Barrel 223 twist for cast bullets

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  • Last Post 11 March 2024
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2frogs posted this 12 January 2024

Picked up an older 110e savage in 223 cal. I want to use this for cast bullets only. Not sure what the twist is yet. My question for you guys with more years of experience is what is the ideal twist for 55,to 60 grain bullets.. just in case I might want to rebarrel it.. thanks..johnny

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2frogs posted this 11 March 2024

I got a 225462 single cavity mold to try now. Any recommendations on loads for it. My alloy is approximately bhn of 9..I going to lube and gas check sized 225.. low velocity as well. With 700x,wst,tightgroup. Thanks for advice...2frogs

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Premod70 posted this 27 February 2024

To the OP’s question; it is not bullet weight but length that determines rate of twist. Find the length and use Greenhill’s formula to find the optimum twist but remember a fast twist can always be used but too little is certain failure.

Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.

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pat i. posted this 27 February 2024

Sorry for intruding into your thread John. Let's return to the regularly scheduled program. I have a thread about my latest adventure with pb bullets to cover my results already going.

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pat i. posted this 27 February 2024

Pat put a freechex on them. They don't require a gascheck shank like a real gascheck does. Work fine for your velocities. 

Thanks for the suggestion but if I wanted to go that route I'd just pick one of my gas check shank molds and have at it since it wouldnt be a plain base bullet anymore. Sometimes in life the journey is a lot more fun that the destination and in my case this is one of those times, as aggravating as it is sometimes.

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MP1886 posted this 27 February 2024

I'm working with plain base now. Powder coated...
Hopefully I don't see you on the road to perdition I've been traveling for the last few years with plain base bullets. Keep me informed on your plain base project. Maybe you'll discover something successful I never thought of.
Pat put a freechex on them. They don't require a gascheck shank like a real gascheck does. Work fine for your velocities. 

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pat i. posted this 27 February 2024

I'm working with plain base now. Powder coated...

Hopefully I don't see you on the road to perdition I've been traveling for the last few years with plain base bullets. Keep me informed on your plain base project. Maybe you'll discover something successful I never thought of.

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2frogs posted this 27 February 2024

Need to replace the trigger in this 110. The pull is terrible. I think it's a good shooter but will be better with the new trigger.. I certainly appreciate all of the repairs. I'm working with plain base now. Powder coated...

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pat i. posted this 19 January 2024

But a lot more painful. We all have different experiences shooting so base my opinions on my own experience and what successful shooters are doing.

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MP1886 posted this 19 January 2024

Getting back to the original topic if I was going to barrel a 22 cal exclusively for 55 or 60 grain bullets I'd go with a 12 twist or maybe a 10 to give me little leeway in case I wanted to shoot a longer heavier bullet down the road. As for losing friends from shooting matches. I've shot matches from coast to coast and almost border to border and never lost a friend. In fact I always made one or more new ones. Maybe being face to face and your results in black and white for all to see brings out the best in people. If someone stopped being your friend because you bested them in a stupid shooting match they were never your friend in the first place as far as I'm concerned.
Cast bullets, in my opinion respond to barrel twist differently then jacketed. That is longer cast bullets seem to tolerate slower twist. Don't know what that is. 
Far as the matches Pat, would be better to set up a boxing match. Much faster that way. 

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pat i. posted this 19 January 2024

Getting back to the original topic if I was going to barrel a 22 cal exclusively for 55 or 60 grain bullets I'd go with a 12 twist or maybe a 10 to give me little leeway in case I wanted to shoot a longer heavier bullet down the road. As for losing friends from shooting matches. I've shot matches from coast to coast and almost border to border and never lost a friend. In fact I always made one or more new ones. Maybe being face to face and your results in black and white for all to see brings out the best in people. If someone stopped being your friend because you bested them in a stupid shooting match they were never your friend in the first place as far as I'm concerned.

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MP1886 posted this 19 January 2024

oh oh ... could there possibly be a 22 cal cast only grudge match coming up ?? ...   hey I have a  Ruger 77 22 Hornet I plink with ... never tried for top accuracy ...  hmmmm ...  

of course John Alexander would be match director and so would naturally not be allowed to enter his Tikka from God .  cool

*****************

i might need a handicap ... every time i measure my 1 inch groups they turn out to be 2 inches ...  

ken

 

I have a rule to never get into a match with friends, they may end up enemies. 

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MP1886 posted this 19 January 2024

2frogs just cast and shoot the damned thing and don't get lost in all the mental masturbation filling this thread. Good God I don't how how I ever got a rifle to shoot before forums told me everything I was doing is wrong.
I agree with you 100 % and it isn't me doing the masturbation. 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 19 January 2024

oh oh ... could there possibly be a 22 cal cast only grudge match coming up ?? ...   hey I have a  Ruger 77 22 Hornet I plink with ... never tried for top accuracy ...  hmmmm ...  

of course John Alexander would be match director and so would naturally not be allowed to enter his Tikka from God .  cool

*****************

i might need a handicap ... every time i measure my 1 inch groups they turn out to be 2 inches ...  

ken

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pat i. posted this 19 January 2024

2frogs just cast and shoot the damned thing and don't get lost in all the mental masturbation filling this thread. Good God I don't how how I ever got a rifle to shoot before forums told me everything I was doing is wrong.

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MP1886 posted this 19 January 2024

The information in www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm is good but it is far from complete.  Along with reading that i would refer you to The Metallurgy of Molten Lead Alloys by Denis Marshall in Lyman's CBH #3 and The Metallurgy of Cast Bullets by Robert J. Block, PH.D., P.E. in Lyman's CBH #4.  Those two writings, while somewhat technical and, perhaps a bit dry, will give a much better understanding of alloy metallurgy commonly used in ternary cast bullets.   In those you will find a balance of antimony to tin upwards of 5% each is very beneficial to casting excellent bullets, especially for those for target shooting.  Up to 5% of the total of antimony and tin to the remaining 90% lead in #2 alloy is not "too much". 

Cast bullets of #2 alloy will have a BHN, when air cooled, of 15 - 16 after 10 - 15 days.  When cast with an alloy temp of 710 - 725 degrees and immediately water quenched the BHN, within 24 hours will equal that of linotype at 20 - 21.  Actual heat treating can raise the BHN up to 27 - 28 if desired.

The 225462 #2 alloy bullets drop from my mould at .226+.  I GC them with a .225 H&I die in a 450 lubrasizer using the GC seating tool so only the GC is crimped on.  I then lube only the GC'd bullets in a .227 H&I sizer with 2500+ lube.  That essentially leaves them "as cast" for loading and shooting. 

LMG 

 

That's correct about a balanced alloy.  Lasc is a good place for a beginner to start. I believe your trouble is you put either too much tin in, or tin in the areas it doesn't need it. Too much tin is just as bad as not enough tin. 

You see the description of Antimony: a silvery white metal that is very brittle and hard? Well those jagged edges of it are what eat up your barrel throats when shooting very high velocity

Let 2frogs read, search, look around and make up his own mine rather then trying him to use what you want him too. I'm not telling him anything like that.  Maybe he could go the library and read those books you mentioned. One of my best friends is a geophysicist, geologist, metalurgist, and his college education states him as a scientist. I don't believe, I know he knows more about lead and alloys more then the both of us put together. Did you know there is a way to harden lead without alloys?

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OU812 posted this 19 January 2024

The 62 LBT is completely different bullet than the Mihec. I have both.

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Larry Gibson posted this 19 January 2024

The information in www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm is good but it is far from complete.  Along with reading that i would refer you to The Metallurgy of Molten Lead Alloys by Denis Marshall in Lyman's CBH #3 and The Metallurgy of Cast Bullets by Robert J. Block, PH.D., P.E. in Lyman's CBH #4.  Those two writings, while somewhat technical and, perhaps a bit dry, will give a much better understanding of alloy metallurgy commonly used in ternary cast bullets.   In those you will find a balance of antimony to tin upwards of 5% each is very beneficial to casting excellent bullets, especially for those for target shooting.  Up to 5% of the total of antimony and tin to the remaining 90% lead in #2 alloy is not "too much". 

Cast bullets of #2 alloy will have a BHN, when air cooled, of 15 - 16 after 10 - 15 days.  When cast with an alloy temp of 710 - 725 degrees and immediately water quenched the BHN, within 24 hours will equal that of linotype at 20 - 21.  Actual heat treating can raise the BHN up to 27 - 28 if desired.

The 225462 #2 alloy bullets drop from my mould at .226+.  I GC them with a .225 H&I die in a 450 lubrasizer using the GC seating tool so only the GC is crimped on.  I then lube only the GC'd bullets in a .227 H&I sizer with 2500+ lube.  That essentially leaves them "as cast" for loading and shooting. 

LMG 

Concealment is not cover.........

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MP1886 posted this 19 January 2024

Too much tin does not let the Antimony work correctly and thats a fact. Too much tin will also cause leading. 

2frogs go to this site to get the real scoop on all the alloys, how to use them and how to mix them.

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

 

 

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Larry Gibson posted this 19 January 2024

"2frogs posted this 4 hours ago

I suppose only target shooting or varmints. I just like playing around with the cast bullets. My mold is only single cavity but I don't mind that. Just waiting for warmer weather. First thing is to get all the copper removed.. .. thanks for all the replies. Probably use linotype and lead mix..not sure.. Johnny"   My 225462 is a double cavity but I've numerous single cavity moulds and since i enjoy casting I don't mind using them.  I most often use a couple moulds at the same time. but with the smaller 22 cals it's hard to keep the moulds up to temp that way.  With the single cavity 225462 you should be able to cast as fast as the sprue hardening will let you w/o overheating the mould.   Since you have the linotype and lead to mix, I suggest adding some tin also to make #2 alloy.  It will be a much better alloy that will have the antimony and tin balanced out forming the sub metal SbSn which will stay in solution in the lead.  Just mixing lead with the linotype dilutes both the antimony and tin but still leaves the alloy antimony rich.  The antimony not in solution with the tin as SbSn will harden first before the rest of the alloy and will leave frost spots on/in the bullet of antimony.  Since antimony is lighter than the alloy that unbalances the bullet.  Best to have equal parts of antimony and tin up to 5% with the lead....that is #2 alloy.  For #2 alloy mix 4.5 lbs of linotype with 5 lbs of pure lead and add 1/2 lb (8 ounces) of tin.  You'll be amazed at the quality of cast bullets you get with #2 alloy. LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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MP1886 posted this 19 January 2024

i have shot lots of different bullets in my 1/12 twist remingtons and the most consistant in accuracy was the LBT 62 grain and the modified and bumped 80 NOE bullet using soft alloy and Titegroup powder. I never had good performance using other moulds and i have a few for sale...lots of moulds for sale.

 

I have the original 62 grain bullet mold you speak of designed by 45 2.1 and made my Mihec mold company. Noe copied it, but that's another story.  Unfortunately this bullet won't fit my Winchester Model 70 Varminter with a heavy barrel 223 that actually had the 223 chamber not the NATO chamber, which many companies are doing and not really telling you so you have no problems shooting commercial 223 and 5.56 NATO ammo. The bullet is too long and the nose too fact for my Winchester chamber and I'm not going to mess around trying to jury rig the bullet when I have others that fit, but I would love to see how it would do if it did fit. 45 2.1 named that bullet the 22 NATO or something like that. He designed it after getting a bunch of chamber throat cast from many rifles to assure he design it correctly which he did. That heavier bullet that NOE also copied is 45 2.1's Heavy Nato.

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