.38 S&W (not Special) and .38 Colt New Police

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Last Post 16 August 2016

CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 30 August 2015

I got inspired by Ric Bowman's article in the recent Fouling Shot and decided I should have a classic .38 S&W, swing-out cylinder, solid frame, vintage “cop gun” to experiment with and have fun. I found on GunBroker a circa 1930 Colt Police Positive .38, just like the one wielded by James Cagney in the 1931 gangster flick Public Enemy. I also lucked into a bunch of Fiocchi .38 S&W Corto 146-grain lead roundnosed ammo. I'll use the factory loads to establish baseline data and to get brass for reloading, but my main interest is the Accurate 36-201D ogival wadcutter, shown below in the “Crook's Eye View."

Range report to follow. In the meantime tell me about yours!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

CrooksEyeView38ColtPolicePositiveWith201D.jpg

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Standard Member

Pigslayer posted this 30 August 2015

Wow! That's a lot of bullet. Am anxious to hear the updates!

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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36-201D-D[1].png

CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 31 August 2015

Fired the Fiocchi .38 S&W Corto 146 LRN for velocity in the 4” Ruger, which has 0.005” cylinder gap.

Fiocchi .38 S&W Corto 146-grain LRN 809 fps, 21 Sd, ES 62, n=12 rds.

RUGER ONLY LOADS For Academic curiosity only:

NOE 359-190FNRD 2.5 Bullseye 738 fps, 17 Sd, 56 ES, n=12 rds.

NOE 359-190FNRD 6.2 #2400 806 fps, 26 Sd, 64 ES, n= 12 rds.

Accurate 36-201D 6.2 #2400 723 fps, 22 Sd, 62 ES, n=12 rds.

My Colt .38 Police Positive 4” SN 3401XX, manufacture date of 1930, is well after introduction of the Police Positive Special with longer frame window. It has cylinder gap 0.005” "Pass” and 0.006” "Hold,” with cylinder throats .3590-.3595", bore .344", with groove dia. .354."

Next is to chronograph the Fiocchi factory loads in the Colt, then try Accurate 36-155D, 36-178D and 36-201D to check point of impact, working up charges to develop 750 +/-30 with the 155D, 700 +/- 30 with the 178D and 600 +/- 30 with the 201D, which I believe should be safe in the older gun.

I expect that correct charges will be in the neighborhood of 2.5 Bullseye or 6.2 #2400 with 155D and 5.5 #2400 or 2.0 Bullseye with 178D and 201D, though will fire velocity checks in the Ruger first as sanity check!

I may also try Accurate 37-125T (heavy 9x18 Makarov bullet) sized .359 to see if I can get something around 830 +/-30 fps. in the Colt. I ordered my mold of this profile to drop .360+ in wheelweight rather than its normal .365+” intended for the Makarov PM pistol).

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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37-125T-D.png

CBA Member

tturner53 posted this 31 August 2015

My only .38 S&W is a very old but solid 5 shot top break. I've shot Winchester and Remington 145/146 gr. factory loads without problems in it. It's fun to mess around with. My only reloads have been with a Berry's 128 gr. lead RNFP over 3 gr. of Unique. Velocities are estimated around 650 fps. I don't shoot it much due to it's age. When I'm feeling nostalgic I play with my M&P .38 Special.

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 31 August 2015

With the top-breaks you need to be gentle, even with the British military ones. Your Unique load should be OK, but I wouldn't increase it any. From my experience tinkering with various .38 S&W revolvers while we were running the India order at Ruger, I found that the Colts of the 1930s had better metallurgy and heat treatment than the Victory Model S&Ws and seemed to typify the best manufacturing practices of that period, offering a compact, but sturdy and serviceable gun which both pocketed and shot well.

I've been quietly on the hunt for one for the last 30 years, which I could find for a shooter's, rather than a collector's price, and I finally got lucky!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

38ColtPolicePositive 010.JPG

CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 31 August 2015

Ed, I think your revolver was one of the high lights of the law enforcement adoption of effective calibers for the Eastern officers of the period. The introduction of the 38 Super Police was the high point of pocket revolver (these were carried in coat pockets that all men wore even in the summer, with tie) in 1929 for the short S&W case. The Special case went the other way, with a 150 round nose bullet at 1100 f/s in the 38/44 load. Until the .357 Magnum, it was the best .38 load, and in affordable revolvers. I like the short cylinder window, new style lock work and light weight barrel. What is the total weight? Plus it is a six shooter rather than 5 of the S&W Regulation Police. Ric

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Standard Member

Pigslayer posted this 31 August 2015

Ed Harris wrote: With the top-breaks you need to be gentle, even with the British military ones. Your Unique load should be OK, but I wouldn't increase it any. From my experience tinkering with various .38 S&W revolvers while we were running the India order at Ruger, I found that the Colts of the 1930s had better metallurgy and heat treatment than the Victory Model S&Ws and seemed to typify the best manufacturing practices of that period, offering a compact, but sturdy and serviceable gun which both pocketed and shot well.

I've been quietly on the hunt for one for the last 30 years, which I could find for a shooter's, rather than a collector's price, and I finally got lucky!
That is a beauty Ed!

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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CBA Member

john.dejarnette posted this 31 August 2015

Ed That is a beautiful revolver! Seems like we have similar tastes in steel and walnut :)

I am watching this experiment with great interest.

-john

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 01 September 2015

Gave it a good cleaning, stripped the years of accumulated black “goo” off the grips, giving then a healthy coat of Fairtrimmers stock oil, and touched up the holster worn metal with Brownell's Dichropan so the old girl looks much better now.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

ColtPolicePositive38 001.JPG

CBA Member

tturner53 posted this 02 September 2015

Nice. Thanks for sharing the pics. How does the frame compare to a Detective Special? I got my wife a DS 30 years ago. Neither of us has ever been nuts about it, preferring the K frames S&W in general. We keep the Colt for sentimental reasons.

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 02 September 2015

Detective Special has larger frame window and longer frame proportioned to .38 Special or .32-20, is 3 ozs. heavier, otherwise similar size. Here is a later Detective Special in .32 Colt New Police. The longer cylinder length is nice for the heavier bullets like Accurate 31-134D shown at left, 31-125D is center, and 31-114D at right.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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BunnyGuns 007.JPG

CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 02 September 2015

Ric, to answer your question, revolver is 20 ozs. empty weight, 23 ozs. with six rounds of factory ammo, 23-1/2 with 201D.

Accurate bullets run true to drawing weight spec. in wheelweights, 125T, 155D, 178D and 201D.

Accurate 36-155D from the two cavities I had Erik hollow-point, drop 142 grains in wheelweights, and 145 grains in 1:40 tin/lead, which I would use for carry.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Accurate38Bullets 012.JPG

CBA Member

Webley posted this 04 September 2015

My only .38 S&W (.380/200) is my Webley. It is an ex-Singapore Police example.

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Webley IV.jpg

CBA Member

Webley posted this 04 September 2015

My current load.

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38-200_reloads.JPG

CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 06 September 2015

Nice Webley. What does it weigh? Expect a bit large and heavy for the pocket. My Colt carries in trouser pocket just fine and I hope its 4” barrel will approximate what my 2” Colt DS does with .38 Special.

Testing to follow.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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ColtPolicePositive38 012.JPG

CBA Member

Webley posted this 14 September 2015

I just put it on the scale. Empty it weighs 24 oz. and that includes the safety. (see small rectangle above the grip). ;)

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Standard Member

Pigslayer posted this 14 September 2015

Ed Harris wrote: Gave it a good cleaning, stripped the years of accumulated black “goo” off the grips, giving then a healthy coat of Fairtrimmers stock oil, and touched up the holster worn metal with Brownell's Dichropan so the old girl looks much better now.

I really like that ED. Lord how I love wheelguns!

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 14 September 2015

Range day today.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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