.38 S&W (not Special) and .38 Colt New Police

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Ed Harris posted this 30 August 2015

I got inspired by Ric Bowman's article in the recent Fouling Shot and decided I should have a classic .38 S&W, swing-out cylinder, solid frame, vintage “cop gun” to experiment with and have fun.  I found on GunBroker a circa 1930 Colt Police Positive .38, just like the one wielded by James Cagney in the 1931 gangster flick Public Enemy. I also lucked into a bunch of Fiocchi .38 S&W Corto 146-grain lead roundnosed ammo.  I'll use the factory loads to establish baseline data and to get brass for reloading, but my main interest is the Accurate 36-201D ogival wadcutter, shown below in the “Crook's Eye View."

Range report to follow.  In the meantime tell me about yours!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Pigslayer posted this 30 August 2015

Wow! That's a lot of bullet. Am anxious to hear the updates!

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Ed Harris posted this 31 August 2015

Fired the Fiocchi .38 S&W Corto 146 LRN for velocity in the 4” Ruger, which has 0.005” cylinder gap. 

Fiocchi .38 S&W Corto 146-grain LRN 809 fps, 21 Sd, ES 62, n=12 rds.

RUGER ONLY LOADS For Academic curiosity only:

NOE 359-190FNRD 2.5 Bullseye 738 fps, 17 Sd, 56 ES, n=12 rds.

NOE 359-190FNRD 6.2 #2400 806 fps, 26 Sd, 64 ES, n= 12 rds.

Accurate 36-201D 6.2 #2400 723 fps, 22 Sd, 62 ES, n=12 rds.

My Colt .38 Police Positive 4” SN 3401XX, manufacture date of 1930, is well after introduction of the Police Positive Special with longer frame window. It has cylinder gap 0.005” "Pass” and 0.006” "Hold,” with cylinder throats .3590-.3595", bore .344", with groove dia. .354."

Next is to chronograph the Fiocchi factory loads in the Colt, then try Accurate 36-155D, 36-178D and 36-201D to check point of impact, working up charges to develop 750 +/-30 with the 155D, 700 +/- 30 with the 178D and 600 +/- 30 with the 201D, which I believe should be safe in the older gun.

I expect that correct charges will be in the neighborhood of 2.5 Bullseye or 6.2 #2400 with 155D and 5.5 #2400 or 2.0 Bullseye with 178D and 201D, though will fire velocity checks in the Ruger first as sanity check!

I may also try Accurate 37-125T (heavy 9x18 Makarov bullet) sized .359 to see if I can get something around 830 +/-30 fps. in the Colt. I ordered my mold of this profile to drop .360+ in wheelweight rather than its normal .365+” intended for the Makarov PM pistol).

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tturner53 posted this 31 August 2015

My only .38 S&W is a very old but solid 5 shot top break. I've shot Winchester and Remington 145/146 gr. factory loads without problems in it. It's fun to mess around with. My only reloads have been with a Berry's 128 gr. lead RNFP over 3 gr. of Unique. Velocities are estimated around 650 fps. I don't shoot it much due to it's age. When I'm feeling nostalgic I play with my M&P .38 Special.

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Ed Harris posted this 31 August 2015

With the top-breaks you need to be gentle, even with the British military ones.   Your Unique load should be OK, but I wouldn't increase it any.  From my experience tinkering with various .38 S&W revolvers while we were running the India order at Ruger, I found that the Colts of the 1930s had better metallurgy and heat treatment than the Victory Model S&Ws and seemed to typify the best manufacturing practices of that period, offering a compact, but sturdy and serviceable gun which both pocketed and shot well.  

I've been quietly on the hunt for one for the last 30 years, which I could find for a shooter's, rather than a collector's price, and I finally got lucky!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

RicinYakima posted this 31 August 2015

Ed, I think your revolver was one of the high lights of the law enforcement adoption of effective calibers for the Eastern officers of the period. The introduction of the 38 Super Police was the high point of pocket revolver (these were carried in coat pockets that all men wore even in the summer, with tie) in 1929 for the short S&W case. The Special case went the other way, with a 150 round nose bullet at 1100 f/s in the 38/44 load. Until the .357 Magnum, it was the best .38 load, and in affordable  revolvers. I like the short cylinder window, new style lock work and light weight barrel. What is the total weight? Plus it is a six shooter rather than 5 of the S&W Regulation Police. Ric

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Pigslayer posted this 31 August 2015

Ed Harris wrote: With the top-breaks you need to be gentle, even with the British military ones.   Your Unique load should be OK, but I wouldn't increase it any.  From my experience tinkering with various .38 S&W revolvers while we were running the India order at Ruger, I found that the Colts of the 1930s had better metallurgy and heat treatment than the Victory Model S&Ws and seemed to typify the best manufacturing practices of that period, offering a compact, but sturdy and serviceable gun which both pocketed and shot well.  

I've been quietly on the hunt for one for the last 30 years, which I could find for a shooter's, rather than a collector's price, and I finally got lucky!
That is a beauty Ed!  

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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john.dejarnette posted this 31 August 2015

Ed That is a beautiful revolver! Seems like we have similar tastes in steel and walnut :)

I am watching this experiment with great interest.

-john

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Ed Harris posted this 01 September 2015

Gave it a good cleaning, stripped the years of accumulated black “goo” off the grips, giving then a healthy coat of Fairtrimmers stock oil, and touched up the holster worn metal with Brownell's Dichropan so the old girl looks much better now.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

tturner53 posted this 02 September 2015

Nice. Thanks for sharing the pics. How does the frame compare to a Detective Special? I got my wife a DS 30 years ago. Neither of us has ever been nuts about it, preferring the K frames S&W in general. We keep the Colt for sentimental reasons.

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Ed Harris posted this 02 September 2015

Detective Special has larger frame window and longer frame proportioned to .38 Special or .32-20, is 3 ozs. heavier, otherwise similar size.  Here is a later Detective Special in .32 Colt New Police.  The longer cylinder length is nice for the heavier bullets like Accurate 31-134D shown at left, 31-125D is center, and 31-114D at right.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 02 September 2015

Ric, to answer your question, revolver is 20 ozs. empty weight, 23 ozs. with six rounds of factory ammo, 23-1/2 with 201D.

Accurate bullets run true to drawing weight spec. in wheelweights, 125T, 155D, 178D and 201D.

Accurate 36-155D from the two cavities I had Erik hollow-point, drop 142 grains in wheelweights, and 145 grains in 1:40 tin/lead, which I would use for carry.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Webley posted this 04 September 2015

My only .38 S&W (.380/200) is my Webley.  It is an ex-Singapore Police example.

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Webley posted this 04 September 2015

My current load.

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Ed Harris posted this 06 September 2015

Nice Webley. What does it weigh? Expect a bit large and heavy for the pocket. My Colt carries in trouser pocket just fine and I hope its 4” barrel will approximate what my 2” Colt DS does with .38 Special.

Testing to follow.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Webley posted this 14 September 2015

I just put it on the scale.  Empty it weighs 24 oz. and that includes the safety.   (see small rectangle above the grip).  ;)

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Pigslayer posted this 14 September 2015

Ed Harris wrote: Gave it a good cleaning, stripped the years of accumulated black “goo” off the grips, giving then a healthy coat of Fairtrimmers stock oil, and touched up the holster worn metal with Brownell's Dichropan so the old girl looks much better now.

I really like that ED. Lord how I love wheelguns!

 

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Ed Harris posted this 14 September 2015

Range day today.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 15 September 2015

More eye candy from today's range session:

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 15 September 2015

More eye candy from today's range session:

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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john.dejarnette posted this 16 September 2015

Ed you are making me green with envy. This project is very interesting.

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Ed Harris posted this 16 September 2015

Colt is quite obviously sighted for 146-grain bullets, so the 201-grain ogival wadcutter will be relegated to my 4-5/8” .357 Ruger Vaquero, which shoots LOW with everything I've tried in it, and I have resisted filing the front sight.  The 201D with a stiff charge of #2400 in .38 Special may be the answer for the Vaquero.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 16 September 2015

Well, 146 grains was the standard from 1872 to today. The 200 grain bullet was a speciality item.

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tturner53 posted this 17 September 2015

The 146 is good for targets and small critters and plinkin'. I'd still load the 200 if I was heading for the snakey woods.

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M3 Mitch posted this 24 September 2015

I do have an old top break S&W in 38 S&W caliber, old enough that the cylinder rotates the same direction as a modern Colt. I have shot it with a starting load of Unique and a 133 grain Lyman cast bullet. The rear sight is part of the locking top strap, both sights are fine and getting harder to see as time goes on, but it is actually a good, accurate shooter. (My first post here - been a CBA member since 1982 but just getting to this forum - better late than never!)

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Ed Harris posted this 25 September 2015

I'm sending my Accurate 36-201D mold to Erik Ohlen at www.hollowpointmold.com to do his inset bar conversion and convert it to a cup point “Manstopper” profile with “cavernous cup point” looking for 185-190 grains in soft 1:40 alloy.

Stay tuned!!!!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 18 October 2015

And here it is!  All 188 grains of it!  May try it as an HBWC as well as a cup point. Besides testing in the .38 S&W, I want to do .38 Special to see if it feeds in the Marlin, and if it does, will try in the .35/.30-30 as a .35 cal. version of the Ness Safety Bullet.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Webley posted this 18 October 2015

Very interesting. I look forward to your report as to how it works.

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LouisianaMan posted this 01 August 2016

Ed and Ric, I've enjoyed your “Fouling Shot” articles associated with this project, and just managed to stumble across this forum thread today! For many reasons I've explained elsewhere, I have a big soft spot for the .38 S&W cartridge and guns that shoot it, so this is all “red meat” for me. Ed kindly provided me 200 bullets he cast from his Accurate custom molds: 50 each 125g LFN, 146g LHP, 152g LFP, and a crusher 178g LFP designed especially to match up with the Indian contract Rugers built to use Mk 2/2Z 178g FMJ ammo. I've just finished loading the three lighter bullets over 3.0g of Win231, to compare to the sweet spot Ed found for 200fpe loads at 2.7g BE.  My shooting will also be done with vintage “cop guns,” but made by Colt's old rival Smith & Wesson. In order to provide a direct counterpoint to Ed's vintage Colt, I'll use an I-Frame Regulation Police 4", but also a 2” I-Terrier, as the main platforms. I also plan to use the Improved I-frame guns in 4” and 2", as well as their beefier J frame offspring, the Mods. 33-1 (4") and 32-1 (2").  My goal is to provide results of this 3.0g Win231 load in all three generations of the Smith guns, just for the heck of it! And naturally I'll try to provide some nice eye candy photos that highlight the similarities and differences of these classic revolvers. I'll also use a Ruger Indian contract Speed-Six with 2 3/4” barrel, which should give an interesting comparison to Ed's 4” Service-Six. Before shooting, I need to load up Ed's 178g LFPs over 2.7g of Win 231 (he used 2.5g BE). Fortunately, I also have a number of vintage and current commercial loads to shoot, plus a few more handloads that I'll try to fit in. I'll plan to put in some range reports here as I go along, and then put it all into article & tabular form for The Fouling Shot. With Ed having covered Colt and Ric covering the Victory model for some comparison, my use of the old cop & civilian Smiths will round out our picture of some possibilities with the solid-frame guns in the old .38 S&W. I expect the Smiths, which tend to run .359 groove diameter, will generate generally lower velocities than Ed's Colt. But by nudging my load to 3.0g of W231, I hope to get lucky and achieve a good performance match between his Colt and the larger diameter Smiths, while also accounting for the difference between his use of Bullseye and my W231. Of course, the tightness (or lack of it) of the various individual revolvers is the main variable, but it'll be fun nonetheless. Likewise, the use of both 4” and 2” guns side-by-side will give us a nice feel for what the old-time detectives and plainclothesmen would have had going for them with these large-meplat bullets. All: keep an eye on this thread for updates coming soon!

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LouisianaMan posted this 01 August 2016

Oh, .38 S&W (and classic revolver) fans: Ed mentioned Jimmy Cagney putting the beautiful old Colt through its paces on the silver screen. It reminds me that a celebrity of a different sort, namely master wheelgunner Ed McGivern, often selected the S&W Regulation Police for his carry gun in real life...which is pretty doggoned impressive IMO!

Although he had a “McGivern” gold bead front sight installed, it was otherwise stock, and he described it as “...an ideal, light weight, fast and accurate, dependable revolver for general protection purposes.” He further noted that he often carried this gun in a suspender holster, considering that its “small bulk makes it convenient and comfortable to carry when wearing your 'all dressed up.'” (McGivern, Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, p. 272).

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LouisianaMan posted this 01 August 2016

Hey Ed, Did you ever get this 188g super-heavyweight (see post #27) to expand from a .38 S&W cartridge??? Should be possible in your Ruger--at least according to Ken Waters in his “Pet Loads", where he moved a 200g bullet at an MV of 884 fps (!!!!)-- but I dunno at pressures suitable for lighter solid frames.  What say you?

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Ed Harris posted this 01 August 2016

Did not expand at velocities I would attempt with the Colt or Webley. Fine in the Ruger at 850 fps .38 Special +P.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 01 August 2016

L'Man,

While you are working on your updates, please consider adding a column on how POA and POI compare. That is always a question that comes up. For my short fat hands, they can be wildly divergent, but shoot close with the right loads, i.e. the Victory models shoot very well with 200 grain bullets and standard velocity.

Will be watching! Ric

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LouisianaMan posted this 01 August 2016

188g cup point at 850+ fps...that would be an attention-getter, all right! Velocity almost the same as traditional 158g “FBI Loads,” with an increase in bullet weight of 19%. And an absolutely cavernous hole in the front!!!

Of course those numbers are orders of magnitude above the traditional .38 S&W factory ammo that McGivern was familiar with in the 1930's, but nonetheless thought I'd add another little citation from his book. On p. 273, he pictured his .38 S&W Safety Hammerless 2” revolver and praised it as “...fast, handy and plenty accurate, and a hard hitter.”

As I will show in tabulated data in my subsequent reports, one vintage .38 New Police load (Peters? Going from memory, so will double-check!) averaged 770 fps with a 150g LFP from a 4” Mod. 33-1. That's essentially standard-velocity .38 Special speed, with a bullet only 8 grains lighter. Older commercial ammunition was often listed at 720-25, 740-50, or thereabouts.

If that's the sort of ammo McGivern was using, as I suppose it was, no wonder he called his 2” Safety Hammerless a “hard hitter.” And even though McGivern was a shooter and law enforcement trainer, not a law enforcement officer, his opinions in the matter are worthy of some respect!

My point is simply that weak factory loads common today, with 145-46g LRN bullets advertised at 685--but which are likely to chrony at far slower vels--are loaded to “lowest common denominator” levels to ensure that people don't blow up Grandpa's old nightstand gun. Granted, I have a vintage load that dawdled across the sensors at a smoking 585 fps, a full 100 fps south of the lowest advertised velocities I've ever seen for factory ammo.

Those kinds of leisurely loads (and the now-ancient top breaks themselves) naturally cause modern shooters to assume a dismissive attitude to the .38 S&W for defensive purposes. But with imaginative bullet designs loaded to velocities practical in the solid-frame Colts and Smiths, the .38 S&W assumes a different aspect.

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LouisianaMan posted this 01 August 2016

Ric: duly noted!

Whereas I have found that the trajectories of my various 200g loads are loved by Enfields and at least liked by the Victory Model, they have thrown quite high in standard commercial Colts and Smiths. Accurate and consistent, yes, but commonly 6-8” high at ranges from 40-50' up to 25 yards....

Although I'm testing Ed's Accurate mold bullets at a single W231 power level aimed at resembling his results with Bullseye, I will strive to provide some useful input on the POA-POI relationships I get.

I commonly CC .38 S&W revolvers, although sometimes I choose flatter automatics. Due to POA-POI issues, I usually load a 4” gun with a bullet in the 135-158g range to facilitate a more accurate shot at relatively longer distances. I like to use the 200g in snubs, where a close range shot pointed at center mass achieves a nifty upper-center mass hit. Spare ammo for everything, however, is commonly a 200g bullet that duplicates the old NEI 169A long-nose, as that bullet profile finds its way so easily into the chambers. I know that you've raised Hob with jackrabbits using that bullet over the years :-)

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Ed Harris posted this 02 August 2016

LM, very interested to see your results. I think 231 can probably be increased 10% over my Bullseye loads, for simiar velocity. But as you noted, larger cylinder throats and groove diameter will result in velocities closer to my Webley & Scott Mark IV than to the Colt.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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LouisianaMan posted this 02 August 2016

Thanks, Ed. I've got to track down a new place to do my chrony & target work, but that shouldn't take too long. Too bad it's coming together exactly at the beginning of a new school year, but it's just been that kind of summer!

Can't wait to try all of your bullets, but especially those whopping 178g LFNs! Would like to develop a Ruger-only load and also something suitable for my I- and J-frame Smiths. I expect the Ruger to shoot to the sights (or it will be my fault, since 178g Mk2Z ball ammo is what you built them for!). Not so much with the Smiths, but perhaps it will have a more useful trajectory than the several types of 200g bullets I've used. The 200's are fine for the extremely close ranges that concern me most in CC, but you never know.

I live in Baton Rouge only about 5 minutes' drive from the spot where our police officers were recently assassinated, and routinely pass that busy location. The police shooting incident that allegedly triggered the assassin has not been ruled upon yet as justified or not. Times suddenly might get interesting regardless of the decision, and no telling its date or time....

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Ed Harris posted this 02 August 2016

In the Ruger try 7 grs. of Alliant #2400 in Starline brass with the 178D and Federal 200 primer.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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harleyrock posted this 03 August 2016

I find this thread very interesting. The only way I know how to subscribe to it is to post to it.  I don't have anything to contribute to it just now, just want to follow along.

Lifetime NRA since 1956, NRA Benefactor, USN Member, CBA Member

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LouisianaMan posted this 15 August 2016

Well, this flooding is getting in the way of my experimenting, among other things! We personally are fortunate, having only lost power and not gotten flooded out. To the insurance folks it's a 500-year flood event. To us regular people, it's amazing to see places flood catastrophically in places that have never flooded whatsoever in anyone's memory, regardless of hurricanes, tropical storms, tropical depressions--you name it.

Look on your maps just east of Baton Rouge at the modest little Comite R., then a bit farther east to the Amite R., and those two have really nailed us between the eyes. Much of the B.R. workforce lives on the east and southeast of town, or a bit beyond, and that's precisely the area that got hammered the very worst. So even businesses in town that weren't damaged either have a dislocated work force, or flooded traffic corridors, or both, and either can't function at all or only at reduced capacity.

Your correspondent found out the hard way that well-intended preventive maintenance on my 5kw generator had unintended results. The fuel bowl wasn't precisely aligned with the O-ring on the opposite (invisible) side, and didn't compress it perfectly into its machined groove when I'd cleaned and reassembled the carb. Luckily I found the Class 3 leak soon after I powered things up (the old “during operations PMCS"), before a fire could start in the carport and burn down the house. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

So, that brand-new pound of 2400 I obtained from Revolvergeek for a pound of N310, has not yet charged a single case. Not to mention, getting anywhere to shoot will be a challenge for a while!

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RicinYakima posted this 16 August 2016

LM,

My sympathy, but things happen. Glad you are doing well and didn't burn your house down. Hopefully you have enough 38 S&W loaded to keep the vermin and varmints out of the house.

Ric

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