BPCR With PP Bullet

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Aaron posted this 3 weeks ago

I purposefully used the title to draw the eye of those among us who shoot Paper Patched bullets in their BP rifles either for competitive shooting or hunting. I have searched the forum for discussions regarding paper patching and the results were interesting to say the least. A lot of myths regarding the use of PP bullets were promulgated here as well. Having grown my library reading the published literature regarding the use and rolling of PP bullets, especially the tomes of Paul Matthews, and having "rolled my own" and shot them now for 5 years, I have an understanding of the making and use of the PP bullets in my 1885 High Wall as well as the Sharps rifles. I can alter the seating depth of the bullet to make them cycle in an 1886, but they work best in that rifle as a single feed directly into the chamber. Know however that use in the 1886 was an experiment, not a steady diet for that rifle.

There are two ways to go with a PP bullet - either Bore size or Groove size. Groove size necessitates a shorter O.A.L. and therefore a deeper seated bullet with the associated loss of cartridge case volume and powder space (a lower powder volume and less velocity). Groove size products can utilize either black powder or smokeless powder to launch the bullet. Both have their upsides as well as their pitfalls.

Bore size PP bullets REQUIRE the use of black powder and its associated burn characteristics to "bump up" the bullet at shot start and obturate the bore and take the rifling. The bullet actually swells up from the top down as physics take over and the bullet gets shoved up into itself from inertial laws. (The base starts moving into the non-moving tip and expansion occurs)

Smokeless propellant, with its slower pressure buildup, will not expand the pure lead bore-size bullet properly into the available windage, and accuracy will suffer. Bore size bullets made with anything other than pure lead will likewise fail to expand due to their hardness. Only pure lead bullets will suffice for bore sized products. The bullets used for my 45 caliber rifles are .442" in diameter and when wrapped are .449" in their final diameter. They do, in fact, obturate up to groove diameter, if and only if black powder is used to launch them.

I would like to ask anyone on this forum who shoots Bore Sized PP bullets in their BPCR if they have tried a BP substitute like Pyrodex or MP-Black if it works like BP to obturate the bullet. Since these propellants are basically smokeless powders made to stink and leave black fouling all over the place, I don't see how they can emulate the actual burn characteristics of BP which is a Class-A explosive.

I can't seem to find any published information regarding this from any of the works available by respected authors or industry experts. I am sure that theory abounds but actual data would be welcome. I have tried it but my results (at 100 yards) were not definitive. Of course old eyes and open sights probably had more input into the target than the propellant used. sealed

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Aaron posted this 3 weeks ago

I may have answered my question above but would like to know if anyone has useful data to address the question posed.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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beltfed posted this 3 weeks ago

Aaron

I realize you were specific on respondants re  BORE SIZE PP bullets.

But, Your challenge would be Much easier if you went to  Dual Diameter PP bullets

Base/major diameter patches to GROOVE and Body diameter patches to bore.

No worry with any powder since the base does not have to bump up.

You mention shooting with your '86 Win. I can tell  you my DDEPP bullets shoot just fine thru the magazine. Also,

beltfed/arnie

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Aaron posted this 3 weeks ago

Appreciate the comment. I am patching to bore to take advantage of all the available case volume for powder. That bullet is probably already halfway down the barrel.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Aaron posted this 3 weeks ago

Oh and…. The High Wall likes the bore sized PP bullets over the groove size PP bullets. With the length of the 530hr bullets, slumping can be an issue.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Tom Acheson posted this 3 weeks ago

Might be helpful, might not.

My CSA in 40 cal. 2 1/2 aka 40-70 SS, has only seen BP since I bought it in 2009.

I play with (2) bullets. A Paul Jones greaser “Money” 416-gr. The other a Brooks slug for PP, 412-gr. So far the PP is working OK. But it took awhile to get the PP work to come out good, and not come apart while seating the bullet.

I have several of the Paul Matthews books and they are helpful,

Reading the Shiloh Rifle forum taught me much more about BPCR activities than the CBA forum. The ASSRA forum is helpful also.

Tom

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Aaron posted this 3 weeks ago

Thanks Tom. Any use of bore size pills and BP subs?

I agree with you. Patience and practice is required to get things running right but boy once they are, it’s magic.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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steveu posted this 3 weeks ago

I shoot a ddpp that beltfed designed for my 40-65 and I can get 70 grains of 1.5fg in the case. Cheers, Steve

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Tom Acheson posted this 3 weeks ago

Aaron,

Never have used BP substitutes. Bore size wrapped bullet. After wrapping, run the bullet through a 0.410 cb sizing die with SPG lube in it. The lube just “glues” the wrap to itself and helps the bullet survive handling until it comes to rest in the case.

I’m guessing that in the late 1880’s Schuetzen shooters were breech seating BP rounds. Maybe someday….

Tom

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Aaron posted this 3 weeks ago

Tom,

I am shooting dry patches. Does your method constitute lubing the patch or do you and others put lube on the exposed patch prior to shooting?

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Tom Acheson posted this 3 weeks ago

Aaron,

The patch is wrapped onto the slug dry. After that it goes through the cb sizing die. The exterior dimension of the wrapped bullet is not changed by the die. But a small amount of SPG lube is “smeared” onto the exterior of the bullet. This helps the patch exterior stick to itself and then seating the bullet into the case, works OK. I actually screw the bullet into the case until stops against the poly or veggie wad that was compressed upon the powder.

Tom

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