Best Filler Material For 45-70

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GBertolet posted this 15 September 2013

I am helping a friend who is new to reloading, work up a load for his new 1895 Marlin 45-70. He has lots of IMR 4227, so that will be the powder of choice. Bullet is a Lee 340 gr PB. He is after traditional trapdoor or 1886 power levels. We believe 25 to 30 grains will achieve this. Problem is this powder is pretty dense and leaves lots of free space in the case. We are now considering adding a filler. What kind of filler is best for this cartridge, and how it is it best applied? 

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RicinYakima posted this 15 September 2013

Air is the best filler, applied under the bullet and over the powder. HTH, Ric

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linoww posted this 15 September 2013

nicely said Ric.I agree!

George

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onondaga posted this 15 September 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1738>GBertolet

Something is always the “BEST” for one reason or another. I use a lot of different fillers. The easiest one for just filling light load airspace for powder ignition in large bore straight walled .45 cal. cartridges is right at your Value Hardware Store.

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/P9150031_zpsd7514855.jpg.html>http://www.midwayusa.com/product/695248/bpi-shot-buffer-original-500cc-approximately-1-2-lb>http://www.midwayusa.com/product/695248/bpi-shot-buffer-original-500cc-approximately-1-2-lb But BPI Original is not cheap! The clapper on the #55 measure makes metering BPI Original very consistent.

Gary

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linoww posted this 15 September 2013

I dont think many that shoot CBA Military Big Bore matches use filler.I know Ric has won quite a few matches not using it.I dont like fillers and if a load needs it to shoot well i would look for a different powder.I played with Super Grex in a 30 BR and 30-30 a 20 or so years ago and got it to work OK but never any better than a non filler load.Some that used it back then got a build up in the throat of the during the course a of a match.It  was not too easy to remove so they stopped using it.

Gary-your “backer rod” is the same material that plainbase shooter use to hold the powder back on their cases for breech seat loads.It is “sill sealer” they use and thinner but works well.I tried it on 30-06 plainbase loads but holding the powder back didn't give me  any  better accuracy with my 7-8g of Bullseye loads. .

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jhalcott posted this 15 September 2013

Poly fill, the stuff you find in old pillows wll work.

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linoww posted this 15 September 2013

jhalcott wrote: Poly fill, the stuff you find in old pillows wll work.

true.the one case where i i saw huge improvement was my buddies 7.62 Russian and 16g 2400.With no filler 2"+ groups,with filler about 1.5".But when he bumped it to 17g and no filler it shot just as well.

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GBertolet posted this 15 September 2013

I have the dacron poly and the BP filler which I have used in other cartridges. I also have some corn meal, which some old timers like, but I would prefer to use something a little cleaner. I was just wondering what the more experienced shooters prefered in the 45-70, and what worked well for them. I did not want to try to reinvent the wheel here if possible. My friend does have a lesser amount of Unique powder on hand, which currently is almost impossible to replace due to market conditions. That's why at this point we hesitated to use it. Lyman no longer gives cast load data in the 45-70 using Unique, for some reason. I have heard around 14 to 15 grains works fine. Maybe that will fill the case more, eliminating the need for a filler. I do like the idea of using the poly foam, but doesn't that melt upon firing and gum up the bore?

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onondaga posted this 15 September 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1738>GBertolet

The 1/2” diameter Frost King Poly Foam just blows out of the muzzle like any other filler. It does not leave burned/melted poly in the barrel but you will find spent slightly scorched plugs of it a few yards downrange.

The BPI original is my first choice but it is nearly the same per pound as powder. The best feature of BPI Original is that it acts as a Quasi gas check and extends the load range of plain based bullets significantly.

PRPSB is also a filler I use and much less costly than BPI, but it is heavier being a spherical particulate instead  of the fluffy BPI original. PRPSB also has a significant cleaning effect on your bores. PRPSB:

http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PRE&Product_Code=PRPSB22&Category_Code=BUFFER>http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&StoreCode=PRE&ProductCode=PRPSB22&CategoryCode=BUFFER This is a large container, one quart volume and weighs 22 ounces. The PRPSB is dense and heavy enough that you need to add the weight you use of it in a round added to the bullet weight for total projectile weight in your safety, pressure, velocity calculations. The PRPSB is very easy to measure consistently with Lee scoops. DANGER! Don't spill any PRPSB on hard floors, it is like thousands of micro ball bearings and unless you're an excellent ice skater, you will end up on your butt or worse!!!!!!

Corn meal and other coarse vegetable fiber fillers are even heavier and more potentially dangerous due to their weight. All vegetable/bio-fillers readily absorb moisture from the air and I stay away from them.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 15 September 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1738>GBertolet

Incidently, I hope you and your friend do better with the Lee 457-340-RNF than I did. That mold dropped bullets .457” in diameter with #2 alloy  and my .458 Win Mag likes cast bullets .460-.461” or it shoots all over the place. I had to hone the Lee 340 mold out to drop bullets .460” before they would group 1"at 50 yards for me at any load level. Before honing the mold out, my groups were 3-6” at 50 yards and mostly off target paper at 100 yards.

Gary

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giorgio de galleani posted this 15 September 2013

Gentlemen , do NOT use fillers,they might cause chamber rings ,or worse .

If you have to use a filler,you are using the wrong powder or primer. or both.

I use  large  rifle magnum or Winchester large rilfle primers in the 375H&H ,458 Lott and 416 Rigby with loads of shotgun powders and have no problems.

Now I am using AQUILA L  CHEDDITE,  a powder  studied for 36 grams of shot in the 12 gauge.( a little more than 1 ounce and 1/8)

A little slower than Unique.

Fillers add a variable ,cost time and money and most nobody that is anybody uses them anymore..

And if you take them filler loads  afield ,either they are packed tight as in the shotgun shells or they move in the case.

In the case of 45/70  Marlin with Lee's light bullets ,stay away from fillers and undersized bollets get a four cavity 460 bullet .From LBT or Accurate Molds et coetera.  I load Accurate but  gentle loads  killing the boars ,if I connect.

Vihtavuori 120 burns badly in the 45/70 while Vihtavuori N 110  burns well ,at the 24 grains level.

N120 is similar ti  4227 , while N110 is similar to 2400.

I like to say that fillers in smokeless loads, are like double acton in automatic pistols ,a complicated solution to a nonexistent problem..

 

Of course Black powder cartriges are another world,light loads of black powder must be compressed in the cartridge..

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giorgio de galleani posted this 15 September 2013

PS Read with attention the  late two or three Lyman manuals ,and the old cast bullet manuals. 

In the49th edition read at page 445,They still put  unique in the 45/70 ,look at the loads in the Contender pistol 45/70.

The Lyman manual perpetuates a lot of obsolete old wives tales on cast bullets ,as the size to diameters of cast bullet.

Like many other reloading manuals , they are essentially  advertising catalogs  for their reloading tools.

Powder makers  and bullet makers are more useful for us.

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onondaga posted this 15 September 2013

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=519>giorgio de galleani

There are a few specific reasons that fillers can cause chamber rings. A generalization such as yours is unfair and nonfactual.

There may be more reasons but these are the reasons I know of that can cause chamber ringing with fillers:

1) loose filler not completely filling the airspace, causes a pressure spike similar to a bore obstruction.

2) loose hard fillers that act like a plug with combustion blowing by and around, again causing a pressure spike.

3) heavy filler weight not added to bullet weight for a total projectile weight. This may put you past safe pressure level for your firearm.

4) using a filler with very fast pistol powders that are sensitive to case volume. Again causing a pressure spike.

If these things aren't common sense to you, Brain-up and learn something  before fooling with fillers. Don't just blindly be in terror of fillers.  An excellent informational primer on the safe use of fillers is at:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/castfiller/index.asp>http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/castfiller/index.asp

This is not a short read and could save the life of an ignorant person from improper use of fillers.

Most shooters want to try fillers due to a low volume charge of a relatively slow powder for a reduced load level, using fast pistol powder in that application is a reasonable blunder to avoid that some shooters will never heed and they will continue to curse fillers because of the damage and injury they cause. Using the slow powder with a reduced charge leaves an airspace that the filler remedies in wide applications.

Sure, selection of  a recommended powder giving the same low load level desired is the best idea,  and for rifle,  H4895 has manufacturers recommendations for reduced loads down to 60% of case volume for cartridges that H4895 is recommended. Cases over 60% full of H4895 dont have ignition problems due to airspace or position sensitivity.

Gary

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giorgio de galleani posted this 15 September 2013

Please do not take offense, i do not mean to be rude or offensive.

Everibody is free  to use fillers  and double action autopistols and steckers or schnellers on their hunting rifles.

As I do have the right of not using them.

I am a cast bullet shooter since 1969 and I have read something since then.

Let me shake hands with RICINYAKIMA and LINOWW  and the shooters that do not use fillers.

 

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 15 September 2013

GBertolet wrote: I am helping a friend who is new to reloading, work up a load for his new 1895 Marlin 45-70. He has lots of IMR 4227, so that will be the powder of choice. Bullet is a Lee 340 gr PB. He is after traditional trapdoor or 1886 power levels. We believe 25 to 30 grains will achieve this. Problem is this powder is pretty dense and leaves lots of free space in the case. We are now considering adding a filler. What kind of filler is best for this cartridge, and how it is it best applied? 

In the .405 Win I use a 3/4” square of paper towel pushed in so as not to touch but be just above the powder. It burns completely and with the powders I've tried it leaves a very clean bore. It has made position sensitive powders consistent in ignition.

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GBertolet posted this 16 September 2013

onondaga, My friend lucked out on the new Lee mold. The bullets drop out at .459- .460 when cast of WW.

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Brodie posted this 16 September 2013

I'll stand with Giorgio, Rick, And Linow.  Find a better powder, primer combination. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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frnkeore posted this 16 September 2013

Old Coot wrote: I'll stand with Giorgio, Rick, And Linow.  Find a better powder, primer combination. Brodie

I stand in that row, too. The only filler I've ever used with a 45/70 is 4831. I “rang” a chamber on a very valuable rifle barrel with one. It wasn't in a 45/70 but, a 30 cal. Once bitten shy forever!!!!

Frank

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CB posted this 16 September 2013

giorgio de galleani wrote: Please do not take offense, i do not mean to be rude or offensive.

Everibody is free  to use fillers  and double action autopistols and steckers or schnellers on their hunting rifles.

As I do have the right of not using them.

I am a cast bullet shooter since 1969 and I have read something since then.

Let me shake hands with RICINYAKIMA and LINOWW  and the shooters that do not use fillers.

 

Hi giorgio (Italian for 'great guy'), I shake yer hand also...Dan

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Uncle Russ posted this 16 September 2013

I like to say that fillers in smokeless loads, are like double acton in automatic pistols ,a complicated solution to a nonexistent problem.. a quote from the famous Italian hog hunter.

I could not agree with you more. I have used the DA remark ever since the introduction of the wonder 9 in the 80's. All hype and BS. What did these guys do that Walther did not do in 1935 with the P-38?

My trapdoor likes 27 gr of IMR4227 with a 380gr bullet. NO FILLER.

Ric says no fillers, I use no fillers. He threatens me if I don't listen and I shoot with him at least once a week. The stress is unbearable!

RicinYakima --> :drillsgt:

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RDUPRAZ posted this 16 September 2013

Make room for one more giorgio. Have been reloading since the early 60's and have never used any type of filler in order to make accurate loads and never will.

RD

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