH posted this 03 April 2010

I agree with the above on the lube. However, I see you mention shooting jacketed as well. I know I know there are a pile of guys that shoot both in their guns with no ill effects. They are a lot luckier than I have been. If these rifles are new as you mention, or fired very little, maybe they do have a rough spot and/or there is some jacket material built up some where? The only thing I sue on jacketed anymore is Wipe Out. On load work. Stick with one bullet and one OAL length. I also suggest to do a load ramp and use same powder and bullet combo and work up. If a person goes to swapping and shuffling stuff around in any kind of a serious range session you will loose track. RUN THEM OVER THE CHRONO! Read what it tells you. I neglected to do this a year ago, because I thought I was “good". Load was ok but could have been better. I little tweaking of powder and it improved a LOT. Then and only then did I fool with OAL. I tweaked around with OAL and gained a bit more. This was on a gun I have shot thousands of rounds of CB's through with various powders. Keep notes. I can't stress that enough. And I am one of the worst at doing it. I use a spiral and have it dedicated to one gun period. I used to try and keep several guns in one book, it was handy to a point but made a mess in the long run. Jeff

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Vassal posted this 03 April 2010

I have two Mosins devoted to cast and two for jacketed. I am shooting jacketed through my cast guns solely to Iron out any rough spots. I used JB on the m39 (which leaded very little.) I did NOT uses JB on the 91-30 Which leaded so horribly I have yet to find the courage to face it!

In terms of load development, I am sure there is a more methodical way, but I simply don't have the patients. It seems it would be a year of testing powders! I have three or four powders which I will use with many combinations of OAL and lube and charge et cetera, over several range sessions, to hopefully stumble upon something good,(in any case I take the best) which I will then methodically develop. It seems that in order to do "serious work” with one powder/ lube combo, from the start, you must be willing to set aside the chance that the powder you are working with is NOT the best. It is true that every powder will produce a personal best so to speak, but how do know which Powder is the best?

I guess that after a chosen powder has shown its “personal best” one could THEN try different powders. INDEED that seems very reasonable.

MY question then becomes - What if different powders, with different burn/pressure characteristics, result in "best” loads at different velocities, OALs? I.E. the work done with the first powder might prove of little value with another. That may not be true; Is it?

   The truth is I really do not know. I have not done much “serious” load development. If those of you who have, have learned that my concerns are invalid, please let me know. I suppose what it boils down to is the reality of SO MANY variables that sorting through them in a truly orderly fashion is beyond my means. I simply can't afford to buy two hundred different powders and burn them at every different charge weight, behind every different alloy of every different hardness, with every different lube at every different OAL,,,,,,,,,,,,,,IN every combo:jawdrop:

It may be that the info from one “developed” load IS valuable Most times in other loads. I have not done enough testing to know that.

It certainly is very difficult to keep track. I write the velocities down but am really only concerned at first with those that shoot well and those that don't. then I can count out those that didn't work. That may be the powder with the best load at a different charge/ oal. OH I KNOW, OH.. OhhH:(

We are on our way to a hard fought victory!! 

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JSH posted this 03 April 2010

In all honesty, I am waiting to see what you end up with as far as holy grail load. Will save me a lot when get geard up for my MN. Still fighting with a die that sizes to my liking. I hate being force feed what they think the dies should be and what they actually are, if you know what I mean. As to A load. I find it pretty interesting that the lyman books that list a mold and powder to be accurate, to be much less fussy than some of the ones recommended for FLGC loads. I have my own thoughts on powders and pressure curves with cast. In some instances, I have found a start load for FLGC's to be a very good load for CB's. That is, the powder that is suggested to be an accurate one with FLGC's, that one has no data on for a CB.

Plug the bore on the MN and fill'r up with Kroil or Ed's Red and let it set for a week. Pull the plug, run a brush then a dry patch through it. You will be suprised I think. There are those that say to run a jacketed round through it and that will clean it up............ Only made things worse the first and last time I tried it. Ironed the lead down into the grooves. I was then told that the jacketed round I shot was not of proper size............. good luck I will be lurking jeff

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Vassal posted this 04 April 2010

I am glad that at least one person is interested in my uh hmm,, work. After I started writing and having nothing but trouble I really wondered if I shouldn't have worked out a little more before I opened my mouth:kilroy:. Oh well, I will continue to shoot; I will continue to write here about my success and failure.

I too am leary about the jacketed clean the barrel thing. I don't disbelieve the many who say it works, I just can't be sure I am not missing some piece of info, like your bullet size thing.

The sizing die was a bit of trouble for me too. I use Lee push through and ruined my first .314 (I think I worked the wrong end and then thought progress was slower than it was:dunce:). It is now a .317. I got another which arrived at .313; it is now .3146 or so. I may open it up a light touch more, but .315 is MAX for the chamber with PPU brass turned to whatever I turn them to (which is basically just straightening them out.)

I think I will use kerosene to try and clean this thing. It may be awhile as the project will be a large one. I can literally pick lead out of the muzle. I have learned my lesson. I have only had leading one time before and that was in my revolver.

With all these Mosin Shooters here in Missouri, We will have to organize a MOSIN only competition , or perhaps just a shoot to keepit more inclusive. There is a video online that shows about one hundred Mosins all lined up and firing at teh same time!

I think I will design a logo for

                :idea1::idea1::idea1:              Missourians for Mosins!             :idea1::idea1: :idea1:

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Mnshooter posted this 04 April 2010

For leading you can try the old time worn trick of wrapping the Brass strands from a brass pot cleaning pad around a brush and running that through the barrel. Some of those old military barrels are more fouled with the old copper fouling than with leading. I have cleaned a couple out by letting them stand with household ammonia over night. On a couple the blue gunk that came out was surprising. Ammonia can be a corrosive agent so you do want to only leave overnight and be careful. For me and I see a lot of differences, the best powders ahve been those that burn in the category of 4198 or Re7. I had one load that liked 3031 but mostly I had the best luck with faster stuff. 4227 has worked fairly well also. Good luck.

MNshooter.

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nimrod posted this 04 April 2010

Hang in there Vassel I for one really appreciate what you are doing, it's easy to write about great groups and everything that works well but in real life stuff doesn't always work out that way. I've been shooting cast bullets for 50 years more or less but was never real serious about the small bore stuff till the last couple years. Small bore to me is 30 cal. and under, and there is a long learning curve on this stuff and then you throw in the Milsurp monkey wrench and that just complicates the equation. So get the lead out that will take a couple days slow it down, more lube, and shoot a couple rounds and look in the muzzle sometimes you can see lead starting to build, clean it out before it builds up really bad. When success does arrive it'll sure be sweet.

Richard

MISSOURIANS for MOSINS

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Vassal posted this 04 April 2010

THATS RIGHT!;}

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tturner53 posted this 04 April 2010

Miracle lead remover product: Birchwood Casey Lead Remover and Polishing Cloth. Amazing stuff. Just cut a small piece for a patch and push it thru. It keeps working when it's dirty so don't be too quick to toss a used patch. Does wonders for a fouled bore or revolver chamber/frame etc.

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Vassal posted this 05 April 2010

Well, She's plugged and soaking in kerosene.I went to the local reloading shop and the only Lead specific product they had was shooters choice lead remover. It said not to leave it in the bore so I was a bit leery. I guess we'll see!

EDIT: MEANING I did NOT get the Shooters choice

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tturner53 posted this 05 April 2010

The Shooter's Choice hasn't worked for me, but maybe I do it wrong. The Birchwood Casey lead remover cloth works real good, I've used it for 20 yrs. It's also very good for wiping inside a revolver frame where the lead builds up.

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Tazman1602 posted this 06 April 2010

Vassel man, chore boy brass scrub pads wrapped around a jag or bore brush will strip the lead right out of there and any old fouling too, works VERY well and a lot easier than chemicals.

For anyone who's interested I noticed that J&G Sales has some Mosin's this month for a little more than $100 bill, might pick up a couple myself.

Art Pappy's Rifle Shop Alanson, MI

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Vassal posted this 10 April 2010

THEY ARE CLEAN!

AHH HAA HHAAA HAAA HAAH AHHAA!!!!!

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Vassal posted this 13 April 2010

Well I went to the range again today to see if I could do a little better. I did. I took only one rifle - the 91-30 Lyudmila, and decided to try some more reasonable loadings to start with. Using all Plain-Base bullets of 3-6-91 alloy, I tried some “slobbered in alox” like Mighty Ed says, and the rest with all grooves full of 2500+ from White Lable. I used two powders W231 and SR4756. All were primed with CCI BR LR, and seated into the lands. I did not chrono. I did notice that the groups improved slightly as the barrel was “sullied” and the improvement was marked when I switched from alox to 2500+ and agin when I switched from W231 to SR4756, getting better each time. I think this barrel is going to need alittle time to “get used to things.” I still remained at the 50yd line for now, setting my sights at the 400 then 450 yd setting. it is about 80dg and only a slight gusting breeze.     THE BEST PART = NO LEADING :thumbsup:.

All groups are five shots (EXCEPT ONE)

ALOX - W231 @ 6.4 = 1.935"  (though only .6” horizontal)

ALOX - W231 @ 6.8 = 1.945” (wider dispersion though this is the cold barrel group)

2500+ - SR4756 @ 8.3 = 1.950” ( .7” horizontal {four shots only}) 

2500+ - SR4756 @ 8.7 = 1.080” ( .45” horizontal This was the final group)

AS can be seen. the dispersion was vertical NOT horizontal. Some of it is me I am certain, as I did not go as slowly as I could have.

I wonder if the reason for this is ALL me or if I am getting velocity variation? (I also used my Redding powder measure to throw the charges for these. That thing is almost as presise as I can be doing it by hand!!)

                            :armyhelmet: We are on our way to a hard fought Victory! :armyhelmet:

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nimrod posted this 13 April 2010

Good to see that you are up and running again, with those small loads of powder have you tried tipping the barrel up before you shoot like schuetzen shooters do? Might help a little getting a consistant burn. What method worked best for removing the lead, been there a few times myself and the best surefire way that I found involved a lot of elbo grease.

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Vassal posted this 13 April 2010

I did not tip the barrel, BUT I did tip each case forward and then tap it on the rim a few times, trying to ensure the same amount of powder stuck to the bullet. I tries to get them there without tipping them at all, but it was pretty hard. The groups aren't fantastic, but at least there a start!

   I didn't discover anything when it came to removing the leading. I soaked the barrel in kerosene for 24hr. scrubbed it with a poly brush, intermixing one swipe with a bronze evry once in a while, for about 20mn. THEN soaked it for another 24, did the same thing only worked for about 45mn before removing the last tiny bit with a good JB bore cleaner/BoreBright treatment. I did not JB this bore before I shot the first time -I believe that to be part of the problem.

I thought that because I have “gotten to know” a couple of Mosins already that I would have a reasonably good grasp on the rest of them; that might still prove to be true, BUT they are NOT the same. Each gun is a new friend with new strengths and weaknesses. I have always had a really good feeling about this 91-30 (for soem reason I sort of expect it to do better than my '67 m39) I don't know about that BUT we SHALL see!

           I will continue to shoot

          I will continue to report back here.

       

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Vassal posted this 20 April 2010

Well, I went to the range today with some jacketed rounds for the M39. I have put about 70 J rounds through him now and feel like I am getting the hang of things. It is amazing how different rifles of the SAME MAKE can be. I have been remiss in keeping all the screws tight- UHH big problem. That helped. I alsoe believe the barrel is settling down. I shot my first good group today with this rifle. It was 1.13” at 100 - Sierra M king with Fed match LR and IMR 4350.

I believe I will switch him back to cast --- OR MAYBE NOT. After returning from the range I was feeling good so I broke out my OTHER M39. This one is very shot, but the barrel is clean (aside from that one scratch:shock:) I have always figured this one was for Jacketed, but began to wonder if it might not do even better with cast. The barrel is large (unusual for a finn) at .313 BUT it has given me my best groups OF ANY mosin, printing routinely sub MOA. I FL sized 3 brass and nexk sized 3, loaded each with CCI LP magnum primers and 10.0 of SR4756 and a Lee 155-2r GC BAC lube, on the lands. I fired them prone with a bag in front at about 40 -45 yd. The N sized grouped about .47” with the first shot 1” left as fouler. THe FL sized made .345"!

Perhaps my logic has been a bit backward. Why NOT use the less perfect M39 for cast? Why not both,,- all three? Maybe even VAssily my first Mosin with a “dark, frosted bore could try some lead?! Every Mosin throw lead!

In addition I discovered a bit of a bobble and burr on the newer '67 M39. It is pretty slight but definitely there.I am thinking of getting a round grinding ball and tring to refinish the crown. I am a bit timorous about that though. Does anybody have experience with that sort of thing? any advice

I will continue to shoot.

I will continue to report back here

We are on our way to hard fought victory!

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JSH posted this 21 April 2010

Well I gave my M39 a go with a couple of different laods and a couple of different bullets. The lee 155 sized .313 did fair. Loaded with 4227. I also tried the wanna be 314299 from lee. It is an old beat up mold that is pretty much on it's last leg. It was given to me or going in the trash by another shooter. I used XMP5744 for this one. As I only loaded 10 rounds of each I did no paper work to speak of everything was shot standing. Windage was perfect out to 100m. I walked a bullet out to 50M and whacked a steel chicken dead center with my last round of 155's. I took a guess and walked the 200 grianers out to the 100M 24” gong. One round left. It was about 6” high at 100M of where I wanted to be. I moved to the 200M ram and held right only the belly line and let on fly. Windage once again was good. Hit was about 2” above belly line. So, I now have some rough sight settings. I came home and loaded the rest of that batch of brass with a couple of grain bump in powder charge. I have a fair bit of milsurp 4350 that I may go to rather than the XMP5744, if it will shoot as well. The trigger on the M39 I have to say is way better than the majority of unmodified milsurps I have shot. The argentine has a very good trigger and the krag has a good trigger, but the M39 will top both of them. I hate to say it but it is also better than my 1903 for sure. Triggers don't make guns shot small groups, but they cansure hel show a lot more of what a barrel and load has to offer.

I could find very little on published data for the 155 in the 7.62x54. So I may do some cross referencing and use some 308 data later on. I hope to get some paper shot this weekend. jeff

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Vassal posted this 21 April 2010

Write back. We are listening!

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35Whelen posted this 21 April 2010

There is an easy way to measure the over all lenght with a given bullet. For a 30 cal you will need a 1/4” brass rod and two 1/4” ID collers with set screws. I got them from the local hardware  

   Very, very good method to determine O.A.L. It can be greatly simplified though by using a sharp point felt tip marker such as a Sharpie. Follow chboats procedure, except when the rod contacts the bolt face, lay the tip of the marker on the rod at about a 45° angle where it enters the barrel and them rotate the rod with your thumb and foreforefinger. Remove the rod and insert the bullet as chboats instructed. Repeat the procedure with the rod and the marker. You'll now have two marks on the rod and you just use your calipers to measure between the marks. The marks will probably be about 1/16” thick, so measure to the same side of each mark. When you're finished, the marks will just wipe off the rod with a little bore cleaner and a patch. Also, I use an aluminum rod simply because they're so much cheaper than brass, but either will work. On a another board there is a guy that is using a shot buffer to fill the case up to 100% load density he is using a slower burning powder and getting great results or so he claims. I wonder if anyone on here has tried the same?

  I know there are many pro/con arguements on this filler, but I have used it (PSB)with great success in a couple of No.4 Enfield that possessed bores in the .315-.316” range and a Lyman 314299 bullet at .314". The filler completely eliminated leading and the rifles shot infinitely more accurately.

  Next....SIMPLIFY! Eliminate every variable possible.

  Any time I'm loading anything under about 20 grs. of powder, I use a large pistol primer. Period. I experience fewer fliers with them. I've used both LP and LP magnum and can find almost no difference in performance in my rifles. If you're going to use a LR primer, stick with the same one.

  Pick one time proven mould and stick with it. Any time I get a new milsurp, Mosins included, I begin with testing it with the Lyman 314299. I've found that if a rifle won't shoot this bullets at least reasonably well, it won't shoot any other. They even shoot well in my 1903's/03A3's sized down to .310".

   Likewise, I begin my testing with 13.0 grs. of Red Dot or 16.0 grs. of AL2400. Usually the former. In fact, I have two powder measures, one of which stays filled with Red Dot and set to throw a hair under 13.0 grs. Again, I've found if a rifle won't shoot at least reasonably well with either of these combinations, it probably won't shoot.

 I've found that wheelweights will do 99% of everything I need including making bullets good enough for High Power competition on the 100 yd. reduced course. My K-31 will do about 1 3/4” 10-shot groups @ 100 yds., sometimes better with ordinary air-cooled WW's. I see no need in concocting special alloy formulas that that could possibly be difficult to repeat. If you feel you need a harder bullet, water-quench them.

  Don't sweat the small stuff!! (Yet) When I began working up a load for High Power, I lost sleep over the fact that the bullets base was protruding below the case neck. I shot anyway and found it didn't matter; the load is still crazy accurate. 

  Keep us posted.

   35W

 

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7mmxbolt posted this 23 April 2010

Vassal, followed you over from the other thread. I feel your pain and want to help in any way I can. Not saying I know everything but I have been very successful with squeezing all the accuracy I can out of every rifle I own with a cast bullet or jacketed for that matter.

When it comes to powder and 30 caliber rifles shooting cast bullets there is one powder that is probably the best all round to use which is IMR SR - 4759. Not very stabile with velocity reading but know this, Extreme spread (ES) has “NO” relationship to accuracy! It also can be position sensitive so that has to be kept in mind. Another powder is good o'l fashion Unique. These two along with AA2400 are all I ever use in all 30 cals I shoot lead out of. If you can't get SR 4759 to work that would be a hell of a surprise to me.

As I suggested in the other thread do try the round robin format and you will see better results as this method will allow you to better understand what your loads are doing. I promise!

I noticed some talk about what to use as a filler in the case, well Decron works probably the best provided you weigh it so each round has the same amount. I don't use it but I have in the past and yet to prove it to be benificial or provide better results in any applications I used it in however, 1 to 1.5 grs is more than enough to hold the charge against the primer. As long as you remember to tip the barrel up slightly before firing, there is really no need for a filler but some shooters don't want to be bothered with having to remember this.

Leading problems, as long as the barrel has been “home registered", size that bullet as large as safely possible and stick to the Carnauba Red. I always fill all grease grooves and seat long enough, when I can, to allow one groove to be exposed beyond the case neck. The use of a GC is pretty much a fail safe but if you have a Hoch nose pour mould I believe they provide the flattest bases. Try adding a little tin to your alloy, I add 1 ft of plumbers solder to 5 lbs of WW alloy. Helps the alloy fill out in the mould for a more uniform cast.

I enjoy reading threads like the one you have going here. Just when you think you know everything you end up getting schooled a little more. Not a day goes by that I don't learn something new and this is one of the forums I learned the most from.

Great stuff.......ONWARD!

 

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DAMRON G posted this 29 April 2010

I shot the lyman 323378 8mm bullet out of my Russian 91-30 a week or so ago.While accuracy wasnt steller in this rifle,it was adequate.I cast the bullet out of WW and Sterotype and it is about 18 BHN,324 dia and weighs 242g.I lube and size it in a .325 sizer and then push it though a Lee .314 die then its back to the lyman 450 for a nose first run in a .308 die.The picture of the loaded round shows the engraving on the nose and the length the bullet has gained when going to .30 cal.I only loaded 10 to try in this rifle and shot #1 was too low so i adjusted up and shot 9 into the group.The first 5 were tight and and the last 4 wandered a bit right.I have shot this load(13.0 T-Boss and LPprimer)  under 2MOA in a Finn capture 91-30 before and it seems to be as good as any other bullet i have tried.At least you get a bullet that fits the throat.I have heard of others using the Lee 8mm bullet sized down to .315-.316 with good luck.

 

George

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DAMRON G posted this 29 April 2010

the group with the 314-378 @ 100 yards.white circle in bull  is about 2” for scale.

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JSH posted this 29 April 2010

:coffee.>

"Extreme spread (ES) has “NO” relationship to accuracy!"

Maybe I am misunderstanding this statement? Chrono readings have been of a major help to me in years past, as to what loads are doing. They have given me a heads up as to some promising load/bullet combos.

I would agree with the above, when shot at say a maximum range of 100. Bad yo-yo type ES will rear it's ugly head at long range.

Care to educate me?

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Vassal posted this 29 April 2010

WOW! Thats a monster! I can't quite follow the process of preperation you have listed, As I do not have a lubrisizer, and have never used one.

I am, however, VERY interested. Are you reshaping the nose somehow? I have been trying to figure out a reasonable way to Bump the nose on the LBT, as it just needs to smidge a few thou. out of the way in order to move out of the powder space.

It is amazing and frustrating when I look at the Lee 155-2r next to the LBT, as the Lee only uses HALF of the neck and the LBT goes an entire lube groove below it -THEY ARE ALMOST THE SAME SIZE!!!!!!!!!!!:drillsgt: (yes that is relative they are 155 and 175 grains respectively) in case you can't quite follow what I am saying, that meant the LEE could probably be 180 graons and still not hang in the powder space at all! it is just the angle of the ogive. Amazin what a difference a couple of THOUSANDTHS of an inch can make.

I have decided to focus on the LEE mold. I will still shoot the LBT a little, but I think it will probably just sit on the shelf. Its a shame, but at least I know what to get next time.

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7mmxbolt posted this 29 April 2010

JSH wrote: :coffee.>

"Extreme spread (ES) has “NO” relationship to accuracy!"

Maybe I am misunderstanding this statement? Chrono readings have been of a major help to me in years past, as to what loads are doing. They have given me a heads up as to some promising load/bullet combos.

I would agree with the above, when shot at say a maximum range of 100. Bad yo-yo type ES will rear it's ugly head at long range.

Care to educate me?

JSH I would certianly be happy to discuss this further however, I feel it appropriate if done under another thread in all fairness to Vassal. I would be curious to hear how others feel about it as well.

Start the thread and I am sure you will find many would contribute to the topic.

 

Bill

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DAMRON G posted this 29 April 2010

Vassal wrote: It is amazing and frustrating when I look at the Lee 155-2r next to the LBT, as the Lee only uses HALF of the neck and the LBT goes an entire lube groove below it -THEY ARE ALMOST THE SAME SIZE!!!!!!!!!!!:drillsgt: (yes that is relative they are 155 and 175 grains respectively) in case you can't quite follow what I am saying, that meant the LEE could probably be 180 graons and still not hang in the powder space at all! it is just the angle of the ogive. Amazin what a difference a couple of THOUSANDTHS of an inch can make.

I have decided to focus on the LEE mold. I will still shoot the LBT a little, but I think it will probably just sit on the shelf. Its a shame, but at least I know what to get next time.

"Are you reshaping the nose somehow? I have been trying to figure out a reasonable way to Bump the nose on the LBT"

I use the lubesizer as mentioned before running the bullet in nose first in a .308 sizer to taper the ft of the bullet down a bit.If you had a Lee push through .308 die you could push it partially in and make a knockout rod of some sort to eject it.I used to taper .35 rifle bullet noses this way in a 32-20 seating die.Slow,but it works.

I dont stress about the bullet base being into the powder space as being a huge accuraccy killer..I would guess the bullet not getting into he throat and engaging properly to be the problem.

just a guess?

 

George

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Vassal posted this 01 May 2010

I see now that DAMRON G has told me about the “nose first in a 308 about three times already!  .>

I might try it, but if it isn't the seating depth then,,,,,

I can't understand why it would engage the rifling so poorly and the Lee (which is 2-3 thou. smaller than the chamber allows (i.e. no guidance there) and slightly out of round would engage it succesfully..?

Should I try to set it HARD into the lands? This is where it becomes difficult to tell how far it goes before just seating itself. (As I believe 7mmXb hsa suggested)

I have started to get some better results, from the Lee. I guess I just had to break these barrels in. I have been shooting my “well shot” M39 with cast instead of the one earlier pictured (which has begun to offer good groups with jacketed it is at about 100 round count now.) I think that switch might last. The 315-175-sp.8 has (at best) grouped 2-3 X the size of the Lee.

The M39 last posted these groups, shot on a VERY windy day and with abou 85% dedication. Meaning - in order for me to get the really good groups at 100yd, I end up shooting REALLY slowly. I did not shoot that slowly, but did aim pretty well here.

These were shot using a FL die to size the body but NOT the shoulder, a N die to size the rest of the neck, and then a M-die to expand them. (by the way I think this brass is due for annealing)

the three shot group was shot first and with a touch more care, the others were the last ten of the day. (the wind was gusting up to,,,oh say,,,18mph. thats a total guess, but it was blow your hat off windy) All are Lee 155-2r, on the lands with BAC lube, on top of A2400 @ 14.0gr and a CCI LPmag.

 

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Vassal posted this 01 May 2010

I Have also been told that shooting my bullets the day to week after casting may be causing some of the trouble. I know they harden over time, but will they be inconsistant? 

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DAMRON G posted this 01 May 2010

"I Have also been told that shooting my bullets the day to week after casting may be causing some of the trouble. I know they harden over time, but will they be inconsistant? "

I have shot .30 caliber bullets cast the night before and got good groups the next afternoon.I have shot the same bullets a week later with the same accuracy.I did not water quench the bullets and they were WW + tin or linotype.None were shot faster than about 1500 so maybe higher pressure loads would shoot bad when so “young"

but.........

A friend of mine has shot .22 cast bullets within minutes of being cast ,only waiting enough for them to be cool enough so the lube wouldnt melt off.When shot in a Remington 40X in .222 @1600fps they still grouped under 1.25” at 100.This gun when doing its best will shoot quite a few 1/2” groups with cast, although that seems hard to belive i have seen the targets to prove it.

PS-

 Shot plainbse loads in my 91-30 issue sight gun today with some promise i think. I shot 185g and 180g FN SAECO's(#540 and #529) and a 190g Modern Bond spitzer.One 5 shot group was a bit under 1.5” a few were just over 2". Three 10 shot groups had 7-8 in the “core" into 2",but  total 10 shot groups were a bit over 3".Load was 10.5 T-Boss and Win LP primer in neck sized cases with bullets barley in the necks .

George

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 01 May 2010

Vassal wrote: I Have also been told that shooting my bullets the day to week after casting may be causing some of the trouble. I know they harden over time, but will they be inconsistant? 

This is addressed in Cast Bullets by E H Harrison which is an NRA publication and probably no longer available.  Your stated alloy is 3-6-91 which might be somewhere in the area of 16 BHN.  There is a chart in the article tiitled “Lead Alloys Age Harden” that might give you some guidance as to what your cast bullets may be doing.  Wether this has any affect on your bullet performance would depend upon the pressures your loads generate, but might create an undesireable variable. 

At 4 days the bullets test at 9.5

8 days                                10

12 days                              12.5

16 days                              13

20 days                             16

Duane

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Vassal posted this 01 May 2010

WOWEE. I guess I didn't realize that they hardened that much. I guess I'll have to cast a whole bunch and let them sit. I usually cast 100 or so good ones and then shoot them.

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DAMRON G posted this 01 May 2010

"I guess I'll have to cast a whole bunch and let them sit"

Just drop them directly in water from the mold and they usually will be max hardness in about 12 hours.Also you will gain some hardness.

George

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7mmxbolt posted this 01 May 2010

Vassal those “scatter groups” are a clear indication that with the charge you are using they are just outside the vibration nodes of your rifle. I would concentrate on moving the charge either up or down until they are hitting close to the same point of impact. Once you can find two or three charge weights within say 1.25% of each other, that hit that same point of impact, center your charge within them and then concentrate on bullet seating to close up the groups. Just make sure you know what the velocity is and start targeting that velocity with the different powders. Every rifle has a number of velocity nodes in which it will tune in at. You just need to find what they are. For example one of my rifles tunes in at 1600 fps then again at 2100 fps and then again at 3200 fps. Depending on what type of bullet or type of shooting I am doing, whether it be a hunting round with a jacketed bullet or a cast round for competition, as soon as I know these “good” nodes I can tune in any bullet with no trouble at all.

As far as seating to the lands, there isn't one guy I shoot with every Monday that doesn't seat the bullet as deep as his rifle will allow him to within a safe limit. You have to remember if your shooting a “reduced load” with cast bullets you are no where near your pressure max. I seat .030 into the lands and allow my action to finish seat the bullet into the case. Plus I am sizing .003 over groove diameter! If you have to don't size the necks at all as long as it will hold your bullet. If your case neck won't hold the bullet, your bullets are probably under sized for your barrel to begin with. Some guys I know use one case only all day long during competition and just knock out the primer, press a new one in, recharge and go.

This is no joke!  

Bill

 

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tturner53 posted this 02 May 2010

IMHO bolt has hit the nail on the head. Been casting a long time and shooting them, just recently started figuring this out. I must be a slow learner. Everything changed when I joined the CBA, made more progress in two years than I did in the first 20.

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CB posted this 02 May 2010

TT, The CBA is a great resource, I left the CBA a long time ago due to my work and upon returning I leaped a decade all at once.

These old MilSurp rilfes are really fun and great for shooting CBs

These days I have the time to do some experiments, so with one rifle I am going to shoot CBs made from WWs and let the lead build up until the build up stops, probably shooting this all summer at least 3 times a week.

There are so many guns out there and not enough times to shoot them all.

Jerry

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DAMRON G posted this 02 May 2010

 I see the ladder testing idea rearing its ugly head again<G> I haven't found the need to get that technical,i am a “recipe guy” and find if 14-16 2400,12-13 Unique or 15-18 5744 wont shoot in most military cases  with a bullet well fit to the throat other problems are hiding.Lately 12-13 of TrailBoss is quite a nice one too.

With plainbase loads @1100-1200 in my 30-06 uniform SD's and ES's are absolutely necessary for good accuracy.Very few small groups have SD's much over 10-12 but some large groups have SD's in single digits ?? At 1400-1500 i have had great accuracy and SD's in the high 30's and ES's in the 70 range.

Much of it has to do with careful gun handling on the bag and seeing the sights well that day for me.

George

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Vassal posted this 02 May 2010

yes, it is difficult to route out fine details shooting milsurp issue sites at 100 yds, BUT I think it can be done.

The vibration nodes thing seems sensible, BUT why would the Lee bullet work OK at these various velocities, and the LBT NEVER work well at all.

 I just got back from the range and with 15.1 of 2400 I couldn't even hit the paper! I don't get it. I found what I believed to be the site setting for a couplke of rounds and then it changed or something. I proceeded to knock out some stellar groups with jacketed though (I have finally gotten light bullets to work well by using 4895 and the new 123grain V-max)

once again the same charge with the Lee bullet worked much better - about the same as the groups pictured from last time. these aren't terrific but at least they are reasonable. This LBT only has one more hope - changing the nose. If that isn't possible or doesn't work it is a total failure.

I don't know exactly how the ladder testing is done, but the LBT bullet is so inaccurate I can't even tell where its going! Surely it was just offering flyers and needed a different setting I did not find, BUT even so I am already setting my sights at 500-600YD setting for this thing! If it was accurate enough to worry about I would need to flip the sight over just to shoot at 200!

It seems as if I probably should have just stayed with a proven design. But of course I went through three Lyman molds before I resorted to this one! I have now tried 8 mold for this rifle and BY A HUGE AMOUNT the best is still the twenty dollar Lee mold I bought first!:jawdrop::cusout:

I am considering just postponing my writing in this thread untill I get a good mold. which may take another year for the unemployed! The Lee is just not heavy enough for what I want.

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DAMRON G posted this 02 May 2010

" I just got back from the range and with 15.1 of 2400 I couldn't even hit the paper!"

With the GC or plainbse bullet?

I have tried many designs in the 7.62 x 54 and never have had results as bad as yours with proper sized bullets(.309 dia bullets all shot bad) with one exeption.The bullet that failed to shoot under 5” and it was an LBT 190g plainbse with a .308 nose and .312 body.In fairness it was not designed for the rifle,but it should have shot.it never engraved  rifling,it just sort of bumped it.It may be these guns dont like bullets of this large nose style.Although my 323378 sized down is about the same thing it engraves in the throat nicely as the picture a few posts back shows

George

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Vassal posted this 02 May 2010

it was the PB. sized to .315, which is max for this chamber and brass combo. It may have been the sight setting. It was surely at least partially/mostly responsible, BUT I did find it for a couple of rounds before I shot the group !!:wtf:

Oh well, I am about finished reporting bad results. it feels Like I am whining,,  I sort of feel like whining.

                                                    :vio:

I'll wait till I make some progress to report again.

Of course i will likely be burdoned by many questions related to loading and casting generally in the mean time.:kilroy:

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DAMRON G posted this 02 May 2010

Vassal wrote: it was the PB. sized to .315, which is max for this chamber and brass combo. It may have been the sight setting. It was surely at least partially/mostly responsible,  

I think that 15.1g load may be a bit hot for a plainbase.I shoot 10-11 of 2400 in the 30-06 and 7.62 x 54.

George

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Vassal posted this 02 May 2010

yea I gues that may be it. I didn't get leading though.:D  I was trying to change the charge  (I used 14 last time) to see if it made a difference. I should have probably tried to go down instead of up. Really I should have probably stuck with SR4756, since that has given me the best groups, But with all this weird stuff going on I figured i might be better using a more widley used powder. As some say, if it won't shoot reasonably well with 16 gc or 12 pb of 2400 somethings probably wrong.

ITS WRONG.!  OH SO WRONG! :shock:

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7mmxbolt posted this 02 May 2010

It's real simple......21-22 grains SR-4759 or 15-16 grains of Unqiue....size your bullets .003 over groove diameter......lube with Carnauba red.......neck size only and stay away from the shoulder.......Lyman M die the necks......stay with a  170 to 195 grain GC bullet and foreget about flat base for now.......seat those bullets deep in the lands. Aim for 1600 fps and DON'T CONCERN YOURSELF WITH EXTREME SPREAD! your waisting your time and money! Unless you plan to shoot out beyond 600 yards with a cast bullet. Get it to shoot at 50 yards first especially with iron sights...baby steps....then move out 100 yards. If you can get the rifle to shoot a clover leaf at 50 yards chances are it should produce a 1” CTC group at 100 yards. If not even close, the rifle may have something seriously wrong with it or you need more trigger time shooting from the bench. Make sure you have a rock steady rest and every trigger pull needs to be a surprise when the round goes off. If your anticipating the fire, you are pulling your shot. You should have no more than a 2lb trigger pull and even less is better. All my rifles either hunting or competition are set to 13 oz.

You have made so many different changes with your cartridge it's hard to make heads or tails which way you need to go. I learn a long time ago you make one change at a time, if it improves stick with it, if it doesn't dump it and move on.

 

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DAMRON G posted this 03 May 2010

It's probably been dealt with,but have you checked your action screws ?

I had one of my Mosin's go haywierd today, I hadn't shot the gun in a few weeks and it was shooting horrible with a plainbase load that shot pretty well in two other guns.While i was hunkering down and concentrating on getting a good “cheek weld” i felt movement of the tang under my thumb when the shot broke.Got out the screwdriver and almost two full turns later the groups were 1/2 the size and dropped 4".

George

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JetMech posted this 03 May 2010

My $.02. First, check your rifle, as George has noted. It is confusing trying to follow your progress because you change rifles/powder charges/lube/bullet/etc. too much. In all honesty, one of the combinations you have already discarded may have proven to be a good load.

Simplify. One rifle, one bullet (start with a CG design), lube all grooves, one powder, one seating depth (somewhere near or on the lands). Shoot 1 or 2 10 groups at one powder charge.  Work your load up in .5 gr increments, from the low end (estimate your already at the low end) up thru 1800fps. Shoot carefully, consistantly. Evaluate the groups. You may put 7 of 10 in a 1.5 in group with a couple flyers, then you work on eliminating the flyers, once you have a combination that will deliver some consistancy. The problem is you don't shoot any one combination enough to make a valid evaluation, IMHO.

If you run thru that entire sequence and your results are still not good, I would change the alloy hardness by water-dropping them and run thru the sequence one more time.

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Vassal posted this 03 May 2010

Yes I think this is too complicated to manouvre on-line. I think the issues are getting jumbled. I write more than people want to read and still don't even begin to discuss all that is relevant.

I will write again whaen I have good results.

Thank you all

 

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DAMRON G posted this 11 May 2010

I got around to scoping a Mosin with an ATI bolt and mount kit.The system works decent,but the 10-32 tap included is garbage and wont hardly cut.I ended up using a quality American 10-24 i had in the shop and bought new screws from the hardware store.

The rifle is a $80 1941 Russian 91-30 with  a good bore with a bit of very very light "frosting” near the throat .It has not been counter bored and has a perfect crown.I stuck with my 11.5 TrailBoss load and pistol primers for the test.Surprisingly it shoots a .312 dia 190g  Modern Bond plainbase spitzer pretty well.I have shot  a couple of 5 shot groups into 1"-1.25” @ 100 and only was over 2” out of the 10 groups fired with that bullet.After work today i shot four consecutive 5 shot groups @100 that went 1.15",1.38",1.75” and 2.12".(The biggest group had 4 into 1.2” and that darn wild one) I find i need to brush the bore two r three strokes( no solvents!) about every 5-6 shots to keep the throat clean or groups shift down and right.After the brushing I can keep shooting and the bullets keep falling in the group.I have shot three 10 shot groups and cant quite keep them all under 2",but it sure is trying! As much as i am a 2400 and Bullseye  guy TrailBoss is working very well in the 7.62 x 54.

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Vassal posted this 11 May 2010

THats terrific!!- those groups sound great.

Also WHAT 190gr bullet are you shooting at .312?????

TELL ME PLEASE!  I am only aware of the Hornady (and expensive woodleigh) in .312 dia. and the speer and sierra at .311. the Russians MUST have the .312's forgroups like that. I will have to load some up and shoot some 5 and 10 shot groups.

I usually shoot either 3 or 5.

It is funny because I too am about to get a mount!. I have a new Weaver K6 and Leupold rings waiting!!

I believe I may have figured out part of my problems with the Mosins and cast, but I'll need a few more trips to the range before I am sure ((I.E. Before I have enough info to open my mouth:kilroy:)). I'll definitely write back here when I do. 

Great shooting G.D.    

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Vassal posted this 31 May 2010

OK. I have been steadlily working on wringing accuracy out of these rifles - I believe I am there:D  For those that have been following, I will briefly describe what I believe to have been my greatest trouble - Seating depth, or OAL. Never having dealt with a custom bullet, or more precisley, a custom FIT bullet, I made a few mistakes. When I first recieved the mold I had not worked over a sizing die to size to the proper size, so I believe I simply used an unsized bullet to asertain the seating depth which would leave a loaded round “on the lands." The mold having been cut to cast WW at .315 - bullets when cast using my personal mix of Hardball run a bit over .316. The chamber allows for .315. That gave me a reading far to short for properly sized bullets. That was essentially it. After talking with Veral about how he designed the mold, I decided to try it that way. I should mention that I did chamber some longer at first, but it was probably before I honed the sizing die; they pushed deeper into the brass.

     This has been my first experience with most of this stuff, and attempting it alone with only forums and e-mails like this is very difficult. We think we communicate pretty well - untill critical and detailed subjects come up between people with no prior background. Any way I have mixed down my alloy a bit adding 8lb of ww to 26lb of rich hardball. I also size to .315 and load them TIGHT into the lands. These things fit like a glove. so well in fact that if theu were even a thousandth of an inch bigger, they might not work   .>.       :doooah:

I have used the loads that seemed best from my prior shooting on two range trips now. the first very casual, the second a bit more serious. I have made a template to reproduce the MR31, and MR52 targets. My second trip was a bit late in the day and short - but I didn't shoot all the ammo!:thumbsup:

My PB load using 2500+ lube and 9gr of sr4765 shot pretty well, but I can't find the target. I also tried 10gr of TBoss it was quiet, and almost as accurate. The real winner has been the load suggested to me from the start by the BOSS -Veral smith. Using 4198 and shooting for about 1900fps (chrono wouldn't read yesterday for som reason?) I shot great with both guns. I had five rounds for Lyudmila my most pristine and gorgous 91-30. I used two to determine the best sight setting for 100yd (200) and three for group. the group measures .430":cba:

I also shot a similiar load with My 67 M39 at 200. It shot about 3". That is pretty good for starting, but I should mention that I have mounted a Weaver K6 on this gun. I hope to use it for scoped and the 91-30 for issue. looks like I missed this year but I'll be waiting and training for next! By the way the pic is of a center I printed and then hung on my painted target.  

ALSO I joined a gun club which allows shooting out to 560YD! Joining this club feels like the best thing to happen to me in 7-8 years! It is only 50mn drive away (which I drove before anyway) CMP affiliated (with ARA and rimfire sillhouette also) and AFFORDABLE! It seems like things are really starting to fall in place!

I will continue to shoot,   I will continue to report back here.

We are on our way to a hard fought victory!

After posting I realized that that group looks like more than three - it is NOT. There are two shots used to figure the sight setting (one at 200, then one at 150) and then the three shot group (which for some reason looks like five.)

two sighters and one THREE SHOT GROUP 100yd Iron Sites 1936 91-30 laminate

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nimrod posted this 31 May 2010

WTG Vassel glad to hear that the mold worked out for you now you can really work up some good loads. Sure makes you feel good when things come together after a lot of flustrating tries. Seems to me in all of this cast bullet shooting stuff real accuracy is only about a half of thousands of a inch away which may as well be a mile if you are on the wrong side of the scale.

Looking forward to some more great reports.

Richard Missourians for Mosins

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JetMech posted this 31 May 2010

You're getting there! Your perseverance is paying off. Keep it up.:^:

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plus1hdcp posted this 07 June 2010

Vassal, in your last post it sounds like you settled on 4198 as your powder of choice looking for 1900fps. As I do not yet have a chrono, how many grains are you using to achieve this speed?

By the way, thanks for a great thread.

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Vassal posted this 07 June 2010

25 +/- grains of H4198 behind LBT spitzer @.315 wight with lube and GC is around 175. Lubed with White Label BAC, and primed with Fed LR match or other standard LR. These are seated HARD into the lands. I have been shooting an alloy near what is referred to as hardball, though now I have cut that again with roughly another %20 of WW.

I have been using H4198 because it is working though the design was to switch to A5744. For some reason it doesn't work as well. WHY?-- can't imagine.

PB loads have nice with Trail Boss and SR 4756.

I still have alot of refining to do but this is definitley a SOLID starting point. The key has been bullet fit in the chamber. having a custom bullet fit so tightly threw me for a moment, but now it is performing.

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plus1hdcp posted this 07 June 2010

Thanks for the reply. I have tried 2400 and my shots were all over the place and it seems as though a change in powder may be warranted. I look forward to my next trip to the fun store to pick up a pound of powder and try some.

It is great to get to the range and fire some mil-surplus downrange but nothing beats the experimentation to find out what you can craft and work well in your equipment.

Thanks again, and I will report back with my results.

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Vassal posted this 08 June 2010

I look forward to hearing your results.

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plus1hdcp posted this 13 June 2010

Keyhole was the word of the day. Using a Lee mold + GC with an overall weight of 175 +- and 25 gr of H4198. These are sized to 314. This is where I wish a chronograph was in my goodie bag, but maybe in the future. I have used this bullets sized to .312 with success in 7.62X39 so I am confident in the lead mix.

I have two initial thoughts. A new mold may need to be in my future because .314-.315 is what this are dropping. Also, I am using a universal case mouth expander die to bell the case mouths. Perhaps I need to talk to Lee and have them send a .303 brit expander die to use in my resizer die.

On another note, my last trip to the range with these bullets sized to .312, while lacking in the accuracy department did not keyhole.

Any ideas will be appreciated and I will keep up with my experiment.

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Vassal posted this 13 June 2010

That is strange. There is no reason that the velocity and twist should have done that. I assume you are shooting a russian or finnish bolt action. Others know more than me so take my words on this with consideration. I don't think that the diameter is the problem either. They might be too fast. What is the barrel condition like? if it is peppered, you might try reducing to 22 and working up.

My last range trip has provided yet onother lesson which may be relevant. in shooting my PB load of 12-13 T Boss, I realized that primer and lube switches can be MAJOR in the velocity dept. I got 1400 with 12gr & win primer & BAC (canuba added) lube when 12.5 and CCI prime & 2500+ lube gave 1328; the same rifle!!! - By the way the carnuba did NOT lead at this velocity when the other lube did at less speed.:idea1:

I also wonder about your seating depth. were they on the lands?

By the way I wish my lee 185 303Brit mold cast at 315. mine casts at 311-312 and is worthless to me.

In would reduce velocity and try again. If my experience can teach anything it is that progress sometimes comes with cost. It does however, come  :armyhelmet:

Maybe other could help, because I really can't tell. Thanks for reporting back. I hope to post a progress report after my next trip.

I will continue shoot

 I will continue to report back here

We are on our way to a hard fought victory! 

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303Guy posted this 18 June 2010

I find i need to brush the bore two r three strokes( no solvents!) about every 5-6 shots to keep the throat clean or groups shift down and right. I have a new trick I am testing, that is to put the bore cleaner between the powder and the boolit in the form of a case filler.  My material of choise is wheat bran.  It does raise the chamber pressure but it also protects the casting ad really cleans the bore.  The downside is that it's a pain to get into the case.

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DAMRON G posted this 23 August 2010

Today's shooting with 14.0 trail Boss Win Lg Pistol Primer and the 314299 and one group with the NEI #72 shown(center high).Groups are 2-1/8” to 2-3/4".There are two other groups in the black bulls above with the #72 i couldn't fit in the picture that are 3-1/2” and 2-3/4") Gun is 1940's vintage $79.00 91-30 with ATI scope mount and handle unmodified except for  mounting 6X scope.All shooting at 200 yards,5 shot groups,with a bit of wind quartering.I am finding 14.0 of T-Boss hard to beat in the 8mm,7.62R and 30-06 lately.

George

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Vassal posted this 23 August 2010

Good Shooting. I can se it will be difficult to catch up with Castmaster G. Since you have already modified the scope you might consider ordering a set of pillars from ROCK SOLID and putting some acraglass in there. might become a LASER.

I haven't been shooting much for the past week or so. I'm a bit heartbroken as I realised that the ONE DAY out of the whole year that I am obligated to something that can't be changed has aligned itself with the day of the regionals in KC. I have been getting ready to shoot a CBA match for nearly two years!:vio: I guess at least when next year comes around I'll be ready to go.

I just placed a monster order with Powder valley including some russian primers and plenty of powder including 5744 and Tboss. I'll be posting here soon with some groups of my own,,,I hope.

By the way I also ordered some berdan primers, I hope they fit the big Russian, if not I'll just use them for AK brass.

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DAMRON G posted this 19 September 2010

Today i shot “Joe's load” AKA Argie1891 on this site. I used it with the NEI #72 Harris Bullet in my 7.62 x 45 Russian 91-30 w 15X scope.Joe's load is 12.0 of Unique in anything that holds a  bullet over 7mm and holds more than the 30-30.Also shot 14.0 of TrailBoss and an LBT 200 Loverin i had made up.I had one LBT that had a band collapse when i sized it.I marked it and shot it in one group.It went about 2” out,not as bad as i had thought.The two ten shot groups with Unique and the NEI were 1-5/8” and 1-1/4” and the best the rifle has done.

Unique is cheaper to shoot and appears as accurate as TB,i may go back to Unique.

All at 100 yards of course.

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DAMRON G posted this 19 September 2010

the lucky 10 shot groups

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raytear posted this 19 September 2010

George,

Great group! Actually, 2 great groups. Do you have such strokes of luck very frequently with that rifle?

RT

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DAMRON G posted this 19 September 2010

The rifle doesn't always shoot that well,but i'll take it!.There are 60 shots on the big paper so you can see what it does longer term.A couple of the 5 shot groups are 1".I have two other non scoped Russian Mosins with good bores that shoot too.I am thinking if a 91-30 has a good bore and crown it will shoot very well.

Here are two with one 91-30 @ 100 with issue sights and it about average for it and the other i have.(i may have posted this group before i cant remember)

George

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Vassal posted this 20 September 2010

nice shooting!

I really need to get back to work with the MOsins. I havent been shooting them since I realized I wasn't going to make the Regionals. (I did shoot about twenty rounds the day of the regionals - The performance was less than stellar so I won't mention it)

Great posts also.  Thanks for the info.

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Vassal posted this 20 September 2010

PS.

I got mu forst bag of Lapua Brass in this caliber a couple of weeks ago. I noticed that it seemed to have the shoulder set slightly different than the PPU/NNY brass. Once fireformed thats no issue BUT the enduring issue is capacity. The Lapua brass holds (if I remember right) about 2grains less than the PPU!  WHAT! that means new loads for full-power.  I am also much less enthused about the advantage such pricey (2X the cost!) brass offers. It will save me some prep and sorting but it has yet to be proven if I get any appreciable advantage. I should have known, since I have (on occasion) gotten such good results with the PPU brass.

I also picked up another FL sizer for this caliber. The relevance here is that it sizes the base (near the head/web) almost .002” more than the old one! I have yet to check any of the concentricity BUT I am suprised that there is that much varience in sizers. Both are RCBS. Oh well I didn't really need the sizer anyway. I just ordered it as a set 'cuz the seater was almost as much by itself.

Thanks for keeping me motivated and focused. I fell the need to post some good groups and keep up (at least try) with Castmaster G!

I might be getting distracted though, as I talked to my G-smith (I finally found one!) and my Savage should be done this week! Next time I see her she'll be wearing a 29” HART #7 chambered in 6.5 BPC! (AKA GRENDEL) I suppose thats a different thread though.

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chasw posted this 06 November 2010

Vassal: I have embarked on a similar mission to help my 4 Mosin rifles be all they can be, with cast bullets of course. As usual, these rifles have very generous throats and bores. The number one rifle, a near new Polish M44, mikes out at .315” groove diameter. As you would expect, .311” Sierra ProHunters, among the best jacketed choices, are at a disadvantage.

The best advice I've heard from other cast bullet shooters is, size your bullet to the largest diameter that will chamber without binding. It turns out the limiting factor is the inside diameter of the neck portion of the chamber. For my rifles, this means size to .314", regardless of throat and groove dimensions. So far the results are promising with Lyman 314299 pills, but I have a custom LBT mold on the way that should be the ne plus ultra for my 4 pet rifles.

As for loads, I find the sweet spot is with 27 grains of Reloder 7, 1.5gr of dacron and Fed 210M primers under the aforementioned Lyman 208 grainer. Brass is Lapua, very sturdy stuff. - CW


Fortune favors the bold - so said Pliny the Elder on his last day as he sailed under the volcano at Herculaneum in AD 79

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DAMRON G posted this 06 November 2010

chasw wrote:  Brass is Lapua, very sturdy stuff. - CW


  I've got 25+ firings so far on my WW (European import) brass and have been pretty happy with it.Lapua is pretty nice stuff,how is it holding up?I might have to break down and order 200 or so.

George

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Vassal posted this 07 November 2010

I ordered a bag of lapua brass awhile back, I haven't been working with cast much lately (I have been waylayed with a nightmare 6.5BPC/ Grendel project ) BUT I have been able to see NO difference ON THE TaRGETS. I love my Baltic Brass (PPU) It is accurate if I do everything else right. I suppose it is probably worth it theoretically but my PPU shoots pretty good AND I have yet to decommision ANY of it Including some which has been used for jacketed loads many (read about 13+) times.  Considering the fact that Lapua is TWICE the price,,,, umm,,well,,? 

In fact I loaded some “playin' around” PB loads in Serbian brass for today- (while I do yet MORE testing trying to figure out the BPC)

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nimrod posted this 07 November 2010

Glad to see this thread going again, I've got me a new Mosin a 39 Finn much better than the old Russian beater ditch rifle that I started with. I've had the best luck with the Saeco 315 and 2400 although several other combinations have worked well. Right now just going through some molds that I have to see what shows promise and what doesn't. Probably going to be a LBT mold made just for it as soon as I figure out what I need.

Richard Missourians for Mosins

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tturner53 posted this 07 November 2010

The Finns and the 7.62x54 have been used to win many matches.

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DAMRON G posted this 07 November 2010

I had my load of 12.0 of Unique with the NEI 72 Harris bullet go haywire today.Last weekend it shot 2” to 2-1/2” groups at 100 in a 91-30 with good,but not perfect bore.Today with the same load,same lot of ammo it shot 6"-8” groups!Bore looked fine,go figure???

George

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Ed Harris posted this 08 November 2010

George you have somehow evoked Loki and angered the forest trolls. You must clean your rifle with poisonous venom and make an offering of fire lit from the vile droppings to Odin to purify it.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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redball 2 posted this 08 November 2010

I use almost the same method to find the overall length of a cartridge and a approate bullet except you only need a quarter inch dowel at lest 30 inches long and a sharpened pencil. close the bolt and insert the dowel in the barrel from the muzzle until it is hard against the bolt with the sharp pencil mark the dowel at the face of the barrel. remove the bolt and insert a bullet as far into the chamber of the rifle. put the dowel in the barrel again until it is against the bullet. mark it. the difference between these lines is the approate overall length.

Jim Wilcox

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JetMech posted this 09 November 2010

Ed Harris wrote: George you have somehow evoked Loki and angered the forest trolls. You must clean your rifle with poisonous venom and make an offering of fire lit from the vile droppings to Odin to purify it. I've heard that the use of mass produced, gilding metal projectiles would result in such a reaction. That's why I religiously avoid it.

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canalupo posted this 09 November 2010

I currently evoke the travelocity gnome for such cleansings or the E-trade Kid.

Bob D

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Ed Harris posted this 09 November 2010

canalupo wrote: I currently evoke the travelocity gnome for such cleansings or the E-trade Kid.

Bob D I suppose that's OK, but a hasty votive, torching off used, dirty gun cleaning patches and Ed's Red flushed from the bore into a jar lid seem an appropriate burnt offering to conjure up the Waldgeist while chanting Old Dan Tucker or whatever tune floats your boat.   8-)

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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nimrod posted this 09 November 2010

I see what I've been doing wrong now!

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DAMRON G posted this 09 November 2010

Ed Harris wrote: George you have somehow evoked Loki and angered the forest trolls. You must clean your rifle with poisonous venom and make an offering of fire lit from the vile droppings to Odin to purify it. I am about to resort to cleaning the rifle though i detest doing so! The only thing i have changed is having gone from NRA formula to Lee Liq. alox on some of the plainbase loads.There is a possibility of lube overlap having effects.Could it be?

George

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