Best rifle for Military matches?

  • 11K Views
  • Last Post 01 February 2010
Vassal posted this 10 July 2009

Hello, I have been shooting and reloading and casting for a few months now---I Love It! As I am going to be purchasing a new rifle and corrolary equipment in a few weeks, and I hope to practice, join CBA and then take part in matches (postal first then maybe a trip to Illinois) I want to know what you think the best rifles for this purpose are. I really want to research this buy and get something great instead of what happens to be on the shelf in front of me (which is usually great also but,,,) I am not rich, and by “all considered” i mean to include availibility of rifles, parts and brass, selection of bullets and molds, PRICE, et cetera. Thanks guys.

                                                                                    Vassal-of-One

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
Ed Harris posted this 10 July 2009

For military issue class, IMHO the 03A3 Springfield has the best sights, useable trigger, shoots well and uses common brass and bullets. Hard to beat. The Swiss K-31 is common and affordable, but better for somebody under age 40 with good eyesight.

For my money look for a nice condition original Remington 03A3 with 2-groove barrel and perfect bore. Pay what you must to get a good one. Try any 150-200 grain bullet that fits, cast of wheelweights+ 2% tin and 15 grs. of #2400. If you want to get serious, have Veral Smith cut a mould to fit your rifle. My two cents.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

BruceV posted this 10 July 2009

There are many good military surplus rifles available. Given how they are designed, etc., some are more easily used for cast bullet military rifle matches.

I prefer to use either a 1903 or a 1903-A3 for military rifle shooting using either jacketed or cast bullets. I have had sterling results with my 03 using cast bullets. In both of my 03-A3 rifles, results are equally good. I simply prefer to use my 03.

Good shooter grade 03 and 03-A3 rifles are available. With a decent load and some basic attention to the details of position, etc., one of these rifles can produce shockingly good results on target. In fact, I've used my Smith-Corona 03-A3 to not only win on the rifle range, I've used it with hunting ammunition to make nice one-shot kills on deer. I like the fact that with it, skills learned on the range transfer to the woods and fields when hunting.

Get yourself a good 1907 sling for your rifle. Learn to use the sling with your rifle. Load plenty of ammunition and practice the positions. You will be pleased at your results. Sincerely. Bruce.

Attached Files

JetMech posted this 10 July 2009

Vassal,

Ed and Bruce's advice is right on the money. Order some back issues of the Fouling Shot, and you'll find most of the folks are shooting 1903A3s for the Military, Issue Sight class. Much better sight picture than the 1903's, IMHO. I have one of each, the A3 getting a NOS 2 groove HS barrel and the 1903 getting a slightly used 1944 4 groove barrel (they're at the gunsmith as we speak). The 1903 was already drilled for the Lyman sight, so I'll use it in the Modified Sight class. As Ed pointed out, a Remington is a good buy and I'd advise you to shop the Milsurp website. Those guys know their stuff and will sell a great shooter that's not collector grade for a decent price. Gunbrokers, AuctionArms, and GunsAmerica, most of those sellers claim everything they have is  "all original", “collector grade", “one of a kind", etc. Those guys from Milsupr (Jouster.com) can spot a replacement part from an original just from the pictures.

Shoot, someone here may have one to sell. Jeff Bowles had a good shooter for $500 awhile back, I believe.

Attached Files

big boar posted this 10 July 2009

Mr Harris, a bit off topic but you mentioned WW + 2% tin. WW are getting scarce around here, if I use pure Pb and about 4% tin, can I heat treat to get the hardness to about 15BHN? Sorry if this is off topic but you're here right now and you mentioned a load for that alloy. Many thanks Brian.

Attached Files

KenK posted this 11 July 2009

I'm no Ed Harris but the tin is not what makes bullet alloys heat treat, it is the antimony.

rotometals has some 30% antimony alloy you could use, it is a lot cheaper than tin.

Edit: I think arsenic is important to heat treating also.  You can get that from shot.  There are several articles on the LASC site about it.  I don't  fool with it myself.

 

I really like the Springfield  too but some fellers here shoot nice groups with those odd Swedish rifles.:D

Attached Files

CB posted this 11 July 2009

Another vote for the 03A3.. Any good bore will shoot well, the bullet fit is the critical aspect of the accuracy you will ring out of it.

Ken - there are other options for making metal that can be heat treated. I remember something about a thread here where you can use sulfur to realign the molecules in the metal so it can be heat treated.

Havent the slightest what thread that was, but I will see if I can find it. Should be cheaper than antimony if economy is a driving force.

Attached Files

Vassal posted this 11 July 2009

Thanks for all the great input. I have never seen an 03A3 in a shop, but I will definitely be looking. I guess what it really boils down to is what can I find with a good bore.

 

Attached Files

CB posted this 11 July 2009

A decent 03 or 03-A3 is going to set you back a fair amount of change. Get a K-31 set it up for scoped class if you can't see the sights and have at it.

Attached Files

Vassal posted this 12 July 2009

I have not done a great amount of looking but they do seem pretty pricy. I might be better off going for the scoped class. I am only 32 but my eyes are not that good (too many hours studying the computer screen.) I guess the issued sites on those rifles are just plain superior. sort of makes you question whether it is issued class or 03 class. Most all of the winners do seem to use them. I leave that to people who know; but I would like to “know” something someday myself, and as I will likely be working on less money than will buy a competitive 03-03a3 maybe I should consider modified iron or scoped. I suppose that opens some doors.

What do you guys think about 98/29 persian Mausers? Samco has some in exc for$500 unissued for$700. I could try the issued sites and then alter if I had to. They also have the k31 for about half that but probably more used. Either way (or most likely ANY way) I will probably have to order a rifle site unseen online; thats making me nervous and sick right now.

Attached Files

BruceV posted this 12 July 2009

Vassal wrote: I have not done a great amount of looking but they do seem pretty pricy. I might be better off going for the scoped class. I am only 32 but my eyes are not that good (too many hours studying the computer screen.) I guess the issued sites on those rifles are just plain superior. sort of makes you question whether it is issued class or 03 class. Most all of the winners do seem to use them. I leave that to people who know; but I would like to “know” something someday myself, and as I will likely be working on less money than will buy a competitive 03-03a3 maybe I should consider modified iron or scoped. I suppose that opens some doors.

What do you guys think about 98/29 persian Mausers? Samco has some in exc for$500 unissued for$700. I could try the issued sites and then alter if I had to. They also have the k31 for about half that but probably more used. Either way (or most likely ANY way) I will probably have to order a rifle site unseen online; thats making me nervous and sick right now. Look at places like Culver Shooting Page - Want To Sell/Buy.  Do not be so concerned about if the rifle is “original” or not.  Focus on a good barrel.  03-A3 rifles can be bought in good shooting condition without breaking the bank.  If you look at gunshows, gunshops, on line, you can find rifles that have been drilled/tapped and maybe had the stock cut but no otherwise altered from military.  With a couple of plug screws, a used stock and handguard, etc., such rifles can be returned to military configuration and will give very good service.

If you buy anything at all on-line, make absolutely certain what is the return policy.  Be absolutely certain as to if you are allowed to fire the rifle.  Do no assume anything.  Take photographs of the rifle upon receipt as you remove it from the box noting details, etc.  That way if a return is necessary, you have some way of proving your case about the condition, etc.

Back to price... for $500-700 you should be able to find a nice 03-A3 rifle.  It may not be pristine unissued... but it should be very nice indeed.  What's more, it will be in a standard caliber.

Sincerely,

Bruce

Attached Files

CB posted this 12 July 2009

Vassal wrote: What do you guys think about 98/29 persian Mausers? Samco has some in exc for$500 unissued for$700.  

I guess we have different ideas about inexpensive rifles. You should be able to find a decent A3 in the 5-700 dollar range I'd think. You don't need a pristine bore or an unissued rifle to shoot in the matches. I'd stick with the K31s or the Springfields and if money vs bang for the buck was the deciding factor it'd be a K31. 

Attached Files

JetMech posted this 12 July 2009

pat i. wrote: I'd stick with the K31s or the Springfields and if money vs bang for the buck was the deciding factor it'd be a K31.  I'd second that. K31s can be had at half the price as a Springfield.

Competitive is a relative term. When I shot competatively long time ago (not in CBA then), it was more a matter of competing against myself to improve my performance with the equipment I had. In this sport (cast bullet matches) I think any decent rifle can be made competative. Half the challenge is finding the right bullet, getting it to match the throat of the rifle, then refining your load to produce the best groups from the bench. Then you have to be able to perform where the rubber meets the road. That's another story.

Attached Files

Vassal posted this 12 July 2009

Looks like I really have to spend some time looking and thinking about this purchase. I wouldn't say that I have a different idea about the price of rifles; for this purpose That price is really getting up there and would be a major commitment on my part, but I want to take that step and try to excell, in order to do that I will neeed a realy good bore and I am not sure about how easy they are to find. I am getting some great input here though most of it is at least modestly encouraging. It seems like it can be done.

After shooting the Mosin 91-30 today though I am not feeling great about my eyes and abilities. at 100 yds I wasn't grouping at all, but I was using surplus ammo and wasn't comfortable with my bags. (uhh hello,,,,) I question again the iron site class, but i just won't know till I try. Thanks guys for the great advice. With all these questions the reduced price of a good k31 might be the best start. Quick gimme one of each before they take my money.

Attached Files

Ed Harris posted this 15 July 2009

big boar wrote: Mr Harris, a bit off topic but you mentioned WW + 2% tin. WW are getting scarce around here, if I use pure Pb and about 4% tin, can I heat treat to get the hardness to about 15BHN? Sorry if this is off topic but you're here right now and you mentioned a load for that alloy. Many thanks Brian. IMHO you don't need alloy as hard as 15 BHN for target loads in most militaries. Keep the velocities below about 1700 f.p.s. and 12-13 BHN works fine.  Tin is the most expensive element in the alloy, but as little as 1/2% is adequate to make wheelweights or common backstop scrap cast OK.  More than 2% tin is a waste of money. If blending bullet metal from commercial alloys a 50-50 mix of linotype and pure lead casts wonderfully and yields about 13 BHN which I think is almost perfect.   If you blend commercial 92Pb-6Sb-2SN “Hardball” alloy 50-50 with pure lead you get a similarly nice casting, soft alloy, great for hunting, which will be about 12 BHN.

I approximate this alloy by salvaging backstop lead from an indoor police range where they shoot mostly 9mm and .40 cal. handguns, with a smattering of 12-ga. slugs, buckshot and .30 M1 carbine. My plumbers pot holds a 50 pound heat of this metal.  After skimming off the dirt and jacket metal I flux, then skim again, add one pound of 60-40 solder to the melt and flux again immediately before pouring my ingots. This gives an alloy approximately 96-3-1 which casts nice well filled out buillets at 12 BHN.   A good general purpose alloy for most use.

In the .30-'06 try 10 grs. of 7625, or 12 grs./ of PB, 15 grs. of #2400,  20 grs. of 4227, 22 grs. of 4198,  24 grs. of RL-7 or 26 grs. of 4895, RL-15 or Varget.  All good loads

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

Vassal posted this 08 October 2009

Well, I don't know if its the best but I just inspected an unissued 1968 finnish “sneak” M39. I bought it.

Attached Files

nimrod posted this 08 October 2009

I'm looking for something to use in the military matches myself and have wondered about the 1917 Enfield? It has peeps too, just not windage adjustable, heavier than the Springfield, looks like it would make a good match rifle. Is there something wrong with it?

Attached Files

Ed Harris posted this 08 October 2009

Some of the U.S. Enfield barrels run large, but as long as you use cast bullets that fit they shoot fine. I have a Winchester M1917 with Eddystone barrel which was a WWII San Antonio Arsenal rework which shoots very well. I found a Parker-Hale 5A receiver sight in UK which fits the similar .303 Pattern 14, and the combination shoots very well. I used to shoot it with cast in regular NRA highpower matches back to 600 yards, suppose I should dust it off and try it in the postals in mil-Modified.

In mine I use a 200-gr. LBT .312 pointed bullet with .303 bore riding nose and for short range to 200 yards 15.5 of #2400 with the bullet as-cast at 12BHN, for 300 yards and back around 50 grs. of W760 or 4350 or 54 grs. of 4831 with the ww+tin alloy quenched.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

Vassal posted this 08 October 2009

I didn't think that cast could handle the loads using 50 or so grains of slow powders (760/4350). Thats full-house! I have often heard others talking of poor accuracy and/or leading at those pressures/velocities.?. apparently I have a great deal more experimentation to do. In fact I even argued with a guy over this very subject teh other day. He insisted (without any cast experience) that his normal full-house jacketed loads would work fine with a lead bullet of similar weight. am I to believe that he wasn't as wrong as I thought he was?

  

Attached Files

billwnr posted this 08 October 2009

Vassal, I see you are a CBA member so go over to the Military match results and check out some of the loads being used by the 7.62x54R shooters. Very good starting points and usually they are pretty accurate. Pay attention to bullet diameter also and it will give you an idea of which moulds to use.

Attached Files

robertwilliam posted this 09 October 2009

IRT the K31s. How do you load for them? I have tried to load cast and jacketed bullets for mine but the nearly non existant throat gives me fits. The rifling begins about .040 in front of the case mouth. All the cast bullets I have tried end up with the GC way back inside the case, way past the neck.

  I do like my Mk1 m1903, it seems to shoot cast wheel weights nearly as goo as m2 ball. I'll try it at the next Service Rifle match. While I do belive the 03A3 has much better sights fir hunting and combat, I like the old 03 sights at the range. The small circular appature and fine front sight allow for a very fine picture even for my old eyes.

Attached Files

Show More Posts
Close