WHERE ARE YOU WIZARDS??

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Last Post 27 December 2014

CBA Member

joeb33050 posted this 11 December 2014

We got LMG and BJORN talking about 2700 fps 30 caliber XCB bullets in 308 and ??30xcb and shooting under 1” 100 yard groups. Where are the wizards, why are you talking about melting noses and breech seating and other non-wizardry.THIS IS IT!! Unless it's a joke, 2700 fps solves all the wind problems and offers a new direction, something we sorely need. Let's capture them and waterboard them if they won't explain! Am I the only one alarmed?

OTOH, I scored a big pail of wheelweights, and Can you shoot gas check bullets without gas checks?

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onondaga posted this 11 December 2014

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3>joeb33050

Gas checked bullets without gas checks are heeled bullets they shoot just fine.

Gary

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 12 December 2014

Joe, Please see your post about the 1/2” hurdle. Ric

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CBA Member

pat i. posted this 12 December 2014

If I remember right me and Yarborough were doing it a few years back with fixed ammunition (H.L. with a 30 BR and me with a 30x47) and shorter barrels because of weight restrictions in CBA matches. Problem is to get it you need a slower twist which means a lighter bullet which means I gained nothing over using my 250 grain bullet in a faster twist at a much slower pace once I checked the BC and ran the numbers. It didn't raise much interest then and I expect once things settle down and people find out the costs involved in experimenting it won't find many disciples now. It is interesting and fun to watch and follow along though.

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CBA Member

bjornb posted this 12 December 2014

Joe,there's no reason for alarm. Yes, last night my rifle shot a 5-shot group at Markham Park that measured .9 inches. Avg. MV 2851 fps, ES 45, SD 18.3. Cartridge was 30XCB wildcat (30x57), bullet was NOE 310-165-FN (xcb). Charge was 56 grains RL-22, case filled to overflow and sealed with a lube cookie. Alloy was Linotype, lube:Lars White Label 2700+. Bullet sized to .310, Hornady gas check. Breech seated with Tim Malcolm's breech seater. I prefer 10-shot groups, but only had 5 of these cases preloaded. Pat Iffland can be assured that witnesses were present. Also shot last night: 10 shots, 100 yards, same combo as above but fixed ammo: 45 grains Winchester 760. Group size 1.60", avg. MV 2658 fps 10 shots, 100 yards, 43 grains LeveRevolution, group size 2.1", avg. MV 2846 fps The rifle is an old target gun (mid-50s, I have seen a picture of Gene Beecher holding an identical rifle). Big thumbhole stock, FN commercial BLIND SS action, new Shilen Match SS barrel, 30.5 inches, 1:14 twist. I purchased the rifle as an old-fashioned “long range” rifle chambered in 30-338 Win Mag, with a shot out barrel. An “accident” that involved shooting a cleaning rod 50 yards at 1800 fps (chronographed) sealed the barrel's fate and it was re-barreled to its current condition.

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 12 December 2014

To add a bit to Pat's post, in the 2007 CBA nationals HL Yarborough shot a 107 grain monotype bullet in a 30 BR with an 18” twist at 2,750fps and won the unrestricted rifle class.

Pat used a 155 grain linotype bullet at 2,650 fps and did respectably in heavy class. Pat's 5-shot group 100 yard 7aggregate was .786"-- 1.70” at 200.

There are lots of ways to skin a cat and I look forward to hearing of bjorn's continuing experiments. This is the sort of thing that makes cast bullet shooting interesting. i may have to take another look at 14” twist 222s with short, hard, fast bullets.

John

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CBA Member

pat i. posted this 12 December 2014

bjornb wrote: Pat Iffland can be assured that witnesses were present. LOL! Pat Iffland was a member of an unnamed forum from 2005 til he quit and a member of it's predecessor for a few years before that so read about more un-witnessed or un-registered half inch groups than you can shake a stick at. Just got bit by the old Missouri “Show Me" bug after a while.

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CBA Member

bjornb posted this 12 December 2014

Very cool stats, thanks John. Yeah I knew this was not a new “fad", others have clearly shot HV successfully before. However, the purpose of the XCB project was partially to find out just HOW fast we could push a 30-cal, 165 grain cast bullet and retain acceptable accuracy. And we are not there yet.

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CBA Member

bjornb posted this 12 December 2014

pat i. wrote: bjornb wrote: Pat Iffland can be assured that witnesses were present. LOL! Pat Iffland was a member of a unnamed forum from 2005 til he quit and a member of it's predecessor for a few years before that so read about more un-witnessed or un-registered half inch groups than you can shake a stick at. Just got bit by the old Missouri “Show Me" bug after a while. And I don't blame you one bit. Why don't you try discussing groups with Starmetal? He has never shot a group larger than a quarter inch or slower than 2500 fps. In the dark. Backwards. While whistling Dixie.

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CBA Member

pat i. posted this 12 December 2014

bjornb wrote: Very cool stats, thanks John. Yeah I knew this was not a new “fad", others have clearly shot HV successfully before. However, the purpose of the XCB project was partially to find out just HOW fast we could push a 30-cal, 165 grain cast bullet and retain acceptable accuracy. And we are not there yet. You're doing a great job and I really enjoy your writing and testing, never found a reason to doubt anything you've said. If you're able to get the 14 twist shooting MOA aggregates in the 2800 fps range you're doing things I didn't think possible. Once you get to what you think are the limits of that barrel try throwing a 17 or 18 twist on it and see what happens.

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CBA Member

bjornb posted this 12 December 2014

Pat, no offense taken, you cracked me up because some of the “naysayers” on the other unnamed forum always had bucket loads of excuses lined up for why we could never see any proof of what they claimed to be shooting.

You are correct, now comes the long haul: establishing the repeatability of these loads, and taking them out to 200 and 300 yards to show linear dispersion with my rifle. That involves a road trip to the next county, but is in the plans for January.

Brunos has 17 inch Kriegers in stock...........:fire

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CBA Member

pat i. posted this 12 December 2014

bjornb wrote: Brunos has 17 inch Kriegers in stock...........:fire Now you're talking. For an enjoyable little side trip with your rifle forget about speed for a day and try loading that thing down to 2200 fps or so with some Varget or VV135. I'd be interested to see what breach seating does for a bolt gun with a load that makes sense...................just kidding. :D

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CBA Member

bjornb posted this 12 December 2014

Funny you should say that. I had 20 cases with 29 and 30 grs. Varget, held by a tuft of Dacron, loaded up for last night's range trip. However, the breech seating was causing some fouling in the forward part of the chamber after about 20 rounds (and I had no cleaning supplies), so the breech seater was sticking and getting difficult to extract. I packed up at that point, but I intend to shoot those rounds next range trip. Loads were taken from reading Fouling Shot match data. Good call.

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CBA Member

frnkeore posted this 12 December 2014

Slow'm down to around 1500 and on occasion, you can get groups of five, shot in a match and and sign by the witnesses like this at 200 yards. Not a record, it's about .1” off it. Frank

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CBA Member

pat i. posted this 12 December 2014

bjornb wrote: Funny you should say that. I had 20 cases with 29 and 30 grs. Varget, held by a tuft of Dacron, loaded up for last night's range trip. However, the breech seating was causing some fouling in the forward part of the chamber after about 20 rounds (and I had no cleaning supplies), so the breech seater was sticking and getting difficult to extract. I packed up at that point, but I intend to shoot those rounds next range trip. Loads were taken from reading Fouling Shot match data. Good call.

Once you start shooting repeatable small groups you'll forget all about hot rodding. Plus it's cheaper!

Great group Frank.

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CBA Member

bjornb posted this 12 December 2014

That's pretty darn good Frank, but I'll let you rule in that end of the specter, I'm starting to like them hot....:hunt:

Both Pat and Frank: it takes all kinds, that's what makes this such a great hobby!!!

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CBA Member

pat i. posted this 12 December 2014

bjornb wrote: That's pretty darn good Frank, but I'll let you rule in that end of the specter, I'm starting to like them hot....:hunt:

Both Pat and Frank: it takes all kinds, that's what makes this such a great hobby!!! I've been most of those kinds so know what you mean.

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CBA Member

Pentz posted this 12 December 2014

bjornb wrote: Joe,there's no reason for alarm. Yes, last night my rifle shot a 5-shot group at Markham Park that measured .9 inches. Avg. MV 2851 fps, ES 45, SD 18.3. Cartridge was 30XCB wildcat (30x57), bullet was NOE 310-165-FN (xcb). Charge was 56 grains RL-22, case filled to overflow and sealed with a lube cookie. Alloy was Linotype, lube:Lars White Label 2700+. Bullet sized to .310, Hornady gas check. Breech seated with Tim Malcolm's breech seater. I prefer 10-shot groups, but only had 5 of these cases preloaded. Pat Iffland can be assured that witnesses were present. Also shot last night: 10 shots, 100 yards, same combo as above but fixed ammo: 45 grains Winchester 760. Group size 1.60", avg. MV 2658 fps 10 shots, 100 yards, 43 grains LeveRevolution, group size 2.1", avg. MV 2846 fps The rifle is an old target gun (mid-50s, I have seen a picture of Gene Beecher holding an identical rifle). Big thumbhole stock, FN commercial BLIND SS action, new Shilen Match SS barrel, 30.5 inches, 1:14 twist. I purchased the rifle as an old-fashioned “long range” rifle chambered in 30-338 Win Mag, with a shot out barrel. An “accident” that involved shooting a cleaning rod 50 yards at 1800 fps (chronographed) sealed the barrel's fate and it was re-barreled to its current condition.

Not to be cheeky or disrespectful, but what is extraordinary about a 10-round group of 1.6 or 2.1 inches? I must be missing something?

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CBA Member

pat i. posted this 12 December 2014

The velocity he's shooting at.

It's a work in progress and not a bad start although I'd like to see a few more aggregates. Not an indictment by any means just an observation from a guy that used to shoot matches and knows repeatable aggs tell the whole story.

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CBA Member

bjornb posted this 12 December 2014

Definitely a work in progress and I don't fault you guys for asking questions. I'll answer them if I can. As Pat says, we are off to an interesting start but much shooting is needed before any conclusions can be drawn.

Oh no, I have to go shoot again?? The burdens I have to carry.....