Which is more accurate, cut or button rifling?

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  • Last Post 26 May 2025
Oquawka posted this 23 May 2025

In a  conversation a friend is getting a new barrel and asked which is more accurate,  cut rifling or button rifling.  I'm not sure.  Does anyone have a opinion on this. 

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Aaron posted this 24 May 2025

Oh man. Here we go.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 24 May 2025

Hmmmmm.  that would ASSUME several variables were all the same.

Has the barrel been lapped?

Is it a air-gauged barrel (is it consistent in ID and straightness?)

Shape/form/dimension of the throat?

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Boschloper posted this 24 May 2025

The condition of the hole bored in the blank is way more important than the rifling process.  After the barrel is rifled some quality time with a lead lap will cover a multitude of sins.

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Bud Hyett posted this 24 May 2025

There is no easy answer. Barrel-making is as much art as science. The more effort put into the manufacture, the better the end result. All the above answers verify this. Then you must get the best chamber and work with it. 

I've had Hart, Shilen, Douglas, Krieger, Shiloh Sharps, factory Remington, factory Winchester, factory Savage, factory Mark X, factory Ruger #1, and BSA Martini (.22 Long Rifle) barrels that performed well.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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MP1886 posted this 24 May 2025

Not a pick on anyone, but air gauging is obsolete althought it's still used.  There are precision instruments for measuring everything inside a rifle bore such as bore diameter, groove diameter, and more. It can do so way out in the tenths of a thousandths. It can do it along the entire length of the bore and also put it on a video. Don't get me wrong an air gauged barrel can improve the accuracy of the barrel when they gauge them and sort them, but no ways as close at the instrument I'm talking about. I believe if I spell it right its Ditech. 

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pat i posted this 24 May 2025

Is cut or button more accurate? I think it depends on the shooters ability to shoot and read the wind. Put the best cut or button barrel in my rifle competing against a guy like Tony Boyer and he'd beat me with a piece of conduit duct taped to his action.

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pat i posted this 24 May 2025

Not a pick on anyone, but air gauging is obsolete althought it's still used.  There are precision instruments for measuring everything inside a rifle bore such as bore diameter, groove diameter, and more. It can do so way out in the tenths of a thousandths. It can do it along the entire length of the bore and also put it on a video. Don't get me wrong an air gauged barrel can improve the accuracy of the barrel when they gauge them and sort them, but no ways as close at the instrument I'm talking about. I believe if I spell it right its Ditech. 

I don't know what type of measuring device you're talking about but Shilen claims their select match barrels are air gauged .ooo1 from end to end and Im sure the other top notch barrel makers say the same. That's one 10,000 of an inch. I doubt any barrel maker is investing in a machine that's going to measure within .100,000 or 1 millionth of an inch or if it woukd make a diferrence.. When you post things like that this I need proof.

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linoww posted this 24 May 2025

I think barrel maker and champion high piwder shooter John Benjamin in Portland Oregon had a guage  for measuring twist rate uniformity. A friend of mine told me he had another gauge and he would run it down the barrel and then he would have somebody hold their hand in the barrel for a little bit of time and run it through again and it would pick up the variation from the heat of the hand.

This was more than twenty five years ago and he was kind of an odd duck and i'm not sure if he was pulling my leg or not.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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pat i posted this 24 May 2025

I think you need 10 points to be listed in the NBRSA hall of fame. Tony Boyer had 176 ponts last time I checked and leads the pack which leads me to believe he knew a little bit about shooting. And he did it with air gauged barrels. I don't know anything about Benjamin biut I doubt he had anything that could could measure anything over a tenth on a barrel end to end. And even that would be cost prohibitive for the common man. 1/10,000 is pretty small.

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4and1 posted this 24 May 2025

Every premium barrel maker makes great barrels, and makes not so great barrels. If any person came up with a positive method of determining the difference between a "hummer" barrel and a "normal" barrel, they wouldn't have to work another day of their life. A great barrel is where you find it.

And the barrel alone does not make a great shooter. The action, ignition system, stock/bedding etc. all contribute to an accurate rifle. 

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Aaron posted this 24 May 2025

To answer your question, 9 out of 10 shooters prefer cut rifling over anything else. That's a fact.

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Premod70 posted this 24 May 2025

At one time a buttoned barrel was the way to go for top accuracy but that was mostly dependent on the quality/machinablity of the steel. Today the cut barrels have as good a steel and positivity of dimensional stability the button can't match. Be warned though the cut method is an art and there are no cheap good shooting barrels being cut.

Dale Flinchum

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MP1886 posted this 24 May 2025

Not a pick on anyone, but air gauging is obsolete althought it's still used.  There are precision instruments for measuring everything inside a rifle bore such as bore diameter, groove diameter, and more. It can do so way out in the tenths of a thousandths. It can do it along the entire length of the bore and also put it on a video. Don't get me wrong an air gauged barrel can improve the accuracy of the barrel when they gauge them and sort them, but no ways as close at the instrument I'm talking about. I believe if I spell it right its Ditech. 

I don't know what type of measuring device you're talking about but Shilen claims their select match barrels are air gauged .ooo1 from end to end and Im sure the other top notch barrel makers say the same. That's one 10,000 of an inch. I doubt any barrel maker is investing in a machine that's going to measure within .100,000 or 1 millionth of an inch or if it woukd make a diferrence.. When you post things like that this I need proof.
I'm glad you believe that crap Pat because it isn't true. I'm not going into a lengthly tutorial about air gauging, but apparently you're not aware of how it works, really works. Companies are switching to the new measuring equipment because they realize that they have been making bore and groove dimensions to incorrect sizes for decades.  Another inaccurate old measuring method are pin gauges. Let me give you one tip on a pin gauge. Do you realize by holding it in your fingers that your body heat has expanded it?

We have both. We don’t use the air that much and only when required by the govt for inspection.

The difference in readings between the air and mechanical is .0001” at most. The air reads the low spots the mechanical the high. Its easier for the average person to use the air to get a reading but you can easily move the wand and change the reading by an easy .0002”. Also what we don’t like about the air gauge probes is they can scratch the bore of the barrel.

Air gauges are caliber, number of grooves and twist specific. You need a wand for the bore and one for the groove and two master ring gauges for each.

The mechanicals will be number of grooves specific like a 5R vs a 4 groove but they are not twist specific. So for. 30cal for example I can check a 8 twist barrel or a 11.25 or a 12 o a 10 or a 9.35 etc….gauge tip doesn’t care.

Air gauges don’t guarantee a better barrel. That’s BS! It’s pushed as a marketing tool by some.  BTW that's from Bartleinbarrels. 

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pat i posted this 24 May 2025

Another medal to pin on your chest......Barrel Manufacturing Expert. Where did you get that Bartlein barrel quote from or is he another one of your friends.

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MP1886 posted this 24 May 2025

I don't know what your problem is Pat.  I'm trying to teach all members something that maybe, just maybe, they don't know and I do. The Bartlein quote from Frank who works there.  The "another one of my friends" quote isn't funny because I happen to know a LOT of people. I get around and I ask questions. That is how you learn things you don't know is to ask questions. If the person you are asking is decent enough, and if it's not proprietary information, they will often answer the question. 

Pat thing about this. All barrel bores are not perfect. I mean that many you can see reamer marks. So if a barrel has reamer marks is air gauging accurate then?????

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Aaron posted this 24 May 2025

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Oquawka posted this 24 May 2025

MP1886, you mentioned reamer marks in the  barrel.  Is that from boring the barrel originally or from cutting the rifling?

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4and1 posted this 24 May 2025

An experienced lapping man can feel .0001" in the barrel. 

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pat i posted this 24 May 2025

Pat thing about this. All barrel bores are not perfect. I mean that many you can see reamer marks. So if a barrel has reamer marks is air gauging accurate then?????

I see reamer marks in a 450 dollar custom barrel how accurate an air gauge is would be the last thing I'd be worried about.

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MP1886 posted this 24 May 2025

Pat thing about this. All barrel bores are not perfect. I mean that many you can see reamer marks. So if a barrel has reamer marks is air gauging accurate then?????

I see reamer marks in a 450 dollar custom barrel how accurate an air gauge is would be the last thing I'd be worried about.
Now you are not worried about air gauged, but in your previous post you elected to debate and argue with it.  Perhaps you found out that I know more about it than you, heh 

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