My new 45 cal 230 grain truncated cone mold

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

Here's a few pics of the new Lee mold results: 

http://s777.photobucket.com/user/csparks1106/media/36069586-15DA-4D0B-AA3B-714045B39796.jpg.html>http://s777.photobucket.com/user/csparks1106/media/AB9BFA60-FA11-4775-BA57-450C2E3D7D7D.jpg.html>

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

http://s777.photobucket.com/user/csparks1106/media/06EA4517-A9DB-4735-A266-60968FD98625.jpg.html>

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold TL452-230 45 ACP, 45 Auto Rim, 45 Colt (Long Colt) (452 Diameter) 230 Grain Tumble Lube 

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onondaga posted this 24 April 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7953>csparks1106

I know you have been trying hard! However your bullets look like your alloy is contaminated with Zinc causing severe surface porosity and you have cold short ripple and low fill-out quality.

These have been sized and checked but you can see the difference in fill-out and surface condition with no Zinc contamination of a certified alloy:

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/AL45RD.jpg.html>

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

I guess maybe that's possible, but I go through every single wheel weight and pinch it with a pair of dykes/side cutters to make sure only lead goes into the mix. I understand that zinc typically shows a blackish residue in the mix. I typically flux after I have added a new ingot. I use a wax that is made for thread cutting and drilling. It comes in a tube like a tube of grease. I just scoop a little out with a small screwdriver, roll it into a little ball and then stir it in with a spoon. After it is done smoking(no flames) I scrape it out and discard it. There is some dark looking crud that I scoop out, but it seems to be minimal. How can I tell if I have zinc or some other issue? Thanks

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onondaga posted this 24 April 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7953>csparks1106

Zinc makes no blackish residue in a melt, it will show up as a thickened glop on the surface of  melt if there is enough of it, but Zinc is silver in color and stays silver in color. It only takes 1/2 of 1% to cause the surface porosity you have. It is hard to cast well with Zinc in an alloy and higher temp helps. But, your casting that well with Zinc in your alloy says that if you had NO zinc that your bullets would be night to day better.

Here is another pic of mine I found that has sharp close-up photography of a zinc free alloy. Compare this to your surfaces:

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/PC250050_zpsdf8b7ee2.jpg.html>

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onondaga posted this 24 April 2014

You would need a professional assay of your alloy to determine the presence and percentage of Zinc, but the surface you are getting on your bullets is a textbook perfect picture of Zinc contamination in a cast  bullet alloy.

I have had the same problem with wheel weight ingots that were free from a friend. I will use the stuff for buckshot casting but won't use it for bullets again.

Here is some bullets on the right that I cast from a Zinc Contaminated alloy. Look closely and note the surface similarity to yours:

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/excessLLA_zpse4413d10.jpg.html>

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tturner53 posted this 24 April 2014

How hot does the alloy have to be to get the floating zinc wheel weight to melt?

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onondaga posted this 24 April 2014

787.2 degrees F. is the transition point of Zinc where It begins to melt. So, if you run hotter than that Zinc will begin to alloy with the lower melt metals in your pot.

So, melting scrap lower than the transition is safe to keep Zinc from alloying in your pot with scrap. Below 750 would be a very safe line to practice for melting scrap if you have an accurate thermometer and are very familiar with the pot setting that will NOT allow over 750 F. .  Solid Zinc will just float up in melted lead that is 750 Degrees F. This is why I recommend not just turning up your pot all the way to melt scrap. Most lead melting pots easily go over 800 F. if you just turn them up all the way and that 800 + will alloy Zinc into your bullet metal easily.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 24 April 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7953>csparks1106

If you are fluxing at a temperature that is not hot enough to flame your flux or  flame a small tightly rolled wand of news paper, your metal is NOT hot enough to flux at all. The black you are getting is from flux that was not hot enough to burn and turn into ash. Black in the pot after fluxing with a petroleum based flux is a clear indication your pot is NOT hot enough to flux. You should have ash, lead oxide Dross and dirt  impurities that easily skim off the surface after fluxing correctly at the right heat.

Burning of the flux is important because the flame deprives the melt surface of Oxygen and that is an important step of fluxing that allows some of the Tin oxide to be harmlessly returned to alloy as Tin into your alloy from what is called “Reduction Fluxing".  Proper fluxing this way aids in lowering Tin loss in addition to cleaning the metal.

Try this and change your habit, you will get better results from your fluxing. Tin Oxide can be rubbed with a spoon into the pot side and down while under an oxygen deprived melt surface and then the tin Oxide will change back to tin and most of it will re-alloy if you keep it rubbed under and stir it back in.

Lead Oxide will not do that but Tin Oxide will. The rubbing separates the Lead Oxide or reduces it from the Tin Oxide and reduces the Tin from the Oxide in an Oxygen deprived melt surface while rubbing.

Dropping wax into a pot and stirring is not fluxing if done at to low a temperature, it is just melting wax and has no effect on cleaning metal or returning the tin from oxide.

Many things can be used for flux successfully. I have used Pine Sawdust, osage sawdust, ground leather, ground charcoal, ground walnut shell, bees wax, candle wax, motor oil. They all will burn, carbonize and turn into ash when used correctly and will create an oxygen deprived melt surface by flame for a short time for reduction fluxing.

Gary

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John Alexander posted this 24 April 2014

   Interesting thread with a lot of good information about a possibility many of us need to look out for as more and more zinc wheelweights turn up in different shapes.

  My reason for writing is to give cpsparks a little good news.  Your bullets will probably shoot fine.  Don't throw your possibly contaminated allow away. If the dimensions of your bullets are right and the hardness is appropriate for your application you won't be able to tell the difference from “perfect” bullets by shooting them.    Even if your were shooting them in a custom built 45ACP benchrest rifle (we had one show up at the CBA nationals one year) I doubt you could tell the difference between your bullets and perfect looking ones if the dimensions and hardness were the same.   My point is to go shoot the bullets and enjoy it.  Don't fuss about the casting or loading and make it so complicated that you spend all your time fiddling with details.  Good results can be achieved by keeping it simple.  Some shooters get so caught up in the details and unproven rules of what you MUST do that it ruins the fun of cast bullet shooting.  When you are up to your rear end in alligators it is hard to remember that you came to drain the swamp.   That is not to say that you shouldn't follow Gary's advice in keeping zinc out of the melt the next time you melt wheelweights.  You can also enjoy improving your casting techniques and the bullets that result without making is complicated ”€œ just don't let it interfere with your shooting.

John

 

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

Here's a close up of some that I picked out this morning. They don't appear to have the same porosity issue. They all came from the same batch. http://s777.photobucket.com/user/csparks1106/media/8A1AD8B3-97BE-41A8-9F90-D9D1E6462B32.jpg.html>

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 24 April 2014

They are well filled out, maybe a little debris in the melt, probably too hot for melt and alloy as they are frosty. Better frosty than undersized by incomplete fillout. Usually, in my experience with scrap alloys, slight zinc contamination will result in undersized castings. If you feel obligated, check the average weight of a few to see if they are close to nominal weight, and do not get too caught up in details at this point.  Go have fun with these.

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

Ok, couple quick questions. Fluxing: Are you supposed to ignite the flux, or should it ignite on its own? I was casting over 775 degrees last night and I'm assuming that should be plenty hot for the fluxing process. I also stir it around, stirring the bottom and all the way through the pot. I haven't intentionally taken the crud and tried to stir it back in, but it was definitely stirred.Whoops, time to go to work. Only 1 question then I guess.

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fa38 posted this 24 April 2014

I hope I don't get yelled at too much for this post, but this thread is a good example of why I hate some threads.  I have to move my bottom cursor for each line left and right to read all that is written on each post if there is a lot of information.  Usually I just give up and ignore the thread. It would be a lot easier to read if what is written, when a large picture is also posted, if the sentences were written with the return/enter key being used to shorten each line.   Like the following.

I hope I don't get yelled at too much for this post, but this thread is a good example of why I hate some threads. I have to move my bottom cursor for each line left and right to read all that is written on each post if there is a lot of information.  Usually I just give up and ignore the thread. It would be a lot easier to read if what is written, when a large picture is also posted, if the sentences were written with the return/enter key being used to shorten each line.

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

Yeah, I don't have any idea how that happened.

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R. Dupraz posted this 24 April 2014

As far as the temperature of the melt goes and not get hung up on the hoopala, is to cast with the melt just hot enough to make good bullets.

A general rule that I have followed for a long while and has always worked.

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

fa38 wrote: I hope I don't get yelled at too much for this post, but this thread is a good example of why I hate some threads.  I have to move my bottom cursor for each line left and right to read all that is written on each post if there is a lot of information.  Usually I just give up and ignore the thread. It would be a lot easier to read if what is written, when a large picture is also posted, if the sentences were written with the return/enter key being used to shorten each line.   Like the following.

I hope I don't get yelled at too much for this post, but this thread is a good example of why I hate some threads. I have to move my bottom cursor for each line left and right to read all that is written on each post if there is a lot of information.  Usually I just give up and ignore the thread. It would be a lot easier to read if what is written, when a large picture is also posted, if the sentences were written with the return/enter key being used to shorten each line. I think I fixed it. I hate doing that too. Thanks for the tip.

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

R. Dupraz wrote: As far as the temperature of the melt goes and not get hung up on the hoopala, is to cast with the melt just hot enough to make good bullets.

A general rule that I have followed for a long while and has always worked. I thought I might be casting too hot. I had just added a bunch of lead to the cold pot and wanted to get it melted quick so I turned it up to 6 on the dial. (Lee 20# bottom pour) It got up over 800. I usually set it between the 2 and 3, closer to 2, and my Lyman thermometer shows it to be around the 700 degree mark. When I turned it back down to 2, the temp never seemed to drop. I guess I could have turned my fan around and let it cool the pot, or just unplugged it for a while. Live and learn, I guess.

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

onondaga wrote: 787.2 degrees F. is the transition point of Zinc where It begins to melt. So, if you run hotter than that Zinc will begin to alloy with the lower melt metals in your pot.

So, melting scrap lower than the transition is safe to keep Zinc from alloying in your pot with scrap. Below 750 would be a very safe line to practice for melting scrap if you have an accurate thermometer and are very familiar with the pot setting that will NOT allow over 750 F. .  Solid Zinc will just float up in melted lead that is 750 Degrees F. This is why I recommend not just turning up your pot all the way to melt scrap. Most lead melting pots easily go over 800 F. if you just turn them up all the way and that 800 + will alloy Zinc into your bullet metal easily.

Gary Ok, I know about the zinc melting temp. I looked it up because I knew it was a bad ingredient. As I said before, I “try” not to get anything but straight lead in there by pinching every one with a pair of dykes. Not to say I didn't pitch one in the wrong pile, but I try not to make that mistake. Also, I use a single burner 1000 watt buffet range to do my smelting. I don't know that the temp can get that high with that unit, but then I've never put the thermometer in the pot for just cleaning up the WW's. So maybe it does, but I'm also right there as it's burning off the junk. As soon as it's molten enough to pour, it goes in the muffin pan. Is there an easy way to test the lead for zinc content?   

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John Alexander posted this 24 April 2014

FA38, I don't think anybody will yell for pointing out a problem.  I don't have to move the cursor. The whole thing shows up on my small screen.

When I type in the little white block to post (as I am doing now) the lines are quite short.   Then when I hit “post reply” it shows up in the thread as very long lines but all there on my computer.  It also shows up with normal paragraph spacings gone unless I remember to double space between paragraphs.  I have cut my lines on this paragraph to see if that helps.   Maybe Mike can give us some guidance about handling this John

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John Alexander posted this 24 April 2014

Hmmm. It didn't work except for the first line ending with short. More thinking. John

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csparks1106 posted this 24 April 2014

John Alexander wrote: FA38, I don't think anybody will yell for pointing out a problem.  I don't have to move the cursor. The whole thing shows up on my small screen.

When I type in the little white block to post (as I am doing now) the lines are quite short.   Then when I hit “post reply” it shows up in the thread as very long lines but all there on my computer.  It also shows up with normal paragraph spacings gone unless I remember to double space between paragraphs.  I have cut my lines on this paragraph to see if that helps.   Maybe Mike can give us some guidance about handling this John John, it was because of my post with the pictures in it. I went in and edited the post and they lined back up.

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onondaga posted this 24 April 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7953>csparks1106

 You pinch and cut for sorting, learning to identify the markings on WW pieces also helps. The thumbnail scratch also helps..you can't scratch Zinc that way.

Additional familiarization with all your pots and what the settings produce in degrees is a good idea.

Your latest picture does not show the classic Zinc contamination or at least a lot less contamination,  the amount of Zinc that will cause poor fill-out and porosity starts at 1/2 to 1% Zinc in the mix, so the change in your bullet textures shows you were wandering in and out of the contamination level with different ingots.

Yes, they will shoot fine and my contaminated bullets shot fine too when they measure correct. Oddly, the porosity actually holds tumble lube better! You can, however get higher and higher with Zinc % that will make you want to just throw  the bullets away because they will come out so bad with really higher Zinc content and measure wrong also. Really high Zinc % in bullets will show as larger porosity bubbles than you have and also as bullets that visibly crack when cooling revealing SpongeBob looking voids.

The scratching and melting temp are the easy ways to control Zinc in your melt. Alloy assay is the next way to tell if it is already there but you will not likely be able to get that done easily or for free. Working on the simple ways yourself is the easiest.

Also you don't have to flame while fluxing, but then it is NOT reduction fluxing with oxygen deprivation of the surface for returning Tin Oxide to Tin back into the alloy. Yes You can light the flux smoke also and that will work easily if the smoke is hot enough. The ignition of flux actually makes the process less stinky and some casters routinely flame the flux just for that reason only with no concern or knowledge of reduction fluxing. It is just a choice, I prefer to conserve Tin and return it as I can when it is there by reduction fluxing.

Note also that the higher your pot temp is also effects the oxidation rate of Tin. Up over 800 degrees F., Tin begins to oxidize at a much higher rate and you will set up a continuous loss of Tin to oxidation  and it will stay lost without correct Reduction fluxing as lower temperature fluxing with no flame will leave the Tin as something you skim off the top of the melt and discard with Dross and dirt.

Gary

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csparks1106 posted this 26 April 2014

http://s777.photobucket.com/user/csparks1106/media/F13EE6CA-469B-43EA-9AF3-AAD9A4F2571F.jpg.html>

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csparks1106 posted this 26 April 2014

As it turns out, the .45's are right, and the .38's are left. I'll get this photo thing figured out eventually. Bear with me.

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Pigslayer posted this 26 April 2014

I say “Shoot 'em!" Here's a close up of some that I picked out this morning. They don't appear to have the same porosity issue. They all came from the same batch. http://s777.photobucket.com/user/csparks1106/media/8A1AD8B3-97BE-41A8-9F90-D9D1E6462B32.jpg.html>

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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csparks1106 posted this 26 April 2014

Oh yeah, we Plan on shooting them.

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onondaga posted this 26 April 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7953>csparks1106

What do you have on those very dark bullets for lube? You have previously asked questions about tumble lube. Those bullets look like they were tumble lubed in the LaBrea Tar pits in California.

If you are tumble lubing and doing that, you have gone way overboard with about 20 times more than needed and I can help and advise you to get 45:45:10 applied clear and non tacky. Just ask.

Gary

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csparks1106 posted this 26 April 2014

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7953>csparks1106

What do you have on those very dark bullets for lube? You have previously asked questions about tumble lube. Those bullets look like they were tumble lubed in the LaBrea Tar pits in California.

If you are tumble lubing and doing that, you have gone way overboard with about 20 times more than needed and I can help and advise you to get 45:45:10 applied clear and non tacky. Just ask.

Gary Ha, it's funny you ask. That is (or at least my version) 45/45/10. I made some up and that's what I used. I thought it looked darker than what everyone was saying.

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onondaga posted this 27 April 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7953>csparks1106

Yours are more than a little dark! Look back at my photo in answer#7 of this post. On the left is a box of Lee 340 gr plain base rifle bullets in 45 cal. Those dark bullets were tumble lubed twice with straight Lee Liquid Alox and they are definitely over lubed. The box on the right is RD 350 gr gas checked bullets. They were tumble lubed once before size/check and twice after...they are lubed correctly with 45:45:10 three times.

Your lube is on so thick that I am concerned you will put yourself on the list of people that can't stand tumble lube, call it very messy to work with, various other nasty names and complain that it slops up their bullet seating dies and smokes so bad when shooting that their vision is blocked!!!!!! You easily have 20 times too much tumble lube on your bullets. Tumble lube is a surface coating. There is no use to keep putting on so much that it fills the lube grooves of bullets. That will not make it work better.

Either formula of tumble lube needs to be the thickness of Hershey syrup, thinner than honey and easily pourable when the consistency is correct at room temperature.. You can add mineral spirits at any time to thin tumble lube and that will not harm it. Get the consistency corrected every time you use it as necessary.

I warm bullets in a brownie pan 5 minutes on warm in the kitchen oven for example. They don't get too hot to touch. I warm the tumble lube in a 4 oz bottle 30 seconds two times in my micro-wave oven. it gets very warm but not too hot to touch.

200 of your warmed pistol bullets in half of a square plastic 1/2 gallon milk carton needs about 1/3 teaspoon or less warmed  tumble lube added before tilting the carton 45 degrees and rotating  for 1 minute by hand. Gently and slowly dump lubed bullets onto wax paper and walk away. the bullets will be ready to load or ready to apply another coat of lube and  be loaded in 10 minutes if you have used warmed bullets and warmed 45:45:10.  Any longer than 10 minutes to dry and either you put way too much on, your lube was too thick or your bullets and lube were not warm enough.

Your bullets look like the lube is way too thick, you put way too much on and it was not warmed lube or warmed bullets.

45:45:10 dries nearly clear with 3 coats done properly as shown in my picture in answer #7 on the previous page showing the RD 350 FNGC bullets lubed 3x and ready to load. I'm directing you to look at the box of bullets on the right side of the picture, they are lubed correctly and look like they have no lube on them at all.

Gary

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Pigslayer posted this 27 April 2014

csparks1106 wrote: Oh yeah, we Plan on shooting them. Bump!

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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csparks1106 posted this 27 April 2014

Gary, the bullets nor the lube was warmed. Just shop room temperature on a 65 degree evening. I'll have to try that with my next batch. I've got them in a cool whip tub awaiting their sizing. Once that's done, I'll work on warming everything up.

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csparks1106 posted this 27 April 2014

I revisited the instructions about making the lube. I heated both the JPW and the LLA at the same time. Don't know if that makes a difference, but not per instructions.

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csparks1106 posted this 29 April 2014

Ok, these aren't the .45's but the .38's, but just wanted y'all to take a look. Working on improving their finish. These were cast at just under 700 degrees. Some of the same ingots and also some new ingots. The ingots may have been cast out of the same batch of WW's, or not. I don't know. Casting cadence: fill mould, count to 15, knock sprue open and tap. Repeat. I was doing it at a count of 10, but it seemed the bullets were a little frosty looking. How do they look?

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onondaga posted this 29 April 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7953>csparks1106

There is a subtle difference between between the appearance of frost from a too high temperature thermodynamic error when casting and the appearance of frost from Zinc contamination.

Look at the last bullet on the right and the 3rd bullet from the right end in your picture. The opacity of the color of the porosity and the appearance of depth in the porosity of those 2 bullets, I would interpret as Zinc contamination from the picture alone and not from temperatures being too high.

Your bullets look great for a newcomer to casting but you still have a bit of zinc in your alloy. These will shoot fine but I hope you get some alloy with zero Zinc,

Gary

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delmarskid1 posted this 02 May 2014

Yup, you have some gudgie in there. They will shoot.

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tomme boy posted this 03 May 2014

You have a high antimony alloy. It is not zinc contaminated. Throw a little tin in there and it will balance the alloy better. Or just shoot them and don't worry about it.

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csparks1106 posted this 03 May 2014

tomme boy wrote: You have a high antimony alloy. It is not zinc contaminated. Throw a little tin in there and it will balance the alloy better. Or just shoot them and don't worry about it.If they are of a high antimony content, it's got to be due to the ww makeup. I haven't added anything to the mix.

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onondaga posted this 03 May 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7953>csparks1106

Don't worry if you have Antimony, it alloys well with Lead and Tin and Antimony does not present as surface porosity the way Zinc does on cast bullets. Antimony can be present in too high of a percentage and cause an appearance like the shapes on flakeboard or groups of crystalline gatherings in geometric shapes on the surface of alloy similar to the appearance of the surface of Galvanized Steel. None of your photos show a high percentage of Antimony.

Bullet casters run into low percentages of Antimony from using range scrap from pistol ranges and rifle ranges when they reclaim lead from jacketed bullets. I regularly do this. Core Lead from jacketed bullets is typically 2% Antimony and 98% Lead, common bird shot and .22 rim fire bullets are generally 2% Antimonial Lead also.  It is a soft alloy, usable as is for muzzle loading round balls and lowest pressure rifle and pistol cast bullet loads. 2% Antimonial scrap lead has a BHN of 6-8.

I also mix an alloy for general recreational use with 7 parts range scrap and 3 parts Linotype and end up with a BHN15 alloy very similar to traditional “Hardball” pistol alloy. My accuracy and velocity tests with my home made Hardball alloy are identical to certified Lyman #2 alloy, but I use the Certified #2 alloy for hunting as it expands, holds together and retains 100% bullet weight on game impact much better than Hardball does because of the 5% Tin, 5% Antimony and 90% Lead in certified Lyman #2 alloy having better malleability without fragmentation for hunting bullets.

Gary

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Pigslayer posted this 03 May 2014

All we're doing is sending lead downrange here. We're not building a piano! You're bullets look good . . . shoot 'em! LOL!!!!

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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