9mm twist question

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delmarskid posted this 02 October 2021

I’ve been thinking I’d like a 1911 9mm. RIA Armscor has a few that look interesting. They use a 1/16” rifling twist. Most other makers use 1/10” . I plan on shooting cast 125 plain based bullets at between 900 and 1000 fps. Does anyone here use this slower rate to good effect?

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David Reiss posted this 02 October 2021

There are many 9mms with 1-16 twists.

Most match grade barrels are 1-16.

The 1-9 9mms are designed to shoot the lighter weight bullets 90-110.

I have a RIA Tac Ultra FS .22TCM / 9mm combo. The 9mm barrel is 1-16 and I've had no issues with any bullets. In fact it is one of my favorite 9mms to shoot. With the FS 1911 frame, the 9mm has little recoil. One of my favorite bullets is RCBS 09-124-CN. It cast about 127 or so with WWs. It shoots well in all my 9s and the RIA is no exception. So I would not be concerned with the 1-16 twist. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
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delmarskid posted this 02 October 2021

Thanks, that’s about what I expected.

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GBertolet posted this 02 October 2021

Cast bullets tend to perform better with the slower 1-16 twist rifling. 1-10 rifling is overkill for the 9mm, although some of those barrels shoot quite well. I don't know why the gunmakers settled on the 1-10, as the industry standard for the 9mm? S&W 38 caliber revolvers, which are basicly 9mm size, shoot quite well with the 1-18 3/4 twist rifling.

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MP1886 posted this 03 October 2021

I've pondered the reason why early 9mm's such as the Luger P 08 and others had really fast twists and the only thing I could come up with is maybe it was needed to help fully function the pistol.  Let me explain.  Really fast twist create more friction thus more pressure.  Maybe with the powders they had in the beginning of semi-automatics wasn't up to snuff like today's propellants.  You all know to that the P 08 Luger requires some potent 9mm ammo to function properly.

Now on the accuracy, if you have a good gunsmith build a full out target model on the 1911 it's every bit as accurate as it's 45 acp counterpart.  I've build some really accurate 1911 9mm's and also some 38 Supers.  Supers weren't particularly accurate in it's early days because it head spaced on the rim at the back of the barrel hood on the 1911's.  That's since changed.  A savvy reloader woulld know to load his bullet out further (especially with cast) to let it head space with the bullet bumping up again the leade.   I have a really old 9mm P 08 Luger that will shoot 1/2 inch groups at 25 yards with cast.  Lugers are very accurate pistols.   

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Eutectic posted this 04 October 2021

MP 1886,

That is an interesting hypothesis, something I never considered.  The origins of the decision to use a 1 in 10 inch ( actually it was probably specified in centimeters - 20.5 cm ) are lost, The 1-10" twist works for jacketed bullets and was adopted as NATO standard which lead to wide usage. A slower twist of 1 -18 " is adequate and much better for cast bullets.

My experience with P08 Lugers is they are very accurate, but generally have poor triggers. The gunsmiths I have spoken with say getting a good trigger on a Luger P08 is difficult. If you have a good one it is a prize.

 

 

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MP1886 posted this 04 October 2021

MP 1886,

That is an interesting hypothesis, something I never considered.  The origins of the decision to use a 1 in 10 inch ( actually it was probably specified in centimeters - 20.5 cm ) are lost, The 1-10" twist works for jacketed bullets and was adopted as NATO standard which lead to wide usage. A slower twist of 1 -18 " is adequate and much better for cast bullets.

My experience with P08 Lugers is they are very accurate, but generally have poor triggers. The gunsmiths I have spoken with say getting a good trigger on a Luger P08 is difficult. If you have a good one it is a prize.     

 

I can certainly agree with you sir.  Yes that fast twist was crazy when you think that there is NO 9mm bullet that is going to be that long as to require such a fast twist.  Now if were thinking of a long 6.5 bullet for a rifle, then yes.  

 

 

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45 2.1 posted this 04 October 2021

Shoot the 9mm in slow and fast twist at +300 yds and see what happens. There is a good reason for long range sights and faster twists on 9mm's.

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MP1886 posted this 05 October 2021

That makes sense too 45 2.1 as it makes me think of those Luger artillery and carbine models with the long range tangent sights. 

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David Reiss posted this 05 October 2021

If I am shooting past 75 yards or so, I want something else in my hands than a 9mm handgun. So twist is of little concern for the handgun delmarskid is wanting to purchase.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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delmarskid posted this 06 October 2021

 Thanks for the input folks. I picked out a used but unfired Girsan 92FS Beretta knock off for a very attractive price. It's probably one in ten inch rifling twist rate. I am glad I have big hands. This will be a range gun.

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David Reiss posted this 06 October 2021

I just bought one of those about 10 days ago. Fine gun, really well made. So far it is accurate and reliable. The manual says the twist is 250mm or 9.84". 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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delmarskid posted this 07 October 2021

I’m looking forward to picking it up. I’m hoping .358” bullets will chamber so that I don’t need to resize my light .38 bullets.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 07 October 2021

ah the 92 Beretta types ... my ancient 92S has only jammed once since 1984 ...  and that in the hands of a friend so that might not count ... 

2nd in snarkiness only to the HiPower ... 

the only wart is that upside-down safety ... but then when i am "downtown" i carry it decocked off safety.

ken

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Ed Harris posted this 08 October 2021

Ludwig Olson told me that the reasoning for the fast twist in the 9mm was that German cavalry officers wanted to be able to shoot through a horse. An emphasis was on penetration and bullet stability.  Sounds like they must have read the US Army Reports of the Chief of Ordnance in selecting the blackpowder .45 Colt, and they poo-pooed the British low velocity tumbling bullet approach.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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