My new 45 cal 230 grain truncated cone mold

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  • Last Post 03 May 2014
csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

Here's a few pics of the new Lee mold results: 

http://s777.photobucket.com/user/csparks1106/media/36069586-15DA-4D0B-AA3B-714045B39796.jpg.html>http://s777.photobucket.com/user/csparks1106/media/AB9BFA60-FA11-4775-BA57-450C2E3D7D7D.jpg.html>

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

http://s777.photobucket.com/user/csparks1106/media/06EA4517-A9DB-4735-A266-60968FD98625.jpg.html>

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold TL452-230 45 ACP, 45 Auto Rim, 45 Colt (Long Colt) (452 Diameter) 230 Grain Tumble Lube 

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onondaga posted this 24 April 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7953>csparks1106

I know you have been trying hard! However your bullets look like your alloy is contaminated with Zinc causing severe surface porosity and you have cold short ripple and low fill-out quality.

These have been sized and checked but you can see the difference in fill-out and surface condition with no Zinc contamination of a certified alloy:

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/AL45RD.jpg.html>

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

I guess maybe that's possible, but I go through every single wheel weight and pinch it with a pair of dykes/side cutters to make sure only lead goes into the mix. I understand that zinc typically shows a blackish residue in the mix. I typically flux after I have added a new ingot. I use a wax that is made for thread cutting and drilling. It comes in a tube like a tube of grease. I just scoop a little out with a small screwdriver, roll it into a little ball and then stir it in with a spoon. After it is done smoking(no flames) I scrape it out and discard it. There is some dark looking crud that I scoop out, but it seems to be minimal. How can I tell if I have zinc or some other issue? Thanks

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onondaga posted this 24 April 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7953>csparks1106

Zinc makes no blackish residue in a melt, it will show up as a thickened glop on the surface of  melt if there is enough of it, but Zinc is silver in color and stays silver in color. It only takes 1/2 of 1% to cause the surface porosity you have. It is hard to cast well with Zinc in an alloy and higher temp helps. But, your casting that well with Zinc in your alloy says that if you had NO zinc that your bullets would be night to day better.

Here is another pic of mine I found that has sharp close-up photography of a zinc free alloy. Compare this to your surfaces:

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/PC250050_zpsdf8b7ee2.jpg.html>

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onondaga posted this 24 April 2014

You would need a professional assay of your alloy to determine the presence and percentage of Zinc, but the surface you are getting on your bullets is a textbook perfect picture of Zinc contamination in a cast  bullet alloy.

I have had the same problem with wheel weight ingots that were free from a friend. I will use the stuff for buckshot casting but won't use it for bullets again.

Here is some bullets on the right that I cast from a Zinc Contaminated alloy. Look closely and note the surface similarity to yours:

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/excessLLA_zpse4413d10.jpg.html>

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tturner53 posted this 24 April 2014

How hot does the alloy have to be to get the floating zinc wheel weight to melt?

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onondaga posted this 24 April 2014

787.2 degrees F. is the transition point of Zinc where It begins to melt. So, if you run hotter than that Zinc will begin to alloy with the lower melt metals in your pot.

So, melting scrap lower than the transition is safe to keep Zinc from alloying in your pot with scrap. Below 750 would be a very safe line to practice for melting scrap if you have an accurate thermometer and are very familiar with the pot setting that will NOT allow over 750 F. .  Solid Zinc will just float up in melted lead that is 750 Degrees F. This is why I recommend not just turning up your pot all the way to melt scrap. Most lead melting pots easily go over 800 F. if you just turn them up all the way and that 800 + will alloy Zinc into your bullet metal easily.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 24 April 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7953>csparks1106

If you are fluxing at a temperature that is not hot enough to flame your flux or  flame a small tightly rolled wand of news paper, your metal is NOT hot enough to flux at all. The black you are getting is from flux that was not hot enough to burn and turn into ash. Black in the pot after fluxing with a petroleum based flux is a clear indication your pot is NOT hot enough to flux. You should have ash, lead oxide Dross and dirt  impurities that easily skim off the surface after fluxing correctly at the right heat.

Burning of the flux is important because the flame deprives the melt surface of Oxygen and that is an important step of fluxing that allows some of the Tin oxide to be harmlessly returned to alloy as Tin into your alloy from what is called “Reduction Fluxing".  Proper fluxing this way aids in lowering Tin loss in addition to cleaning the metal.

Try this and change your habit, you will get better results from your fluxing. Tin Oxide can be rubbed with a spoon into the pot side and down while under an oxygen deprived melt surface and then the tin Oxide will change back to tin and most of it will re-alloy if you keep it rubbed under and stir it back in.

Lead Oxide will not do that but Tin Oxide will. The rubbing separates the Lead Oxide or reduces it from the Tin Oxide and reduces the Tin from the Oxide in an Oxygen deprived melt surface while rubbing.

Dropping wax into a pot and stirring is not fluxing if done at to low a temperature, it is just melting wax and has no effect on cleaning metal or returning the tin from oxide.

Many things can be used for flux successfully. I have used Pine Sawdust, osage sawdust, ground leather, ground charcoal, ground walnut shell, bees wax, candle wax, motor oil. They all will burn, carbonize and turn into ash when used correctly and will create an oxygen deprived melt surface by flame for a short time for reduction fluxing.

Gary

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John Alexander posted this 24 April 2014 

   Interesting thread with a lot of good information about a possibility many of us need to look out for as more and more zinc wheelweights turn up in different shapes.

  My reason for writing is to give cpsparks a little good news.  Your bullets will probably shoot fine.  Don't throw your possibly contaminated allow away. If the dimensions of your bullets are right and the hardness is appropriate for your application you won't be able to tell the difference from “perfect” bullets by shooting them.    Even if your were shooting them in a custom built 45ACP benchrest rifle (we had one show up at the CBA nationals one year) I doubt you could tell the difference between your bullets and perfect looking ones if the dimensions and hardness were the same.   My point is to go shoot the bullets and enjoy it.  Don't fuss about the casting or loading and make it so complicated that you spend all your time fiddling with details.  Good results can be achieved by keeping it simple.  Some shooters get so caught up in the details and unproven rules of what you MUST do that it ruins the fun of cast bullet shooting.  When you are up to your rear end in alligators it is hard to remember that you came to drain the swamp.   That is not to say that you shouldn't follow Gary's advice in keeping zinc out of the melt the next time you melt wheelweights.  You can also enjoy improving your casting techniques and the bullets that result without making is complicated ”€œ just don't let it interfere with your shooting.

John

 

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

Here's a close up of some that I picked out this morning. They don't appear to have the same porosity issue. They all came from the same batch. http://s777.photobucket.com/user/csparks1106/media/8A1AD8B3-97BE-41A8-9F90-D9D1E6462B32.jpg.html>

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 24 April 2014

They are well filled out, maybe a little debris in the melt, probably too hot for melt and alloy as they are frosty. Better frosty than undersized by incomplete fillout. Usually, in my experience with scrap alloys, slight zinc contamination will result in undersized castings. If you feel obligated, check the average weight of a few to see if they are close to nominal weight, and do not get too caught up in details at this point.  Go have fun with these.

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

Ok, couple quick questions. Fluxing: Are you supposed to ignite the flux, or should it ignite on its own? I was casting over 775 degrees last night and I'm assuming that should be plenty hot for the fluxing process. I also stir it around, stirring the bottom and all the way through the pot. I haven't intentionally taken the crud and tried to stir it back in, but it was definitely stirred.Whoops, time to go to work. Only 1 question then I guess.

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fa38 posted this 24 April 2014

I hope I don't get yelled at too much for this post, but this thread is a good example of why I hate some threads.  I have to move my bottom cursor for each line left and right to read all that is written on each post if there is a lot of information.  Usually I just give up and ignore the thread. It would be a lot easier to read if what is written, when a large picture is also posted, if the sentences were written with the return/enter key being used to shorten each line.   Like the following.

I hope I don't get yelled at too much for this post, but this thread is a good example of why I hate some threads. I have to move my bottom cursor for each line left and right to read all that is written on each post if there is a lot of information.  Usually I just give up and ignore the thread. It would be a lot easier to read if what is written, when a large picture is also posted, if the sentences were written with the return/enter key being used to shorten each line.

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

Yeah, I don't have any idea how that happened.

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R. Dupraz posted this 24 April 2014

As far as the temperature of the melt goes and not get hung up on the hoopala, is to cast with the melt just hot enough to make good bullets.

A general rule that I have followed for a long while and has always worked.

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

fa38 wrote: I hope I don't get yelled at too much for this post, but this thread is a good example of why I hate some threads.  I have to move my bottom cursor for each line left and right to read all that is written on each post if there is a lot of information.  Usually I just give up and ignore the thread. It would be a lot easier to read if what is written, when a large picture is also posted, if the sentences were written with the return/enter key being used to shorten each line.   Like the following.

I hope I don't get yelled at too much for this post, but this thread is a good example of why I hate some threads. I have to move my bottom cursor for each line left and right to read all that is written on each post if there is a lot of information.  Usually I just give up and ignore the thread. It would be a lot easier to read if what is written, when a large picture is also posted, if the sentences were written with the return/enter key being used to shorten each line. I think I fixed it. I hate doing that too. Thanks for the tip.

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

R. Dupraz wrote: As far as the temperature of the melt goes and not get hung up on the hoopala, is to cast with the melt just hot enough to make good bullets.

A general rule that I have followed for a long while and has always worked. I thought I might be casting too hot. I had just added a bunch of lead to the cold pot and wanted to get it melted quick so I turned it up to 6 on the dial. (Lee 20# bottom pour) It got up over 800. I usually set it between the 2 and 3, closer to 2, and my Lyman thermometer shows it to be around the 700 degree mark. When I turned it back down to 2, the temp never seemed to drop. I guess I could have turned my fan around and let it cool the pot, or just unplugged it for a while. Live and learn, I guess.

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

onondaga wrote: 787.2 degrees F. is the transition point of Zinc where It begins to melt. So, if you run hotter than that Zinc will begin to alloy with the lower melt metals in your pot.

So, melting scrap lower than the transition is safe to keep Zinc from alloying in your pot with scrap. Below 750 would be a very safe line to practice for melting scrap if you have an accurate thermometer and are very familiar with the pot setting that will NOT allow over 750 F. .  Solid Zinc will just float up in melted lead that is 750 Degrees F. This is why I recommend not just turning up your pot all the way to melt scrap. Most lead melting pots easily go over 800 F. if you just turn them up all the way and that 800 + will alloy Zinc into your bullet metal easily.

Gary Ok, I know about the zinc melting temp. I looked it up because I knew it was a bad ingredient. As I said before, I “try” not to get anything but straight lead in there by pinching every one with a pair of dykes. Not to say I didn't pitch one in the wrong pile, but I try not to make that mistake. Also, I use a single burner 1000 watt buffet range to do my smelting. I don't know that the temp can get that high with that unit, but then I've never put the thermometer in the pot for just cleaning up the WW's. So maybe it does, but I'm also right there as it's burning off the junk. As soon as it's molten enough to pour, it goes in the muffin pan. Is there an easy way to test the lead for zinc content?   

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John Alexander posted this 24 April 2014

FA38, I don't think anybody will yell for pointing out a problem.  I don't have to move the cursor. The whole thing shows up on my small screen.

When I type in the little white block to post (as I am doing now) the lines are quite short.   Then when I hit “post reply” it shows up in the thread as very long lines but all there on my computer.  It also shows up with normal paragraph spacings gone unless I remember to double space between paragraphs.  I have cut my lines on this paragraph to see if that helps.   Maybe Mike can give us some guidance about handling this John

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