Is this even an ok topic? Does anyone make their own currently, or does anyone have any first-hand experience from having made it in the past. I believe it is legal in many of the United States to make small batches for ones own shooting use. All of the ingredients are legal to buy in most places. I am reading up on the topic. I have completed my first batch but haven't fired any of it yet.
Homemade Black Powder
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- Last Post 02 May 2010
Sure its ok. We want a report with pictures, I'm sure many members will want to see your process and results, I know I do.
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If all you do is dry mix the three main ingredients (previously and SEPARATELY ground very fine) in the proper proportions you will likely be very, very disappointed with the results. If you try to make black powder the way commercial manufacturers do, you may subject yourself to dangers that I would not personally want to experience. I do NOT recommend it. The real stuff made by commercial manufacturers is available, and it will be MUCH better than any home made powder for SHOOTING purposes. And, you will not have to worry about becoming a victim of fire and/or explosion in its preparation.
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i have tried it, wasn't very rewarding other then the fact that i did it, i used it in one of those cabellas .44 navy pistols and had to double the charge then the normal to get any good performance out of it, also it fouled up alot more. my main problem was that it wasn't as volatile as the store bought, and i couldn't get it to stay in a granular form, it would always break up when you touched it, and all the secrets on how to do it are, well secret.
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Thanks TTurner for encouraging me to write more. Thanks for your report, jppr! After you doubled the load, how did it shoot? Did it light up each time, or did you have misfires? It is first-hand reports like yours that I am looking for.
My first batch seems to be able to stay granular pretty well - but I don't know much else about it. I live in a city and my outdoor range membership has expired. I either need to get myself invited to another range, or go visit a rural friend.
I used a small plastic ball mill (toy rock polisher - runs off of a wall wart) with some lead balls in it and actually mixed the three components with it. Afterwards I added water, made a ball that I thought was the right consistency and rubbed it on a window screen to make my granules. Bad sized ones I mushed back into a ball and ran them through the screen again.
Three things I will do differently on my next batch:
1) I made small pieces of mesquite charcoal and just put them in the mill. Some of them never disappeared, so I ended up pulling them out - thus throwing off my percentages. Just now I have run some more mesquite charcoal through a food processor, so it is very fine dust. What a mess!
2) The sulfur I got was all wrong. It is garden sulfur, but only 40% of it is free sulfur. The rest is in the form of gypsum. So I put twice the weight of this in than the formula calls for. I will find a better source of sulfur for my next batch. Imagine using drywall as filler - The original non-combustible powder - Brady Approved Non Propellant
3) I will add some water to the ball mill and let it work as a slurry. As long as it is moist it can't accidentally ignite. I'll end up adding water anyway for the screening-corning step, so why not add it early?
I did put some of this stuff in a disposable cup and burned it. It was at least not fire-proof:D,actually burned pretty darn quick, but I would guess at best it won't be any better performing than jppr26's powder, and probably worse.
I also want to try a 70% saltpeter, 30% charcoal batch. This may just be my next batch.
If a ball and this powder fills the chamber on my .44 and gives me something like a “cowboy” load, I will feel like I have somewhat of a success, since many people are adding wonderwads, cream of wheat, etc to have a full chamber.
As far as the size of this batch, I used 70 grams of saltpeter, 15 grams of charcoal and 20 grams of the garden sulfur, so you can see that this was a fairly small batch - the ball of wet stuff wasn't a great deal larger than a golf ball. I didn't want to waste a bunch of my saltpeter on a bogus experiment, nor did I want to be dealing with a big batch until I had proven out other issues, not to exclude safety
At some point I need to put a batch of this powder as mill dust in a plastic jar similar to my ball mill container and blow it up so I can get an idea of what sort of incendiary problem I would face if my mill blows up. I think that would be fine in my back yard, but I will probably do it in the 'burbs to be safe. And of course I really need to stuff some into some cartridges (.32 S&W would be a good, small test) and my brass wonder .44 and see what happens when I light it off.
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Sounds like a fun project Bruce. If you continue and can still type by all means give us a report! I'm always interested in stuff like this. That said, I don't want to encourage you to do something dangerous, you're on your own when playing mad scientist. I've had a lot of interesting ideas and projects that were not that safe or smart, they were just interesting. Do your homework if you persist, respect what you're trying to make. I think I remember a thread here about home made, maybe search this site. Last, to put things in perspective, imagine holding a common firecracker in your hand while it goes off, then maybe a M-80, or quarter stick? Be careful. By the way, Grafs and Son sells the real deal cheap and will ship it to your door. I admire the spirit of your intentions, not sure about the wisdom.:D
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The typical efficiency of home-made BP is about 50% of commercial powder. I think that's because Swiss uses a 3 ton mill and Goex uses a slightly smaller one. So, given that a cartridge designed for BP can not be overloaded, in fact 100% fill is required, your velocity with home-made will be significantly lower. My 45-70 gets about 1350fps w/525gn bullet useg Goex 2F, using home-made will probably be sruggling to get 7-800 fps. Muzzle-loaders are another thing, though. A typical 50 cal uses 100gn of 2F. You could, based on testing, probably double that and get respectable velocity, but the inefficiency of home-made would leave extensive fouling. My brother and I have talked about this and he's thinking about making his own for cannons. There, he uses 1/10th the “normal", designed loads, because he's not trying to throw a Campbell's soup can filled with quick-crete 2 miles, just a couple hundred yards. You might check with the cannon builders on Greybeards forum. Those guys might have some good tips.
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Just a note on the charcoal for home made BP. Seems like I read somewhere that the best charcoal for BP was made from willow. And that, supposedly, is what the English used when producing some of the best BP ever made in days past.
That older English BP was supposedly very powerful and the fouling markedly reduced .
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Everyone will agree that good charcoal is one of the secrets. I am interested in finding where mesquite rates on the continuum. At this point I will stick with it as a constant and try to get some data together. Later, perhaps I can branch into charcoal making - which is really a hobby in itself.
Graybeard cannon builders? I'll have to give it a read. Thanks, guys, for the input.
I still think that there is room for a reduced-power powder, so that reduced loads can be made without fillers in cartridges and BP revolvers. Remember, a feature is just a bug that has made it through the marketing department!
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this is where i got the info at hope it helps, as for the power in the pistol i was using, 30gr would bounce off of a bottle i got some miss fires and some balls stuck in the barrel but nothing too terrible
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Why, when it is available and cheap (by world standards; you don't want to know what I pay) would anyone want to risk making their own BP? If the commercial boys can blow up a plant with best practice what makes you think your hands, eyes, etc are safe?
This is folly. Can I suggest the moderators shut this thread down before we need to start sending flowers and best wishes?
Cheers from New Zealand
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JeffinNZ I understand what you are saying completely when i was younger i was trying to make a solid rocket fuel, when i ignited and singed the side of my face, nothing major just some hair and burns like a bad tan. If someone wants to do this you can't stop them but you can help with advice to do it safer, yes buying powder is safer but so is buying your meat at the store
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Was a pyro growing up, a well trained,educated pyro. If you followed the musketeer sites instructions and methods, then you should have similar results.
I have done far more than BP in my chemistry years.
Quantity is everything. Small batch, small error, small accident.
Large batch, small error, objects removed from several parts of my body (not with BP).
Like horseradish, the finer you grind the charcoal, the closer your performance will be to factory.
No offense Jeff but, Goex blows up, as does Perchlorate facilities, due to HUGE amounts of product and an error. Small quantities (yield poor results due to multiple batches but..) are virtually insignificant. It's a deflagrant, not a high yield HE. It burns quickly, expanding some 360x. If not contained, a fire, loss of hair, vision, skin is the result. Loss of hands, arms, fingers, unlikely. Once produced, it's no more unsafe than Goex, actually safer since gas yield is (to date for jppr and most others), 1/2 what it should be. Ignition sensitivity will be much reduced due to jppr26 messing up the process (cause he's not Goex doing it for 100 years). It's safer than handling Goex or Swiss.
But Jeff, I do respect your position completely and mean no offense by the above. It will cost more to make your own than to buy so theres even a financial reason to not do it. But it's a friggen challenge beyond actually shooting or loading well. It's science and ART rolled into one but without a loading book to guide your precise process. That's awesome.
Bruce, if you smoke..... your gonna blow up. So don't smoke.
I am for your testing Bruce. I would use an open vessel for testing, volume for volume against goex or swiss.
During my development of a metal powder based deflagrant, I/We optimized it's final 4000 fps burn rate mostly visually. When it thumped supersonically in free air and the shock wave hit your face at 20 feet, that was the signature of “done". Use Empirical Measurements, your eyes and brain, as the initial performance test. It's no good unless it gets close to the sensitivity and speed of the Goex equivalent.
The true testbed is velocity obtained in a load. A BP Cart. like 45/70 would in my opinion not be a good method. A flintlock, much better. The vent can do it's job if a fizzle occurs. The 45/70 may not ignite well and has not inherent vent. Theres a few what if's with a brass case.
As the composition of BP can be calculated and has been for .... a lot of years now, the likelyhood of a higher yield than the granule has shown to produce is nill. Make it, be sure to sieve to the proper granule size, don't keep fines and dust in the mix. The FFFF and finer fines is going to give improper yield and increase your desired pressures.
The process is one of much safety. Until the mix is dry (all three fully incorporated).... there is NO ignition hazard. How many folks have tried to use damp powder... hence “keep your powder dry". The slightest bit of moisture retained will impede ignition. If it's wet-wet, it's safe to do what you need to process. Once dry, treat as Goex and store properly.
All components are ground and processed separately. Sulfur should be reagent grade or USP grade, nothing commercial. Thats medical grade or better. Pot. Nitrate should be of the same grade or you will have garbage. Pot. nitrate is usually a small round pellet. It is difficult to thoroughly grind to fines as it readily absorbs water from the air and sticks together, it's a PITA. It is INERT, even when heated. In the list of oxidizers available to those outside of the lab fields, Pot. permanganate, Pot perchloate, Pot Chlorate (Holy Crap unstable) and other more unstable nitrates, KNO3 is a joke. Sulfur, it burns by itself with great heat and lots of Ox. Without a good fuel bound to it, it's worthless. I live in refinery country. There is a 100,000 ton pile in Long Beach, Ca. It is constantly being moved about the US by open train car. The same train runs open cars of COKE, petroleum byproduct, along side the sulfur. Thats two of three components. The ignition sensitizer and the fuel. (Sulfur) It's harmless, so much so it's stored in a mountain, less than a mile from residential tracts and moved by open conveyor belt.
The moral is... make a small amount. Use a good home made charcoal from a recommended wood (willow, etc). Grind it fine (charcoal). Incorporate by hand dry with non-metallic tools, then damp in dough form. Sieve, dry in air... no heat...no containment...continue to sieve to remove unwanted granule size once dry (obtain uniformity). Test in a long gun with your face away from the nipple (sand bagged), in case it decides to burn extra slow and just spits thru the nipple for a minute. Pray the ball leaves the barrel and doesn't get stuck. Have a great time doing what humans have done for over 1000 years.
Then , lemme know how you did.
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yes buying powder is safer but so is buying your meat at the store
I would dispute that. When you buy meat at a market, you have no real idea of how it was processed and handled. It's well documented that the FDA truly has very little real oversight on what goes on in the industry. I know, without a doubt, that the game I harvest and put on my family's table is good, wholesome meat, well cared for from field to table.
As to the subject at hand, everything we do has an element of risk. It's how we manage the risk that determines the relative safety of the endeavor. Identify the risk factors. On the face of it, the primary risk is an inadvertant ignition when the BP is in a combustable state. That's where you determine how to mitigate the risk.
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Why, when it is available and cheap (by world standards; you don't want to know what I pay) would anyone want to risk making their own BP? If the commercial boys can blow up a plant with best practice what makes you think your hands, eyes, etc are safe?
This is folly. Can I suggest the moderators shut this thread down before we need to start sending flowers and best wishes?
My vote is with Jeff!
I've done some really stupid things in the area of firearms, still have scars from some, but making, modifying or mixing powder of any kind is “folly” for sure.
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See this is the beauty of our society, everyone can have an opinion and speak it freely.
Whether or not I close the thread will not deter those that want to try to do this, from doing it. That is more than obvious.
Although I can not condone the practice of attempting to manufacture ones own black powder, I do not feel that restricting conversation about the subject will stop them from doing so. Perhaps the continuing conversation will be enough to convince many that this practice is not worth the risk. At least I hope so.
Jeff
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Why, when it is available and cheap (by world standards; you don't want to know what I pay) would anyone want to risk making their own BP? If the commercial boys can blow up a plant with best practice what makes you think your hands, eyes, etc are safe?
This is folly. Can I suggest the moderators shut this thread down before we need to start sending flowers and best wishes?
My vote is with Jeff!
I've done some really stupid things in the area of firearms, still have scars from some, but making, modifying or mixing powder of any kind is “folly” for sure. You guys should know, with hindsight, that the “follies” that lead to your accidents occurred because you just didn't know what you were doing at the time. Shutting down the thread merely cuts off the flow of information and leads to people performing actions in ignorance. The free flow of information is the tool needed for the uninformed or ignorant to become knowledgeable in a subject and to make an informed decision. To many, who belong to this organization because it promotes the flow of information directly related to the sport, and in particular because we go beyond the components commercially available because of the challenge, should encourage those so inclined to experiment and expand the boundries of our knowledge, keeping in mind that the inclusion of safe work practices, recognized, established and incorporated into the process, will ensure a successful outcome.
I work in a high-risk enviroment and the folks I support, well, other folks are just flat out bound and determined to kill them. It would seem folly to put oneself in that position. We do it, voluntarily, and do it successfully time after time because we know the risks, put controls in place to mitigate the risk, and manage the remaining risk. I agree, that if you are not capable of doing that, stay away. We occasionaly wash someone out because they are unable to accurately access risk and act accordingly. That's because they put others at risk. If it's an individual, putting only themselves in harm's way, I say go for it. If you are too ignorant to perform the process safely, Darwin will make sure it's the last time you do it.
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Why, when it is available and cheap (by world standards; you don't want to know what I pay) would anyone want to risk making their own BP? If the commercial boys can blow up a plant with best practice what makes you think your hands, eyes, etc are safe?
This is folly. Can I suggest the moderators shut this thread down before we need to start sending flowers and best wishes?
My vote is with Jeff!
I've done some really stupid things in the area of firearms, still have scars from some, but making, modifying or mixing powder of any kind is “folly” for sure. If we stuck to safety all the time then nothing new would ever be invented. It's sounds as if the man is experimenting to make a product that fits a certain niche need. I think that scientific experimentation should be encouraged and fostered through good advice and references. Obviously, you are dealing with explosives, so be careful. Don't endanger yourself or anyone else and be willing to accept the consequences of catastrophic failure and have at it.
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Whew! Quite a flurry of interest! Good range of responses as well. As far as sticking to my quest for information from those who have first hand experience, it looks like I am getting about 1:5 signal to noise ratio.
Thanks again to corerf and jppr26 who have answered my request for first hand experience. Thanks Dollar Bill for the suggestion to take a look at graybeards cannon guys. I went there and got referred to amateur pyrotechnic links of fellows who are definitely into making black powder. Thanks to Jeff Bowles for not cutting off my thread - this may be America but forum moderators have a right to cut off any thread they feel like. Using this forum is a wonderful opportunity and a privilege.
I expect to light off a dab of my handiwork Saturday. I will try to get someone with fingers to post a follow-up! I think I will be most likely to be using a squib rod, but we will see! The nice thing about the Colt design is how easy it is to get access to both ends of the barrel.
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Just fyi... I have about 1200 lbs of smokin dry solid birch intended for use as charcoal production. For anyone interested, I can send priority mail box to you for a few bucks and send a tightly packed box of exceptional charcoal source material to you. Not a sales gig, I just have more than I can ever use. Think of 2x4's in solid birch, seasoned and BONE dry. Sweet!
Help me out a buy some, before I have to use it in my cityboy fireplace.
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dollar bill i mentioned that because every year i see some dumb ass when im out hunting, and wonder how some people make it past the age of 18
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