Lee 300AAC/X39 Range test

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  • Last Post 06 June 2015
onondaga posted this 17 May 2013

It's been a long wait but the “No Blue Sky” update to my club range is finished. Picture below, at  the top is barely visible the overhead baffles. This is the setup with chrono at 10 feet and target at 50 yards.

I test fired my Remington Spartan 7.62X39 at low velocities with the new Lee 300 AAC bullet cast in #2 alloy, unchecked and sized .3125"

Chrono, 5 shots with 6.9 gr H TiteGroup; Avg. 1,117 fps, ES-4 Chrono, 5 shots with 8.0 gr H TiteGroup; Avg. 1,202 fps, ES-7

Both load levels exhibited unstable bullets with the faster load keyholing 2 out of 25 shots and the slower having minor problems at 50 yards and grouping good enough for squirrel heads at 50 yards. Next, I have used charge reduction software and targeted a load for 950 fps. I believe the lower velocity load will be more stable and group tighter. 5.6 gr H Titegroup was projected for 950 fps. This new Lee bullet is designed to be fired sub-sonic and I believe it will do best at design velocities. So I will be polishing brass and start loading the new charge soon. Gary

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/P5170136_zps760be92f.jpg.html>http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/P5170135_zpseedd7772.jpg.html>

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onondaga posted this 06 June 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=885>JDNC

Keep your Lee Liquid Alox, I have plenty of 45:45:10 tumble lube that dries clear and tack free under 5 minutes when I warm the bullets and lube. Thank you anyway!

You can mix your own Bud's formula that dries clear and tack free with 60% Lee LLA and 40% Johnson's “ONE STEP” Just mix and use. Look for the Johnson's One Step at hardware stores or on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/JOHNSON-00125-Johnson-Wood-22-Ounce/dp/B000F5K3U2/ref=sr_1_3?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1433609722&sr=1-3&keywords=johnson%27s+floor+wax>http://www.amazon.com/JOHNSON-00125-Johnson-Wood-22-Ounce/dp/B000F5K3U2/ref=sr13?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1433609722&sr=1-3&keywords=johnson%27s+floor+wax

New users of this Bud's formula are raving about it's quick drying and non tackiness and calling it an improvement over the 45:45:10 that I use.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 06 June 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=885>JDNC

Sure, I was using Lee bullet sizing dies when I had checks flying off. Fortunately I used measuring and simple logic to figure out the problem. I changed to 31 cal checks when I noticed a particular measurement discrepancy with the checked bullets with 30 caliber checks that were having checks flying off in the air. Some of them struck my chronograph too.

I measured the sized/checked bullets with 30 caliber checks at the diameter of the gas check on the bullet. Then I measured the diameter of the bullet at the driving bands. The driving bands measured bigger than the check diameter by over .001". That means the checks weren't big enough to be sized or crimped by the Lee bullet sizing die at .312". They were just being pushed on and weren't big enough to be actually sized and crimped to the bullet.

The problem disappeared with 31 caliber checks. The 31 caliber checks were big enough by .002-.003” to be sized and crimped to the bullets by the die and when when I measured the check and bullet driving bands after sizing there was no difference. The bullet and check were sized to the same diameter from the bullet sizing die and the crimp was secure.

The problem with the 30 caliber checks being smaller than the bullet sizing size was eliminated and the 31 caliber checks sized and crimped nicely to my 300AAC bullets at .312” for my 7.62X39 single shot Remington Spartan rifle. I had a group size decrease with the 31 caliber checks and no more flying gas checks denting my chronograph.

Gary

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JDNC posted this 06 June 2015

Gary,Pretty much same here.  I was just wondering if you were using Lee type sizer when your GC's were coming off.  I was, and couldn't figure out why the check would be loose with the Lee die and not with the lubesizer.  I never used or had that much luck with the tumble lube and wish Lee would give an option as to order with or without.  I've got several bottles I'll give you if you want to PM me your address.  Not that it doesn't work but I found other lubes I like better.  I do use it to coat some tools for storage though, also works great for that!  I'm going to exhaust all options before changing the barrel but as for twist rates, I think an inch of twist in the fast rate end (7 to 9) would be a greater percentage in RPM than the slower rates like 12 to 14. Also at subsonic velocities it might make the difference in stabilizing or not (in my rifle).  I know you are getting good results though.  I know they're a lot of twist calculators out there that say 1:8 will do for this length bullet but I plugged the dimensions in a cast bullet design program and it shows at 1050 fps 1:8 is on the threshold of not being fast enough.  But the real deal is the target and changing out the barrel is way down my list, I'll tell you that! PS If I figure out how to paragraph I will!

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onondaga posted this 06 June 2015

JD

I use the Lee Lube and Size kits with push through bullet sizing dies exclusively and don't hesitate to custom hone them. They can be ordered in custom sizes but I find it easy to hone  them. I started using the Lee kits as soon as they became available decades ago and never went back to traditional bullet sizing and pressure lube.

The Lee stuff and 45:45:10 tumble lube has been consistently successful for me and at this point in our hobby, going back to a  traditional lubrisizer and pressure lube would be going  back across the line of innovation to the obsolete. I never did as well with the old as I do with the new.

Gary

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JDNC posted this 06 June 2015

Gary, I just ordered 100 of the GC's.

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JDNC posted this 06 June 2015

Gary,Thanks for the GC info.  I only have Hornady and Lyman 30 cal.  I can't remember which checks I had that flew off.  Yeah, in reference to chamber casting I know better.  Guess I'm getting lazy in my old age.  There is really no short cuts as mine always turns into extra work. BTW..are you sizing with a Push through die or lubesizer? JD

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onondaga posted this 05 June 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=885>JDNC

I had gas checks flying off too. I solved that problem with a specific method for the caliber 7.62X39. I stopped using 30 caliber gas checks and got some 31 caliber aluminum gas checks from sageoutdoors.com. My picture up the page shows 30 cal gas checks, but I have since changed to 31 cal gas checks and they don't fly off because they start out at a diameter larger than the bullet sizing die. The smaller 30 cal checks aren't big enough to be sized and they don't get crimped well on 7.62X39 bullets, so they fly off.

Here is the exact checks I use, they are made for .303 Brit and they don't fly off my 7.62X39 bullets sized/checked at .312 and .3125":

http://www.sagesoutdoors.com/22-to-38-caliber-gas-checks/10-303-caliber-gas-checks.html>http://www.sagesoutdoors.com/22-to-38-caliber-gas-checks/10-303-caliber-gas-checks.html

This was a good solution for me, the 30 cal checks fly off and the 31 cal checks don't fly off for me.

I suggest you get a small quantity of the Sage's checks and try them. You can try 100 of them for $4.99 from Sages to see how they will work for you. If you are size/checking at .310” or more as I am, the Sage's 31 cal checks will fit and crimp better than 30 cal.

Pound casting or chamber casting will give you an accurate throat dimension. I generally do that every rifle and then hone bullet molds and bullet sizing dies to get sliding throat fit for sized/checked bullets. It is not easy, but is routine for me to get a baseline in bullet fit for accuracy.

Gary

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JDNC posted this 05 June 2015

Gary, I'm in agreement with trying the gas checks.  I really think I'm taking too many short cuts and I know better. I think I'll chamber cast (or tamp lead) to see what the throat diameter and groove really is. If need be I'll hone the mold as you advise ( great idea btw). I do think I'll try the GC's as that might cure the yawing.  In my experience, a bullet will not give the best accuracy if it's yawing.  I've read that a GC will give a bullet a better grip in the bore reference spin but I don't know. Worth trying though.  The main reason I haven't used GC's is that I saw a couple stuck in my sky screen several years ago (so I know they will come off sometimes).  As I might use this bullet powder coated in a suppressor later on I have reservations on its use with a GC.  For that matter, I don't really know if powder coat residue will cause a problem, but I don't want even one GC strike a baffle.  I can swage copper jacketed, or even buy them, but when I saw some were using powder coated cast I thought I would give it a try. BTW, for anyone interested, the GC's that I found imbedded in my start screen were seated using a push through Lee sizing die at the time.  These were 30 cal 170 gr. LBT bullets.  I never experienced this when sizing with a lubesizer.  I don't have a clue as the difference!  JD

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onondaga posted this 30 May 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=885>JDNC

Honestly, the twist is not near as important with cast bullets as it is with jacketed bullets and your twist is much closer to perfect than mine.

I didn't mean using a lathe to open up your mold. Search honing Lee molds, it is a simple procedure using a cast bullet with a nut sitting on the mold top while casting to make a mold honing plug. I use pumice and dish-soap for an abrasive and turn the plug with a wrench. There are specific water cleaning steps but nothing difficult. I have done it more than several times and posted on it myself.

Where you may also notice a big accuracy difference is between using and not using a gas check. One way will shoot better but either is sufficient for a pressure matched alloy for the load you shoot. My rifle shoots better subsonic through moderate velocities with  gas check installed when sizing.

Mine:

Gary

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JDNC posted this 30 May 2015

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=885>JDNC

I hope you do well but changing from a 1:8 to a 1:7 twist is a tiny difference that may not show on paper at all.  The .311 sizing helped significantly for you. .3115 might take you to 1” groups if that bullet size will function. I would hone out a Lee bullet sizing die to size bullets .3115” and try. That makes a lot more sense than a new barrel with only a 1” twist difference.

Honing the bullet nose area  of the mold to fit your G to G isn't hard either if you have experience. Lee aluminum molds modify easily.

Either of these modifications makes more sense to me than changing to a barrel with only a 1” twist difference.

Out of round holes on paper is also highly dramatized, group size is what counts regardless of bullet hole shape. 

My twist is slower than yours and I get the Lee AAC bullet to fly just fine. My rifle is a single shot 7.62X39 with a 1:10 twist 24” chrome lined barrel and consistently groups under 1” at 50 yards and 2.1” at 100. My holes on paper are round at 1160 fps with H TiteGroup.

GaryWell, changing barrels is not that much of a deal as I don't need to do any machine work on an AR (and I have the barrel on hand).  As for the mold, I've considered lathe boring the base but for only 25 bucks or so I might order another mold as it takes time to set up for boring. I might order a mold from Accurate Molds and try something different anyway.  I'm glad you are having good luck with this bullet.  I'm not giving up, just scratching my head some.  I might add AAC has recently changed their barrels to 1/7.  I wonder if they have found the 8 pitch to slow for some of the heavy's. I love tinkering though, if everything shot well...what would we do?

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onondaga posted this 28 May 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=885>JDNC

I hope you do well but changing from a 1:8 to a 1:7 twist is a tiny difference that may not show on paper at all.  The .311 sizing helped significantly for you. .3115 might take you to 1” groups if that bullet size will function. I would hone out a Lee bullet sizing die to size bullets .3115” and try. That makes a lot more sense than a new barrel with only a 1” twist difference.

Honing the bullet nose area  of the mold to fit your G to G isn't hard either if you have experience. Lee aluminum molds modify easily.

Either of these modifications makes more sense to me than changing to a barrel with only a 1” twist difference.

Out of round holes on paper is also highly dramatized, group size is what counts regardless of bullet hole shape. 

My twist is slower than yours and I get the Lee AAC bullet to fly just fine. My rifle is a single shot 7.62X39 with a 1:10 twist 24” chrome lined barrel and consistently groups under 1” at 50 yards and 2.1” at 100. My holes on paper are round at 1160 fps with H TiteGroup.

Gary

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JDNC posted this 28 May 2015

As for an update, due to the AR platform Ive been looking for a powder that will fill the case more and still burn fairly clean. After crunching numbers with QuickLoad I decided to try IMR4198. With a COAL=2.090” due to mag feeding, a 9.5gr charge leaves very little space. This load clocked at 1040fps with ES=21, SD=8. But again I find egg shaped holes in the target, but groups about 2.5” at 100 yds. If I bump up the velocity around 1100fps the bullet is stablizied and groups sometimes under 2". I feel that this bullet is on the edge of not being stabilized under 1100 fps using a 1/8 barrel. I'm really considering changing to a 1/7 as I plan on using this bullet subsonic. It wants to shoot so bad, but just can't in my 1/8 twist barrel.

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badammo posted this 22 May 2015

I have been trying different loads for the Lee in my 300 AAC. So far its been poor. The 160 Lyman SIL with GC is doing about 3” groups so far. I polished the bore when barrel was new using Gary's method. It worked so well I have polished several other barrels. I shot some 110 gr V-max for reference And was getting 1” groups with red dot sight on AR.

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JDNC posted this 16 May 2015

JDNC wrote: Well, I cast about 50 or so bullets from my new Lee 300blk mold with what was in my furnace which I think was 20:1 lead/tin. These dropped around 230grs. After reading about the powder coat thing I tried it and sized to 309. The bore ride part of the bullet cast at 0.299” and the front driving band was 0.302". I used both LilGun and also IMR4227 and both cycled my AR-15 action at subsonic velocities but LilGun smoked up the case neck. I settled on 9.5grs of 4227 for 1100fps with my 16” 1/8 barrel. My problem was that at 100yds I found that the bullets were cutting egg shaped holes and wouldn't group but about nine inches. I emptied my furnace and then filled with lyman#2 and cast more bullets again powder coating but this time sizing 0.311". If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I don't think I would have believed it! After a fouling shot that went right where I was aiming, I shot 8 rounds at 100yds, 7 inside 1” with one flier opening the group to 2". So tomorrow I'm going to try it again! After some 40 some years of casting and shooting cast bullets I reluctantly tried the powder coat believing it would throw my bullets so off balance I would be wasting my time. I really shouldn't have tried a new allow and also size differently as I don't know what caused the big change. May have been a combination of the two, but I think the harder alloy allowed a more stable spin out the barrel. I do think the 8 twist for this bullet is at the limit for this length bullet.Well, today I found what I suspected.  I could not duplicate the tight groups of yesterday but they did stay around 3” or so.  But I don't think this 8 twist barrel will stabilize heavy bullets at subsonic velocities.  I kept seeing egg shaped holes in the targets.  Hopefully to prove myself wrong I switched to Sierra 180 gr SPFB and they also sometimes left a trace of egg shaped holes.  I shot loads from 1000-1100 fps. I have a 7 twist barrel so I think I'll change it out.  If a 8 twist will stabilize these heavier long bullets maybe my barrel was stamped wrong:D

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JDNC posted this 16 May 2015

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: guess we need to stay up with technology ... brakes, cans ... what is a BCG ?

would a can need a hard alloy ? usually a sub-sonic load would use a pretty soft alloy .

ken
BCG=Bolt Carrier Group I thought the same thing about the soft alloy but I was wrong.  My rifle likes lyman #2.

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JDNC posted this 16 May 2015

Well, I cast about 50 or so bullets from my new Lee 300blk mold with what was in my furnace which I think was 20:1 lead/tin. These dropped around 230grs. After reading about the powder coat thing I tried it and sized to 309. The bore ride part of the bullet cast at 0.299” and the front driving band was 0.302". I used both LilGun and also IMR4227 and both cycled my AR-15 action at subsonic velocities but LilGun smoked up the case neck. I settled on 9.5grs of 4227 for 1100fps with my 16” 1/8 barrel. My problem was that at 100yds I found that the bullets were cutting egg shaped holes and wouldn't group but about nine inches. I emptied my furnace and then filled with lyman#2 and cast more bullets again powder coating but this time sizing 0.311". If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I don't think I would have believed it! After a fouling shot that went right where I was aiming, I shot 8 rounds at 100yds, 7 inside 1” with one flier opening the group to 2". So tomorrow I'm going to try it again! After some 40 some years of casting and shooting cast bullets I reluctantly tried the powder coat believing it would throw my bullets so off balance I would be wasting my time. I really shouldn't have tried a new allow and also size differently as I don't know what caused the big change. May have been a combination of the two, but I think the harder alloy allowed a more stable spin out the barrel. I do think the 8 twist for this bullet is at the limit for this length bullet.

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onondaga posted this 15 May 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8045>gpidaho

Your 1:7 Twist is an excellent match to your long cast bullet in your caliber. It is such a good match that if you develop pitching and yawing bullets, it will not be because of the bearing area or bullet weight. Fit might get you.

I was hoping you wouldn't have to “bump up” with a coating, but instead, luck out with a mold/alloy that casts as large as mine does. I have to size mine down to .312” . They drop at .313-.314". Nose size has not been an issue or a concern for me either. They work.

Gary

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gpidaho posted this 15 May 2015

Well friends, I'm starting to warm up to this bullet (Lee 230)  As Gary did I thought I'd give it a try in 7.62X39. Mine is a 15” T/C Encore.  My mould drops small in the nose but it casts such a pretty bullet with printing spacer alloy that I'm just bumping them up in size using powder coat. In my Encore you can seat the bullet way out there! I'm using a COL of 2.635 this puts .300 into the case and keeps the gas check in the neck. I used Gary's load of 8gr TiteGroup and a WAG of mine 16.5 RL7. Shooting a five shot group at 50yrds. four went into 2” with one wide flyer. I think the flyer was most likely a poorly seated check, as Ed said there not easy to get on there just right.  I had just tossed on a 3MOA red dot scope for plinking so no serious target work but clay pigeons were pretty much a gimmie at 50yrds. I'll mount up a real scope soon and see how that goes. I'm encouraged.  Gary, my blackout Handi is a one in seven twist but so far I've seen no sign of the shimmie in my Encore.  GP

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onondaga posted this 13 May 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=885>JDNC

I think you will like the BPI Original you ordered. My bench includes a Lyman 55 Ideal Powder Measure, with the knocker. This classic measure handles BPI very well and I use it routinely when metering BPI Original filler.

The general safety rule with this filler is to add the weight of the filler you use to your bullet weight for a total projectile weight to use in any load planning.

Gary

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gpidaho posted this 13 May 2015

Ken and friends: There has been a thought on my mind since I purchased the Lee TL309-230-5R. I have a 300 Blackout single shot, 1 in 7 twist and several 30cal rifles with 1 in 10 twists. One of these is the 7.62X39. My question is how do you think this bullet would perform if cast from Zamac or other high quality zinc alloy? This should put it at about 150grs. I'm aware of the extra temperature concerns and aluminum moulds and the fact that the sprue would most likely need to be removed by other means than the old “give it a whack". With the boat tail and extra length, also no need for lube do any of you see this working for a HV cast bullet. Thoughts? GP

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