Homemade Black Powder

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  • Last Post 02 May 2010
bruce posted this 03 March 2010

Is this even an ok topic? Does anyone make their own currently, or does anyone have any first-hand experience from having made it in the past. I believe it is legal in many of the United States to make small batches for ones own shooting use. All of the ingredients are legal to buy in most places. I am reading up on the topic. I have completed my first batch but haven't fired any of it yet.

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tturner53 posted this 03 March 2010

Sure its ok. We want a report with pictures, I'm sure many members will want to see your process and results, I know I do.

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Buffalo Bill posted this 03 March 2010

If all you do is dry mix the three main ingredients (previously and SEPARATELY ground very fine) in the proper proportions you will likely be very, very disappointed with the results.  If you try to make black powder the way commercial manufacturers do, you may subject yourself to dangers that I would not personally want to experience.  I do NOT recommend it.  The real stuff made by commercial manufacturers is available, and it will be MUCH better than any home made powder for SHOOTING purposes.  And, you will not have to worry about becoming a victim of fire and/or explosion in its preparation.

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jppr26 posted this 04 March 2010

i have tried it, wasn't very rewarding other then the fact that i did it, i used it in one of those cabellas .44 navy pistols and had to double the charge then the normal to get any good performance out of it, also it fouled up alot more. my main problem was that it wasn't as volatile as the store bought, and i couldn't get it to stay in a granular form, it would always break up when you touched it, and all the secrets on how to do it are, well secret.

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bruce posted this 04 March 2010

Thanks TTurner for encouraging me to write more. Thanks for your report, jppr! After you doubled the load, how did it shoot? Did it light up each time, or did you have misfires? It is first-hand reports like yours that I am looking for.

My first batch seems to be able to stay granular pretty well - but I don't know much else about it. I live in a city and my outdoor range membership has expired. I either need to get myself invited to another range, or go visit a rural friend.

I used a small plastic ball mill (toy rock polisher - runs off of a wall wart) with some lead balls in it and actually mixed the three components with it. Afterwards I added water, made a ball that I thought was the right consistency and rubbed it on a window screen to make my granules. Bad sized ones I mushed back into a ball and ran them through the screen again.

Three things I will do differently on my next batch:

1) I made small pieces of mesquite charcoal and just put them in the mill. Some of them never disappeared, so I ended up pulling them out - thus throwing off my percentages. Just now I have run some more mesquite charcoal through a food processor, so it is very fine dust. What a mess!

2) The sulfur I got was all wrong. It is garden sulfur, but only 40% of it is free sulfur. The rest is in the form of gypsum. So I put twice the weight of this in than the formula calls for. I will find a better source of sulfur for my next batch. Imagine using drywall as filler - The original non-combustible powder - Brady Approved Non Propellant

3) I will add some water to the ball mill and let it work as a slurry. As long as it is moist it can't accidentally ignite. I'll end up adding water anyway for the screening-corning step, so why not add it early?

I did put some of this stuff in a disposable cup and burned it. It was at least not fire-proof:D,actually burned pretty darn quick, but I would guess at best it won't be any better performing than jppr26's powder, and probably worse.

I also want to try a 70% saltpeter, 30% charcoal batch. This may just be my next batch.

If a ball and this powder fills the chamber on my .44 and gives me something like a “cowboy” load, I will feel like I have somewhat of a success, since many people are adding wonderwads, cream of wheat, etc to have a full chamber.

As far as the size of this batch, I used 70 grams of saltpeter, 15 grams of charcoal and 20 grams of the garden sulfur, so you can see that this was a fairly small batch - the ball of wet stuff wasn't a great deal larger than a golf ball. I didn't want to waste a bunch of my saltpeter on a bogus experiment, nor did I want to be dealing with a big batch until I had proven out other issues, not to exclude safety

At some point I need to put a batch of this powder as mill dust in a plastic jar similar to my ball mill container and blow it up so I can get an idea of what sort of incendiary problem I would face if my mill blows up. I think that would be fine in my back yard, but I will probably do it in the 'burbs to be safe. And of course I really need to stuff some into some cartridges (.32 S&W would be a good, small test) and my brass wonder .44 and see what happens when I light it off.

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tturner53 posted this 04 March 2010

Sounds like a fun project Bruce. If you continue and can still type by all means give us a report! I'm always interested in stuff like this. That said, I don't want to encourage you to do something dangerous, you're on your own when playing mad scientist. I've had a lot of interesting ideas and projects that were not that safe or smart, they were just interesting. Do your homework if you persist, respect what you're trying to make. I think I remember a thread here about home made, maybe search this site. Last, to put things in perspective, imagine holding a common firecracker in your hand while it goes off, then maybe a M-80, or quarter stick? Be careful. By the way, Grafs and Son sells the real deal cheap and will ship it to your door. I admire the spirit of your intentions, not sure about the wisdom.:D

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JetMech posted this 04 March 2010

The typical efficiency of home-made BP is about 50% of commercial powder. I think that's because Swiss uses a 3 ton mill and Goex uses a slightly smaller one. So, given that a cartridge designed for BP can not be overloaded, in fact 100% fill is required, your velocity with home-made will be significantly lower. My 45-70 gets about 1350fps w/525gn bullet useg Goex 2F, using home-made will probably be sruggling to get 7-800 fps. Muzzle-loaders are another thing, though. A typical 50 cal uses 100gn of 2F. You could, based on testing, probably double that and get respectable velocity, but the inefficiency of home-made would leave extensive fouling. My brother and I have talked about this and he's thinking about making his own for cannons. There, he uses 1/10th the “normal", designed loads, because he's not trying to throw a Campbell's soup can filled with quick-crete 2 miles, just a couple hundred yards. You might check with the cannon builders on Greybeards forum. Those guys might have some good tips.

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raytear posted this 04 March 2010

Just a note on the charcoal for home made BP. Seems like I read somewhere that the best charcoal for BP was made from willow. And that, supposedly, is what the English used when producing some of the best BP ever made in days past.
That older English BP was supposedly very powerful and the fouling markedly reduced .

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bruce posted this 04 March 2010

Everyone will agree that good charcoal is one of the secrets. I am interested in finding where mesquite rates on the continuum. At this point I will stick with it as a constant and try to get some data together. Later, perhaps I can branch into charcoal making - which is really a hobby in itself.

Graybeard cannon builders? I'll have to give it a read. Thanks, guys, for the input.

I still think that there is room for a reduced-power powder, so that reduced loads can be made without fillers in cartridges and BP revolvers. Remember, a feature is just a bug that has made it through the marketing department!

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jppr26 posted this 04 March 2010

this is where i got the info at hope it helps, as for the power in the pistol i was using, 30gr would bounce off of a bottle i got some miss fires and some balls stuck in the barrel but nothing too terrible

http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/recipe.html>http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/recipe.html

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JeffinNZ posted this 04 March 2010

Why, when it is available and cheap (by world standards; you don't want to know what I pay) would anyone want to risk making their own BP? If the commercial boys can blow up a plant with best practice what makes you think your hands, eyes, etc are safe?

This is folly. Can I suggest the moderators shut this thread down before we need to start sending flowers and best wishes?

Cheers from New Zealand

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jppr26 posted this 05 March 2010

JeffinNZ I understand what you are saying completely when i was younger i was trying to make a solid rocket fuel, when i ignited and singed the side of my face, nothing major just some hair and burns like a bad tan. If someone wants to do this you can't stop them but you can help with advice to do it safer, yes buying powder is safer but so is buying your meat at the store

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corerf posted this 05 March 2010

Was a pyro growing up, a well trained,educated pyro. If you followed the musketeer sites instructions and methods, then you should have similar results.

I have done far more than BP in my chemistry years.

Quantity is everything. Small batch, small error, small accident.

Large batch, small error, objects removed from several parts of my body (not with BP).

Like horseradish, the finer you grind the charcoal, the closer your performance will be to factory.

No offense Jeff but, Goex blows up, as does Perchlorate facilities, due to HUGE amounts of product and an error. Small quantities (yield poor results due to multiple batches but..) are virtually insignificant. It's a deflagrant, not a high yield HE. It burns quickly, expanding some 360x. If not contained, a fire, loss of hair, vision, skin is the result. Loss of hands, arms, fingers, unlikely. Once produced, it's no more unsafe than Goex, actually safer since gas yield is (to date for jppr and most others), 1/2 what it should be. Ignition sensitivity will be much reduced due to jppr26 messing up the process (cause he's not Goex doing it for 100 years). It's safer than handling Goex or Swiss.

But Jeff, I do respect your position completely and mean no offense by the above. It will cost more to make your own than to buy so theres even a financial reason to not do it. But it's a friggen challenge beyond actually shooting or loading well. It's science and ART rolled into one but without a loading book to guide your precise process. That's awesome.

Bruce, if you smoke..... your gonna blow up. So don't smoke.

I am for your testing Bruce. I would use an open vessel for testing, volume for volume against goex or swiss.

During my development of a metal powder based deflagrant, I/We optimized it's final 4000 fps burn rate mostly visually. When it thumped supersonically in free air and the shock wave hit your face at 20 feet, that was the signature of “done". Use Empirical Measurements, your eyes and brain, as the initial performance test. It's no good unless it gets close to the sensitivity and speed of the Goex equivalent.

The true testbed is velocity obtained in a load. A BP Cart. like 45/70 would in my opinion not be a good method. A flintlock, much better. The vent can do it's job if a fizzle occurs. The 45/70 may not ignite well and has not inherent vent. Theres a few what if's with a brass case.

As the composition of BP can be calculated and has been for .... a lot of years now, the likelyhood of a higher yield than the granule has shown to produce is nill. Make it, be sure to sieve to the proper granule size, don't keep fines and dust in the mix. The FFFF and finer fines is going to give improper yield and increase your desired pressures.

The process is one of much safety. Until the mix is dry (all three fully incorporated).... there is NO ignition hazard. How many folks have tried to use damp powder... hence “keep your powder dry". The slightest bit of moisture retained will impede ignition. If it's wet-wet, it's safe to do what you need to process. Once dry, treat as Goex and store properly.

All components are ground and processed separately. Sulfur should be reagent grade or USP grade, nothing commercial. Thats medical grade or better. Pot. Nitrate should be of the same grade or you will have garbage. Pot. nitrate is usually a small round pellet. It is difficult to thoroughly grind to fines as it readily absorbs water from the air and sticks together, it's a PITA. It is INERT, even when heated. In the list of oxidizers available to those outside of the lab fields, Pot. permanganate, Pot perchloate, Pot Chlorate (Holy Crap unstable) and other more unstable nitrates, KNO3 is a joke. Sulfur, it burns by itself with great heat and lots of Ox. Without a good fuel bound to it, it's worthless. I live in refinery country. There is a 100,000 ton pile in Long Beach, Ca. It is constantly being moved about the US by open train car. The same train runs open cars of COKE, petroleum byproduct, along side the sulfur. Thats two of three components. The ignition sensitizer and the fuel. (Sulfur) It's harmless, so much so it's stored in a mountain, less than a mile from residential tracts and moved by open conveyor belt.

The moral is... make a small amount. Use a good home made charcoal from a recommended wood (willow, etc). Grind it fine (charcoal). Incorporate by hand dry with non-metallic tools, then damp in dough form. Sieve, dry in air... no heat...no containment...continue to sieve to remove unwanted granule size once dry (obtain uniformity). Test in a long gun with your face away from the nipple (sand bagged), in case it decides to burn extra slow and just spits thru the nipple for a minute. Pray the ball leaves the barrel and doesn't get stuck. Have a great time doing what humans have done for over 1000 years.

Then , lemme know how you did.

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JetMech posted this 05 March 2010

jppr26 wrote: yes buying powder is safer but so is buying your meat at the storeI would dispute that. When you buy meat at a market, you have no real idea of how it was processed and handled. It's well documented that the FDA truly has very little real oversight on what goes on in the industry. I know, without a doubt, that the game I harvest and put on my family's table is good, wholesome meat, well cared for from field to table. As to the subject at hand, everything we do has an element of risk. It's how we manage the risk that determines the relative safety of the endeavor. Identify the risk factors. On the face of it, the primary risk is an inadvertant ignition when the BP is in a combustable state. That's where you determine how to mitigate the risk. corerf has done a great job of explaining the process and how to mitigate the risk.

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Fred Sinclair posted this 05 March 2010

JeffinNZ wrote: Why, when it is available and cheap (by world standards; you don't want to know what I pay) would anyone want to risk making their own BP? If the commercial boys can blow up a plant with best practice what makes you think your hands, eyes, etc are safe?

This is folly. Can I suggest the moderators shut this thread down before we need to start sending flowers and best wishes?

My vote is with Jeff!

I've done some really stupid things in the area of firearms, still have scars from some, but making, modifying or mixing powder of any kind is “folly” for sure.

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CB posted this 05 March 2010

See this is the beauty of our society, everyone can have an opinion and speak it freely.

Whether or not I close the thread will not deter those that want to try to do this, from doing it. That is more than obvious.

Although I can not condone the practice of attempting to manufacture ones own black powder, I do not feel that restricting conversation about the subject will stop them from doing so. Perhaps the continuing conversation will be enough to convince many that this practice is not worth the risk. At least I hope so.

Jeff

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JetMech posted this 05 March 2010

Fred Sinclair wrote: JeffinNZ wrote: Why, when it is available and cheap (by world standards; you don't want to know what I pay) would anyone want to risk making their own BP? If the commercial boys can blow up a plant with best practice what makes you think your hands, eyes, etc are safe?

This is folly. Can I suggest the moderators shut this thread down before we need to start sending flowers and best wishes?

My vote is with Jeff!

I've done some really stupid things in the area of firearms, still have scars from some, but making, modifying or mixing powder of any kind is “folly” for sure. You guys should know, with hindsight, that the “follies” that lead to your accidents occurred because you just didn't know what you were doing at the time. Shutting down the thread merely cuts off the flow of information and leads to people performing actions in ignorance. The free flow of information is the tool needed for the uninformed or ignorant to become knowledgeable in a subject and to make an informed decision. To many, who belong to this organization because it promotes the flow of information directly related to the sport, and in particular because we go beyond the components commercially available because of the challenge, should encourage those so inclined to experiment and expand the boundries of our knowledge, keeping in mind that the inclusion of safe work practices, recognized, established and incorporated into the process, will ensure a successful outcome.

I work in a high-risk enviroment and the folks I support, well, other folks are just flat out bound and determined to kill them. It would seem folly to put oneself in that position. We do it, voluntarily, and do it successfully time after time because we know the risks, put controls in place to mitigate the risk, and manage the remaining risk. I agree, that if you are not capable of doing that, stay away. We occasionaly wash someone out because they are unable to accurately access risk and act accordingly. That's because they put others at risk. If it's an individual, putting only themselves in harm's way, I say go for it. If you are too ignorant to perform the process safely, Darwin will make sure it's the last time you do it.

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amb1935 posted this 05 March 2010

Fred Sinclair wrote: JeffinNZ wrote: Why, when it is available and cheap (by world standards; you don't want to know what I pay) would anyone want to risk making their own BP? If the commercial boys can blow up a plant with best practice what makes you think your hands, eyes, etc are safe?

This is folly. Can I suggest the moderators shut this thread down before we need to start sending flowers and best wishes?

My vote is with Jeff!

I've done some really stupid things in the area of firearms, still have scars from some, but making, modifying or mixing powder of any kind is “folly” for sure. If we stuck to safety all the time then nothing new would ever be invented. It's sounds as if the man is experimenting to make a product that fits a certain niche need. I think that scientific experimentation should be encouraged and fostered through good advice and references. Obviously, you are dealing with explosives, so be careful. Don't endanger yourself or anyone else and be willing to accept the consequences of catastrophic failure and have at it.

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bruce posted this 05 March 2010

Whew! Quite a flurry of interest! Good range of responses as well. As far as sticking to my quest for information from those who have first hand experience, it looks like I am getting about 1:5 signal to noise ratio.

Thanks again to corerf and jppr26 who have answered my request for first hand experience. Thanks Dollar Bill for the suggestion to take a look at graybeards cannon guys. I went there and got referred to amateur pyrotechnic links of fellows who are definitely into making black powder. Thanks to Jeff Bowles for not cutting off my thread - this may be America but forum moderators have a right to cut off any thread they feel like. Using this forum is a wonderful opportunity and a privilege.

I expect to light off a dab of my handiwork Saturday. I will try to get someone with fingers to post a follow-up! I think I will be most likely to be using a squib rod, but we will see! The nice thing about the Colt design is how easy it is to get access to both ends of the barrel.

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corerf posted this 05 March 2010

Just fyi... I have about 1200 lbs of smokin dry solid birch intended for use as charcoal production. For anyone interested, I can send priority mail box to you for a few bucks and send a tightly packed box of exceptional charcoal source material to you. Not a sales gig, I just have more than I can ever use. Think of 2x4's in solid birch, seasoned and BONE dry. Sweet!

Help me out a buy some, before I have to use it in my cityboy fireplace.

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jppr26 posted this 05 March 2010

dollar bill i mentioned that because every year i see some dumb ass when im out hunting, and wonder how some people make it past the age of 18

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tturner53 posted this 05 March 2010

Can't pass that up, I'll take a sample. Let's just say I'm curious. Coref, I'll send you a pm.

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bruce posted this 06 March 2010

I fired two .32 S&W cases and two .32 S&W Long cases for my first test of my new “wonder powder". I fired the l'il shorty first, and was pleased to see a hole appear on target. I opened it up and looked down the barrel, which was empty. Encouraged by my good luck, I put in a Long and fired. No hole in target. Squib rod necessary.

I repeated this one more time, being sure in both cases to have plenty of powder in the case. Still, shorty flings a bullet out just fine, Long yields a bullet stuck in barrel.

I have a hunch that any powder, even corn meal, would have given the short enough pressure with the primer to pop a bullet out of the barrel, but the powder in the Long case absorbed too much pressure? Interestingly, the short case put out some pretty decent smoke, too.

So, looking at what I've done so far, I'm using mesquite charcoal that at best may be only 50% as good as willow. My sulfur was funky garden sulfur. Who knows what other problems that it has.

I guess I should fire another short case and just try it with a primer and cornmeal and see what that does, but I'm sort of squibbed out on the little break-top and I've already cleaned it.

Anybody ever shoot a 3 1/2” barrel H&R .32 S&W Long break-top without any powder using a short case? By the way, I was using some 73 grain ACP-style jacketed bullets.

Well, I don't think I will bother putting any of this in the '51 Colt.

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bruce posted this 06 March 2010

Corerf - Is birch a desirable charcoal for BP?

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corerf posted this 06 March 2010

bruce, here is a link with the performance curves of various wood types. Willow is the preferred, used by Goex and Swiss. But the authors very invasive study shows that even with Willow, Goex plain sucks for energy yield compared to other woods but that is due to manufacturing and NOT the wood. So as I have read in other places, neither hard or soft woods have a general performance character. Both soft and hard are both valued (pending type of wood) for BP both pyro propellant and as gunpowder.

Yep, birch is GOOD. I am getting ready to stoke a fire int eh fireplace for making charcoal. My cookie tin is ready! Oh yeah, birch is friggen heavy and dense. It should have good yield compared to much less dense woods per lb.

Link

http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/charcoal.html

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codarnall posted this 07 March 2010

I absolutely concur. Done properly, wet and dried out and then ground is dangerous, done with with one of Obama's boys or a robot may be fine.

Charlie

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bruce posted this 07 March 2010

Things I have recently read on charcoal:

Willow is #1, fireworks boys also like balsa, which is expensive and very light. Some say Goex is made of maple, which some have rated as 80% as good as willow.

I have also read that radiata pine (yellow pine grown in South America) is pretty good, and of course cheap. Interior door jambs made of radiata pine are perhaps the most common in homes built over the past fifteen years (this is an observation I have made from my day job) so the world should never be totally out of the stuff.

As the link Corerf added points out, just how long and how hot the wood is heated has a lot to do with how good the charcoal will turn out.

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corerf posted this 14 March 2010

Testing data for March 14, 2010

Manufactured 1/3 lb birch based BP using the precipitation method. Used NON-usp or tech grade KNO3, USP grade Sulfur, home made charcoal from well dried birch in retort.

All components ball milled separately, I can't safely ball mill combined here in the city and provide enough buffer for the safety of everyone.

Sieved thru 4 layers (non measured varying mesh (to be accurized with 20/40/100 mesh next week).

Attempted to build compression die for powder, tested with a 6 ton press, non-combustible charcoal dampened. Unfortunately the press broke the piston at 4 ton and I had not added sufficiently incorporated water/alcohol to cause fusion of powder. So I broke the piston and was left several times with dust. I will revisit the piston after fabricating another die and will use fresh, complete precipitation method product for die testing. Die volume reduced to 1.5 oz for reduction of “size” of blast hazard during ram stroke.

Anyway, I corned the fresh product and sun dried today. Used the multiple sieves to fraction.

Weighed Pyrodex P and RS as a standard in a 1cc Lee dipper both in grams and grains. Metered and weighed three fractions, I will call coarse, med and fine in 1cc and also on scale.

Results of finished product:

Pyrodex P= .77 grams= 11.88 grains (measure error = 2%) Pyrodex RS= .67 grams= 10.34 grains (measure error 16%)

Fine BP = .49 grams= 7.56 grains a mix of end dust and sieved passage

Med BP = .63 grams= 9.72 grains critical sorted

Coarse BP = .60 grams= 9.26 grains critical sorted

Pyrodex used as reference of dipper accuracy and granulation accuracy.

Visual speed test:

Pyrodex P as base:

RS, noticeably slower.

Pyrodex VERY CLEAN.

Fine (includes dust and fines as well as corned grains, smaller than Pyrodex P by a small margin with dust and fines)----as fast as Pyro P but dirty.

Med- As fast as Pyrodex RS, but dirty

Coarse- Noticeably slower than Pyrodex RS, and very dirty.

All burns done on cold block with smokeless path as fuse. Only 1cc increments tested.

Granulation differences with BP and Pyrodex:

Pyro P to Fine BP: pyro P has highly varied granules, BP (if dust is removed by fractioning in the future) same granule variable and size.

Pyro P to Med BP: BP granules MORE CONSISTENT in size with much less variable, but 30% larger or roughly equal to the dominant granule found in Pyro RS.

Pyro RS to Med BP: Pyro RS far more varied in granule size, BP was equal to the large dominant Pyro RS granule.

Pyro RS to Corase BP: BP 50-60% larger granule, less varied than Pyro RS in granule size.

Pyrodex vs BP texture and granule strength:

Pyrodex WILL NOT crush in your fingers when touched. Corned and UNCOMPRESSED BP will under several grams of force, break down easily to finer grains. BP definitely stronger once fully dried and will NOT break down easily under rolling force, granule collisions in sieve or in container.

Thats it for today. I am pooped. The pyro guys that are in the guild, all use ball mills out from their homes on larger parcels of property. If one did pop, neighbors would not care. But in the city, once must not make loud noises inadvertently or the project SHALL come to a screeching, permanent halt.

For the next volley of testing, I will be using traditional mortar and pestle to blend components in small quantity, wetting with 50/50 water/alcohol and corning with same methods used above.

Additionally, this precipitation batch should be compressed to 1.7gms/cc density with a new die (I have enough coarse to create at least one fraction of dense material from this batch) .

All varied outputs will be preserved in a few CC quantity for chronograph testing and for checking fouling output. (that is shooting with the stuff!!)

I will also procure some Goex FF and FFF powder and compare similarly as above.

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codarnall posted this 16 March 2010

My understanding is that Pyrodex mentioned so often contains potassium perchlorate unlike BP which is really nasty hydroscopic stuff and I have always stayed away from it for that reason. Doesn't smell right either. Charlie

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corerf posted this 16 March 2010

I dunno but perchlorate content would NOT lead to less ignition sensitivity which Pyrodex has. It would provide the reverse effect.

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JetMech posted this 16 March 2010

codarnall wrote:  BP which is really nasty hydroscopic stuff Actually, the only black powder that is hygroscopic is blasting powder made with sodium nitrate. BP made for propellants use potassium nitrate, can be stored for years, if not decades and works just fine. The fouling left in hygroscopic and corrosive so should be removed as soon as practical but is very easy to remove with hot water.

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corerf posted this 16 March 2010

Bill, I think Charlie was implying that unlike BP, Pyrodex had the KClO4 in it which was hydroscopic. I concur that BP has long legs and will keep for a long time without atmospheric water intrusion.

Sodium “anysalt", you fill in the appropriate suffix, sucks up water like a sponge! Good oxidizer though.

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JetMech posted this 17 March 2010

My apologies, Charlie. It's my understanding that Pyrodex was developed as an alternative to BP that wasn't explosive, but I guess it still has the residual salts that cause corrosion.

As a sidebar, last year, Goex was trying to get BP reclassified from a class 1.3 explosive to a different catagory to reduce shipping costs. They were unsuccessful.

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corerf posted this 04 April 2010

Goldangit, I hit the jackpot. I adjusted my previous composition to the std 75/15/10, using a low temp charcoal from the birch I used previous. The color of charocal is more choclate brown than pitch black due to less decomp during retort. I understood that more volatiles are present and this generates more powerful BP. So what the heck, nothing like adding LAYERS of changes so that theres no way of knowing what change did what....

Anyway, I have ball milled under ground for four hours tonight. Each component was milled for 5 hours with steel media to reduce. Then the green meal was added to a fresh ball mill with 40 brass .5 inch balls. No moisture added. So I found that in my barrel, 40 balls wasn't enough to be proper. So I broke down and added 95 more .495 diameter speer lead balls. I figured that since the first 40 brass balls cost $33, I need to wait for more $$ to get more brass media. (I mentioned previous I think how I DONT want lead trace in teh powder smoke. So.... I tested some of the 3 hour old mill dust.

Shoot, it's as fast as Goex all day long. It has NOT HAD WATER added yet, which will build speed and clean a bit more than now. The powder burns as clean as Goex so far (in free air). Is plenty sensitive (more sensitive than previous batches and faster to boot).

So tomorrow night I will sieve it tomorrow damp and corn it. I may just try to hold off with moisture until I can get the hydraulic press reassembled to compress to 1.5g/cc or better. My pistons are built with compression die, just need to build the hydraulic frame. I tried the Harbor freight affordable presses but they have limited openings and so my cylinder is too tall to work correctly. I don't have free $$ to invest in a larger unit so I have to make a frame with 4x6 timber and 5/8 threaded rod with 2 ton hydraulic jack.

I made huge progress. The other testers on many sites have stated the difference between CIA, m&P and BALL MILLED powders is like black and white. It sure is. Success was so easy. I can guarantee at least equal velocities with this powder with equal or less fouling than Goex at this point. I believe that linear speed testing will show after high compression, corning and polishing in mill barrel, it will run faster that Goex, similar fouling or better with denser charges and more energy. I dont' think Goex is necessarily the “mark” to strive for. Lots of folks have indicated tremendous performance improvements over factory and thats what I aim to achieve.

I am very happy tonight!

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corerf posted this 06 April 2010

Even greater success tonight with compression dies. I got 2.5grams/cc density with my hydraulic press. I was able on the first puck to get 9.9 grams (152 grains) into a 2.055 diameter x .275 tall puck.

My press is some scrap 5/8 all thread, some nuts and washers, and a scrap 4x6 cut in half to make two 2 foot long beams. The beams are standing at the ends of the all thread giving me a 24 inch opeing between a footer and header. Then I borrowed my dads 20 ton junker bottle jack, two small 1/2 inch steel plates for load spreaders to keep pistons from breaking. Extend the jack between the header and footer, compress, dwell for 2 minutes while I leave the area. Release and fight like hell to get the puck out!

Second compression, pushed maybe a bit more with a larger load (31 grams) and it finished at about the same height (but had problems with the pistons sticking so bad the puck broke getting it out). I believe the second puck would have been at 3.1 grams per cc. Thats 48 grains per cc. Thats a walker 47 max load in a lee 1cc dipper!!

Anyway, once I have dried, corned and sieved it to FFFg granulation, I shall do a weight check vs volume to see where I land compared to Goex (15.4 grains per cc) I will NOT have polished the granules so the stack within a volumetric measure may be not as compact as Goex but my density may be higher so actual load weight may balance out.

I will also put it head to head on a 12 inch burn run with a video camera recording burns of Goex 3F and my 3F. I'll use the time code as a clock reference. I thought of building a flip-flop driver with NC trigger to drive a stopwatch but thats too much wasted time. The video camera will be sufficient to get me data.

I need to loosen the piston up and provide a smoother cylinder and piston. The BP goes hydraulic in teh cylinder and a bit of moisture oozes out of the gaps. Then the BP dries making a wedge sticking the pistons in the cylinders.

Either I will have to make better pistons and cylinders ot I will have to make a sleeve that is tough but it's ID is slightly or significantly larger than the piston OD. The I can stack the finished assembly on top of the new sleeve, and push the whole tamale thru and the puck will drop into the new large ID sleeve.

I'll post pix of pucks and finished product once I have finished testing. It's worth a look.

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Reverend Recoil posted this 13 April 2010

I remember reading in the American Rifleman that the Confederates built a powder mill in Alabama that made better black powder than DuPont. This powder produced less smoke and fouling. Their charcoal was made from cottonwood. After the war, DuPont used their political connections and had the mill destroyed. If you want cottonwood charcoal you will have to make your own. Good luck and be careful. As carefull and knowledgeable as the DuPonts and Nobels were they each lost several family members and numerous employees. Beware of static electrical charges especially on days of low humidity.

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corerf posted this 14 April 2010

I have made significant speed progress. Yes Reverend, cottonwood is in the same family as willow and it's usually regarded as top dog in charcoal.

Also Reverend, just about every pyro in the US can make better cleaner, more efficient powder than Goex (formerly DuPont). Theres a 15 yr old kid doing it on youtube and he is very good with his compostion. It's just me thats struggling, but its how one learns the WAY. If it was so easy anyone could do it perfect, then I would have no challenge and thats not stimulating! Thats my goal, do it better than Goex and Swiss BOTH!

I have been using birch, but my mill needed some changes. So I increased the barrel speed to cause more hammer and less roll effect. I have increased milling times to 12 hours or more. It has gotten my mill dust to 1.6 ft/s burn. That not fast enough but I found that my test trough was charged will too little powder to propagate. I tested a batch that has had 5 days drying time, unpressed but damp corned. I 2.75ft/s. Thats fastest I have made yet. The target is about 3.5ft/s in final pressed and corned. But the Mill is what I believe is holding me up. The birch is hard and harder than willow, etc. So I got ticked off and charred some really old white pine. Thats what gave 1.5ft/s in mill dust. Mill dust is about 60% slower than the corned product. So my hopes are that 1.5 s will turn into .75 or faster when it's dried with a goodload in the trough.

I am running tonight a batch of unknown soft wood. White cedar or some kinda stuff. It charred nice, low tar content. I will mill it until noon tomorrow and test tomorrow night for burn rate out of the mill.

Lastly I need to build a GOOD mill. Mine is so inefficient that I could cry. I need a 6 inch barrel that is narrow at about 110 rpm with an 1/8 hp to turn it. Put 10lbs media in it and a 1/2 lb charge and in three hours I should have my cake and be eating it. But until then, I will have to WAIT for the slow, crappy mill to run.

An ultrasonic test lab friend gave me a nice test billet of alum. for turning down as a compression piston (or two or three!) I need to go to the scrap yard to find a 2 inch alum tube with 1/4 inch walls. My press should make about 3Gms/cc density every stroke and the piston wont get stuck to to huge tolerances.

So it goes. Work is picking up for a few days so my stress level over economics may let up and allow me to spend a few bucks on the project. But so far, if it's not free, I can't do it right now.

Friggen Obamafornia. (sorry not appropriate for the thread, disregard)

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corerf posted this 15 April 2010

WOW. Tonight was a good test.

0.78 seconds for 2.5 feet with dust. Some kind of unknown soft wood (cedar) and 18 hours mill time with more rpm (more hammer effect). Corned it tonight, will try a burn on Saturday morn when fully dried. Hopefully it will go FASTER. Last mill dust prior to corn was over 2 seconds. Now after poor milling session (low rpm and 5 hours) and corned it is at 1.6 seconds. Thats a .4 sec improvement. If the ratio holds up, 20% speed increase after corning should net me .625 sec for full burn on this newest batch. Thats as fast or FASTER than Goex. Not sure where I stand with fouling though. When it's under pressure it's fouling artifacts will be different than when in free air.

On that note went back to birch for 100 gms load for 18-24 hour mill time at higher rpm level. This should rule out wood. It will be done at 8 PM PST tomorrow and I can speed test the dust to compare to tonights result with a “lesser” wood.

I think I might get to shoot some next Wednesday and chrono against Goex. Since this is the cast bullet forum, that was the whole point. To cast Pure lead ball and get it done all homebrew in Hawkens. My next report will only come if I get to shoot the stuff, then compare patched ball with Goex against my homebrew.

I can't just go to the range here and go shoot cast. It's 2 hours in any direction to pull the trigger ONCE>. I have already done all the casting and loading that I can without a range trip so I am in a rut. The only activity I have firearm related is BP testing. And that is it!

Sucks to live in So Cal. Soon..... that may change.

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Reverend Recoil posted this 23 April 2010

Corerf, are you still alive? I hope so.

Search the web for rock tumbler plans. There are several that tumble rocks using rotating truck tires.

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corerf posted this 23 April 2010

Reverend, I am well and have finished the race very well. I have replicated Goex, except for fouling testing which should be done as soon as I can shoot.

Burn rate testing: Average .1 seconds faster over Goex, granule for granule. On par with SWISS performance at FF and FFF grades, superior to Elephant on ANY DAY.

Tested FFF and FF cornings of my powder against Goex. Goex runs .7 sec at 2 foot, mine at .6 secs.

Energy output is similar.

Charge density: Goex (14.9-15.3g/cc) Mine- (11.8-12.4g/cc)

I believe due to superior milling over Goex factory, I will produce higher velocities with equivalent volumetric charges even though the mass will be less using my powder.

So less powder and more velocity, higher efficiency....... that is the point of doing this.

My granulation method is far more consistent than Goex, my granules are sized more uniformly while unpolished. I will move to polishing (and glazing) as soon as I prove a few other points or performance.

Surprisingly, most BP makers will agree that it is easy to extract more efficiency from homebrew than Goex or Swiss could ever produce, gram for gram. But it's not about speed. I have to keep the speed WAY low through production process so that I don't exceed the “standard” that the industry has designed all arms to work around. I have a limited window to work inside but yet increase performance.

So my chrono will dictate the performance I have achieved. But my testing so far says I am going to kick Goex butt for both fouling and energy.

Reverend: I have just last night, completed a new mill with a dedicated motor, running an 8 inch diameter barrel x 12 inch long. It will put out, if it can hold the full load without overheating the motor, 1.5 lbs charge with 8 lbs media, finished product in 3 hours or less, less by force... due to my linear burn rate limitations for sporting use powder. Essentially if my FF burns like FFFF, then bad thing will happen. So I have to control the milling process very critically.

The corning after pressing is the hardest, most time consuming process. I have designed (not built) a single stroke cam operated crusher, non-sparking, that will minimize the loss of useable product from re-powdering during corning. Under normal corning, I loose 50% to dust and have yet to recompose a puck with the secondary dust for testing. The waste if not usable and consistent after the second pressing, will kill the process. Either the secondary pressing will burn same rate or it will slow down, slowing is not acceptable. So something has to happen to improve the yield during the corning process. The crusher is a NO impact device that will smoothly break a puck, repeatedly while minimizing the granules that can be reduced to fines (unusable fines). Also I can't sieve and fraction FFFF yet so anything below FFF and a large, consistent FFF (Unlike Goex which is all over the place) goes to scrap.

Goex makes blasting powder, etc so any non-sporting waste dust can be reconstituted to other forms and used 100%. I can't do that. I can't use finer than FFFF and thats pretty small, but NOT DUST. And How much FFFF can one use in a year?? So there has to be a fix for the loss during crushing.

Yes I am alive, and very happy with what I have created. I expect excellence from the product>

For giggles, if you shot competitively and could buy higher performance BP than SWISS (the best made) at $2 per can less, direct from mfgr, from a USA mfgr, would you do it??

Or would you just stick with nasty Goex, the standard crud that has been unchanged for 150 years??

You could buy American, from a boutique mfgr, cheaper, direct, with the confidence that each can from each lot would be consistent, more consistent than Goex, as consistent as Swiss, but $2 cheaper and direct CUTTING the powder distributors out of the picture?? A company who ONLY MADE SPORTING GRADE BP for the Shooting Sports??

Would you buy it?? I open the question to everyone. To compete you must use commercial powder available to ALL shooters so this boutique company would be a sanctioned provider.

Think about it!

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Reverend Recoil posted this 02 May 2010

I am sure there is a market for every superior product including black powder. You will have to do some extensive marketing research to determine what the market will bear for your product. Your overhead may cost as much or more than production costs, especialy with hired employees. Have you priced liabilty and fire insurance? Insurance underwrighters set the standards for fire protection in all industries.

I wonder who underwrights PB's offshore rigs. Whoever they are, they will be paying out some big bucks. Good luck.

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corerf posted this 02 May 2010

Here's the field data!!

I have fired my powder in two arms, a 50 cal TC hawken and an 1860 colt army.

Goex on FFg 50 cal, 490 RB, pillow ticking and my homebrew lube: 1240 fps at 60 gr volume.

My FF, unpolished and unglazed, same gun, same load: Shot 1: 1174 Shot 2: 1166 Shot 3: 1211 (patch was cut perfect on each of the following shots, whereas the previous patches were in my opinion very improper, and I settled the powder for 4 seconds then topped off) Shot 4: 1200 Shot 5: 1185 Shot 6: 1228 (this shot the powder was settled slightly in measure and then topped off... this for SURE attributed to the increase in velocity)

Returned to Goex for a second round of velocity verification. Shots were settled in similar fashion to my loads above to make testing “even steven". As you will see, Goex velocities went up like mine did with settling. I'm still significantly low, but acceptably low and with charge increase, I can get same performance (but wait for the target pix and that will not be necessary!)

Shot 1: 1323 Shot 2: 1315

So I have concluded that my density at 1.4-1.6 grams/cc is significantly lower than Goex 2.0-2.4G/cc, they are going to CONTINUE to be approx 100 fps faster than my CURRENT powder, volume for volume.

Stacking factor data:

Goex settles max of 1/8 inch. My powder stacks more poorly and settles 3/16 inch average, maybe a taste more or less at times. In the gun, my ramrod drops the same 3/16 further (deeper) than with Goex of equivalent charge. So I am able to settle by virtue of the ball seating my powder more than Goex.

I will attempt to fix this by a polishing process that will allow tighter natural stacking. I have to create that process so it may be a long time coming!

Fouling: Goex, being “dirty” is REAL CLEAN compared to my powder. I will post pictures of patches between shots. Birch pure seems to be WAY DIRTY by itself but makes good power and speed by the data above. I will alter the wood using known cleaner burning woods and increase density which should improve the burn. Also I short retorted the last batch as an experiment. I will try longer retort times for more complete reduction to see if the new charcoal will burn cleaner. I think it will. There were a lot of volatiles remaining in this last batch.

Accuracy:

My unbiased shooting in Yucca Valley, CA yesterday showed a clear advantage to my powder. No load development was used which is VERY UNFAIR to firearms, powders, etc. But a typical response to queries RE: accuracy loads for a TC 50 hawken with RB, 60 gr is ALWAYS the target shooters ticket!

I shot 50 yards due to 25 mph winds that were not predictable. I had much NON shooting time due to gusts that hung for 4-5 minutes before tapering off. So Goex sucks for accuracy and my powder is exceedingly accurate! Yep..... I am boasting!

Pictures posted below. After sighting shots of approx 10 for chrono testing and zeroing (first time behind this rifle, but rifle is seasoned by prior owner), I shot two groups with same focus and intent.

My nephew has not ever seen a 1/4 inch group, but he's not a shooter. Goex turned in a 2 inch best performance after I did my best patch cutting, standardized best practices for loading, etc. I was as consistent as humanly possible. I could with absolute certainty, predict a bad shot due to patch cut and ball seating. After several shots, I got it worked out completely. My lube was 60 beeswax/40 crisco with 2 tbsp of canola oil (like a four or 6 ounce batch) soaked to absorbtion with heat and wrung out  (pillow ticking approx 15 thou thick)

The score:

Goex 2 inch

Mikes FF 1/4 inch.

Each groups was a 4 shot string. I have one bad patch and new it, it was high and left by 2x2 inch. The other 3 consecutive shots went into .25 inch. Yes, .25 inch, with open factory sights and no wind correction.

Holy Batcrap Robin!

I also tested with less intent, the FFF I made from same batch of powder in the 1860 revolver.

Again chrono data: Goex shot 1/2: 682/663 Mikes FFF shot 1/2: 660.2/660.4

I think that the data speaks for itself. Also I found that the level of fouling with the FFF was less than my FF, by a large margin. Dunno enough about how BP burns in a barrel but Goex and Mikes made a standardized mess in 48 rounds thru gun with NO CLEANING. Gun still fired accurately, cylinder still rotated properly, hammer fell cleanly, but my hand was a mess from lube, BP, yuck!

Accuracy results

Procedure: two hand hold, 35 feet, 1/2 diameter target dot, 20 grains volume Goex or Mikes FFF, oxyoke felt wad with dry lube, 454 RB, nice shaving each load, #11 CCI cap, TC bore butter topper half topped off.

Goex 1.5 inch for 5 shots and could have been tighter, as tight as 1 inch but there were vertical stings present that did NOT get attributed to anything but powder performance.

Mikes FFF, two windblown groups ( I shot with wind without any caution). 4 shots total, first two printed in .25 inch, second two printed 1.2 inch left (NO WIND CONDITION), .25 inch group, both groups show minor vertical stack with no windage error.

I can't do better than that with the gun. And I was NOT working hard to shoot that way. The Pietta simply shot well when aimed with either powder.

So I will post pics later tonight of patches, targets and powder.

I will be ordering lab screens to enhance my fractioning of the FFF to include finer grains than I can currently sort, to make more equivalent to Goex, the composition of largest to smallest grains. Or I may fraction for more consistency than Goex with a higher reject rate if when done, it enhances velocity error reduction.

But how much more consistent can my powder be. Error for two shots was only 2 tenths of an FPS???????

I need to polish the FFF to get the stacking factor equal to Goex so that my velocity comes up to Goex speeds. I am a taste low but not by much.

Next trip at the end of May, I will try FFF in the rifle for a few shots since FF vs. FFF may give more velocity in 50 cal with a better stack factor. I must also cast some RB and shoot homebrew CB's with it to make it RIGHT/RIGHT.

Also I will need to return to the wild the 2.5 foot Desert Rosey Boa that we caught on a walk to the target. I have had good success with finding temporary pets on shoots, two tarantulas in September last year (returned a month later) and now the Boa. Very pretty snake and as docile as an earthworm! My 8 year old is in hog heaven holding it.

Reverend: It will cost a few bucks to roll commercial powder once/If I get the blend improved. My electrical contracting company has higher fees in overhead here in California than Goex pays in Louisiana and I can guarantee that. So ANY redcution in overhead from what I currently pay for ANY business is a welcomed sight.

Goex target ( 2 of 3 shots, the thrid is lost  on the paper somewhere within 5 inches of this group.... what a mess of a group, although goex did group better at times during sighting, just this was a “GROUP” for grouping, not chrono tests

Mikes FFF

My powder (photo is not going to resolve well due to compression) FF on left, FFF on right

Family employees make for a low overhead, and I have family that would gladly leave the LA ratrace to earn a reduced income slower life on an Idaho farm making a product. We shall see... if I can't get it to clean up and can't get the mass/cc up to snuff, then business ends right then and there.

But that's not to say that I won't kick butt all over paper targets and game with my stuff. I am ok with ending at personal consumption, but I am an entrepreneur by DNA and I can't help but find a financial benefit in the prospect.

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bruce posted this 02 May 2010

Mike,

Cool stuff!

Bruce

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