Picked up an older 110e savage in 223 cal. I want to use this for cast bullets only. Not sure what the twist is yet. My question for you guys with more years of experience is what is the ideal twist for 55,to 60 grain bullets.. just in case I might want to rebarrel it.. thanks..johnny
Barrel 223 twist for cast bullets
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- Last Post 11 March 2024
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2frogs just cast and shoot the damned thing and don't get lost in all the mental masturbation filling this thread. Good God I don't how how I ever got a rifle to shoot before forums told me everything I was doing is wrong.
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To the OP’s question; it is not bullet weight but length that determines rate of twist. Find the length and use Greenhill’s formula to find the optimum twist but remember a fast twist can always be used but too little is certain failure.
Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.
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I have bought several Savage M12 223 rifles starting in 2000 and all have had 1- 9" twists that would stabilize the .9" long 85 grain bullet I use a lot.
In my, not always humble, opinion, worrying about the twist being too fast is wasted time unless you are averaging .25 moa or less (and no CB shooter is).
The Savage rifles mentioned above with 9" twists would all shoot the common 40 to 55 grain (438, 415, etc.) bullets as well as my 1 in 14" twist 222s. I know some theories would make you think otherwise but that is my actual experience by shooting thousands of them in matches and in-between. Stop worrying about twist, if it is enough to stabilize, and worry about fit.
John
Amen John, that's what I've been saying for many years. Glad you posted it.
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"In my, not always humble, opinion, worrying about the twist being too fast is wasted time unless you are averaging .25 moa or less (and no CB shooter is).
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I have bought several Savage M12 223 rifles starting in 2000 and all have had 1- 9" twists that would stabilize the .9" long 85 grain bullet I use a lot.
In my, not always humble, opinion, worrying about the twist being too fast is wasted time unless you are averaging .25 moa or less (and no CB shooter is).
The Savage rifles mentioned above with 9" twists would all shoot the common 40 to 55 grain (438, 415, etc.) bullets as well as my 1 in 14" twist 222s. I know some theories would make you think otherwise but that is my actual experience by shooting thousands of them in matches and in-between. Stop worrying about twist, if it is enough to stabilize, and worry about fit.
John
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Not a .223 but close....a .22 BR. When I ordered the Lilja barrel, I considered either a 8 and 9 twist (3-groove, chrome moly). I'm using an NOE 80-grain bullet. I chose 1:8 twist believing it would be as good as a 9 and maybe someday I might find a slightly longer bullet, so the 8 might be helpful.
Tom
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14 twist is definite not fast enought for the longer heavier bullet especially if the bullet profile make it long. Actually if the alloy is correct, the bullet fits the throat and bore well, and the bullet isn't pushed past what the alloy will stand, and most importantly, if the bullet enters the bore/groove straight all the twists will shoot. The harder to get to shoot is of course the 7 twist because everything has to be perfect because the higher rpm with amplify all errors and defects with the bullet. I don't want to put a specific twist here, but leaning towards a 12. I like the 9 twist too, too bad they don't have a 10 twist as a standard one. There are two bullets out there, one called the 224 NATO at about 62 grains and the Heavy Nato at about 70 some grains, that would definitely require a faster twist then 14 for sure. With those I believe I'd go with a 9 twist. All depends how ong your bullet is that you are going to shoot. Twist is figured on the length of the bullet not the weight and that confuses people because we all know the heavier a bullet the longer the bullet is. Now there is something that can change that. Before all these new fangled twist in the .224 caliber barrels, mainly AR's, most were 14 twist for jacketed. Take the 22-250. Well some shooters wanted to shoot a heavier bullet from those and it wouldn't stabilize them so Sierra came out with a 63 grain semi point jacketed bullet. Being a little shorter because of a semi point being shorter then a pointed bullet enabled it to perform in almost all 14 twist. Now a good friend of mine had a Ruger Varminter in 22-250 that threw those semi points almost sideways. He gave me the rest to shoot from a 7 twist AR15. Basically the slowest twist that will stabilize the bullet will be the EASIEST to get so shoot. That's it in a nutshell.
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I have a Encore 223 pro hunter 28" with a 1 in 12 twist that does good with the 70 gr bullets pushing them somewhere around 1700 fps.
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No one is "overboard" or "wrong" on fast twist barrels with cast bullets.
The OP, 2frogs, asked a simple question; "My question for you guys with more years of experience is what is the ideal twist for 55,to 60 grain bullets.. just in case I might want to rebarrel it."
Understanding the effects, good and bad, of how the twist of the barrel effects casts bullets is not "negatism", it is knowledge. It is the furtherance of such knowledge that is one of the aims of this forum, if I am not mistaken?
It is common knowledge a specific length of a bullet at specific velocity will perform best (as in accuracy capability) in a specific twist barrel given good quality of all. Thus, for best accuracy with a cast bullet, we can adjust the velocity level to the twist rate of a given twist barrel such as is on 2frogs M110. Or, if he is going to rebarrel, he then has the option of adjusting the twist by selection to match specific cast bullets for best accuracy potential. So, we see, 2frogs is asking if he rebarrels what would be an "ideal" twist. He is not asking what is best for the current barrel is he.......
Now, to further answer 2 frogs question without any "negatism" toward any concept or other members here let me add my opinion, especially since I don't claim to cast "a perfect" bullet. For the last 50 years +/- [not sure that is "more years of experience" as 2frogs asks for but is what I have to base and opinion on] experience casting 22 cal bullets for and loading in 223 Rem chambered rifles. Those numerous rifles have had twists of 7, 8, 9, 10, 11.5, 12 and 14 inches. Over the years i have used and thoroughly tested numerous different styles of 22 caliber cast bullets some of which I no longer have. I currently have 223 Rem chambered rifles with 8, 9, 11.5, 12 and 14" twist barrels. I currently have the following moulds and have tested them in the 223 chambered rifles; 225107, 225438, 225415, 225462 and the MP 227-65.
Now, in my humble experience were I to rebarrel any action for a 223 chamber I've found the "ideal" twist barrel to give the best accuracy over a range of velocity from 1400 upward of 2200 fps with 50 to 60 gr cast bullets and at full velocity potential with jacketed bullets [2frogs didn't say which] is a 12" twist. That will give the best stability and accuracy out to longer ranges than 100 yards. Now, for John and MP1886s edification, that is not saying an 8" twist 223 chambered barrel isn't capable of giving the same level of accuracy with either cast or jacketed because it is. However, with jacketed bullets the same velocity levels with pretty much equal accuracy are obtainable but with cast bullets in the faster 8" twist the velocity levels for best accuracy drops down to the 1200 - 1600 fps range.
BTW, MP1886 continuously states or insinuates, even though I've corrected him numerous times, I don't think fast twist are accurate. Fact is I just last month set the current record at our local club for the 400 aggregate 300 yard F Class match. I shot a 400 with 35 Xs using an 8" twist 223 chambered rifle. Kind of belies MP1886s mistaken belief.....that and the fact I shoot a heck of a lot more cast bullets through standard twist rifles than I do through rebarreled rifles with slower than standard twists.
LMG
Concealment is not cover.........
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The information in www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm is good but it is far from complete. Along with reading that i would refer you to The Metallurgy of Molten Lead Alloys by Denis Marshall in Lyman's CBH #3 and The Metallurgy of Cast Bullets by Robert J. Block, PH.D., P.E. in Lyman's CBH #4. Those two writings, while somewhat technical and, perhaps a bit dry, will give a much better understanding of alloy metallurgy commonly used in ternary cast bullets. In those you will find a balance of antimony to tin upwards of 5% each is very beneficial to casting excellent bullets, especially for those for target shooting. Up to 5% of the total of antimony and tin to the remaining 90% lead in #2 alloy is not "too much".
Cast bullets of #2 alloy will have a BHN, when air cooled, of 15 - 16 after 10 - 15 days. When cast with an alloy temp of 710 - 725 degrees and immediately water quenched the BHN, within 24 hours will equal that of linotype at 20 - 21. Actual heat treating can raise the BHN up to 27 - 28 if desired.
The 225462 #2 alloy bullets drop from my mould at .226+. I GC them with a .225 H&I die in a 450 lubrasizer using the GC seating tool so only the GC is crimped on. I then lube only the GC'd bullets in a .227 H&I sizer with 2500+ lube. That essentially leaves them "as cast" for loading and shooting.
LMG
Concealment is not cover.........
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The 62 LBT is completely different bullet than the Mihec. I have both.
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oh oh ... could there possibly be a 22 cal cast only grudge match coming up ?? ... hey I have a Ruger 77 22 Hornet I plink with ... never tried for top accuracy ... hmmmm ...
of course John Alexander would be match director and so would naturally not be allowed to enter his Tikka from God .
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i might need a handicap ... every time i measure my 1 inch groups they turn out to be 2 inches ...
ken
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2frogs just cast and shoot the damned thing and don't get lost in all the mental masturbation filling this thread. Good God I don't how how I ever got a rifle to shoot before forums told me everything I was doing is wrong.
I agree with you 100 % and it isn't me doing the masturbation.
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Getting back to the original topic if I was going to barrel a 22 cal exclusively for 55 or 60 grain bullets I'd go with a 12 twist or maybe a 10 to give me little leeway in case I wanted to shoot a longer heavier bullet down the road. As for losing friends from shooting matches. I've shot matches from coast to coast and almost border to border and never lost a friend. In fact I always made one or more new ones. Maybe being face to face and your results in black and white for all to see brings out the best in people. If someone stopped being your friend because you bested them in a stupid shooting match they were never your friend in the first place as far as I'm concerned.
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not sure what quickest twist might be ... but 14 twist I think is not quite fast enough for 55-60 gr., even round nose Loverin design ones, at 1400 fps. ... maybe 2200 and up ?
back when I was trying to get my 222 to mostly shoot under 1.5 moa ... i got there most often with a Loverin 225438 .. 44 grain ... i was frustrated with the 225462 ... i just knew it was a better bullet, but at least up to 1800 fps It was inconsistent and bullet holes were sometimes oblong.
... also In my rifle, both above bullet noses were a tad too small for my lands ... i wound up with the 438 ... several thousand of them .. with 2400 and 4227 ... better than Unique ... geeze, 20 rounds for a buck ...
still smarting from that old defeat, today I would bump .. and squeeze ... the nose and front band of the 55 gr to be snug in the throat/leade ... the range of needed twist is fairly wide and perfect bullets and chambers are less twist sensitive . ... and, dangit ... all the match 22 barrels in my collection are 14 twist ...
anybody interested in a takeoff but nice 14 twist shilen varmint SS in 220 Swift .. for remmy 700 ? .. I am looking for a sporter 357 barrel to build a 35 Whelen ...
ken
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First I would figure what twist you have. Your barrel could be broke in just enough to shoot cast, such as a little throat erosion can be good for cast. I have have had good success with 1/12 twist and bumped bullets. My favorite as cast 22 cal bullet is the 62 grain lbt and soft alloy.
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I really appreciate your post. It explains a lot to me. First thing I'll do is measure the twist in it just to be sure.. thanks again.. johnny
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I'm going to say that Savage is either a 12 or 14 twist. If it's a 12 you should try it before you go through the hassle of getting another barrel. I just may suprise you.
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2frogs
If you intend on velocities down in the 1400 fps +/- area as do some then a 12" or faster twist would probably serve best. However, I've shot numerous 14" twist 22 H, 222s, 223s and 22-250s That do just fine with 50 - 60 gr cast bullets in the 1700 - 2100+ fps range. Now the 16" twist Hornets are another story. With those the lighter 225438 that worked best for Ken will work best.
Agree with MP1886, it's probably a 12 pr 14" twist. Best to measure it though.
LMG
Concealment is not cover.........
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The lbt bullet has a long bearing surface and should be sized so that it chambers with resistance without being pushed back into case. The softer alloys help with clambering. This bullet is no longer made, but NOE should be able to copy this and other lbt designs.
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