45acp in a 1911

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  • Last Post 15 April 2013
rojkoh posted this 12 April 2013

Guys, been shooting a lot of cast bullets out of a 1911 since the mid 70's (averaging 2-3000 rounds a month until the mid 80's). If you need any help, happy to lend a hand as I can.

Since a lot of shooters went through the “Which powder is best” routine in the early days of IPSC (which really was practical shooting in those days). Unique, Bullseye 231 and a lot of powders were tried. Of all of these, the single most popular for years was 231. Problem with using Bullseye in a 1911 is gunk. We did try a lot of tricks to get better ignition, didn't work. End of last year I did shoot some ammo loaded with bullseye out of a new Shooting star magazine and found it was jamming because there was so much gunk in the mag. That's Bullseye, which is fine for wheelguns (and Ed does that one a LOT!) ;)

With the H&G#68 I normally use and are readily available if you can't cast. Some quick notes:

5” Gov't 16 to 18 lb. recoil spring. H&G 68 200 grain SWC. Any brass (except I don't load small primer pockets) 231 powder Federal primers (best and most consistent ignition even with service pistol like the 1911/1911A1 or a tricked out gun. Option is to use WInchester Large pistol. These are also good primer and the pressures of these two are consistent and proper.

Mild practice load for older guys, kids and women that aren't used to shooting a 1911 is: 4.7 to 5.0 grains of 231.

The old Hardball equivalent is 5.8 grains of 231 using the above.

The second powder option if your press can handle fine grained powder is titegroup. Currently popular with the some of the competitive shooters including 38 super. I can post loads for that also.

Over all length max is 1.260, you'll find that some chambers and magazines like the Para-Ord (at least the early ones) want it 1.250. With a slight jump to bore, these might not be as accurate in a 1911 made for 1.260.. but they still work fine. I've seen bullets seated shorter and they still work. Just be careful not TOO short!

Let me know if I can help.

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mckg posted this 12 April 2013

That's interesting. I tried Titegroup with my standard alox lubed bullets in 45; it is very accurate until the gunk builds up on the barrel bed, rises it and causes said barrel to catch FN bullets noses. Older powders, like 700X, are much cleaner.

I also find it hard on the nerves; it meters very well in my Auto-Disks (new Hopper), but its high density and dark color make it very difficult to check loads visually on the Pro 1000.

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rojkoh posted this 12 April 2013

mckg wrote: That's interesting. I tried Titegroup with my standard alox lubed bullets in 45; it is very accurate until the gunk builds up on the barrel bed, rises it and causes said barrel to catch FN bullets noses. Older powders, like 700X, are much cleaner.

I also find it hard on the nerves; it meters very well in my Auto-Disks (new Hopper), but its high density and dark color make it very difficult to check loads visually on the Pro 1000.

One of the reasons I'd still loading with 231. ;)

But I don't like bullets lubed with Alox, I just don't care for it in the 1911s because it does gunk up the pistol. Magna (I think it is) is what's typically used and cleaner. This might help. I can check on the lube if you like, the name just doesn't come to mind right now.I can also call to see if there's any input on this from the guys I know using Titegroup if it'll help. One of the guys I know using it is with his 38 super (race guns) and they're far more finickier.

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mckg posted this 12 April 2013

I'd like very much to find a substitute to the obnoxious Alox for tumble lubing, yes :)! There's always Veral Smith's frying pan lubing method...

For the Titegroup, it's on 9 luger duty, and still giving me headaches...:X

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rojkoh posted this 12 April 2013

mckg wrote: I'd like very much to find a substitute to the obnoxious Alox for tumble lubing, yes :)! There's always Veral Smith's frying pan lubing method...

For the Titegroup, it's on 9 luger duty, and still giving me headaches...:X

OK, I'll check tomorrow (time to hit the sack). Sorry I don't do 9mm since 1980 and won't. Can't help there, but something like Ed, I've loved all kinds of rounds with 231 and others. Nope, don't do 44 mag (did do 44 spl), and anything smaller than 380 (for a friend's PPK).

Ed does use an interesting procedure (Ask ED Harris), but I wouldn't use it for the auto's. Tell him the pogo stick guy told you to ask! He stands up the bullets in a pan and melts something into them. But I don't care for that lube. Ed loads a lot of strange (to me) calibers).

Just bought a Star Lube sizer and got some lube with it called BAC lube (beeswax). Haven't tried it yet and I'll still look up the other source. Or kick me in the shorts if I forget.

OK the name is Magma engineering.

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99 Strajght posted this 12 April 2013

I have had very good luck with  the 45-45-10 lub. The gun doesn't gunk up and neither do the the dies. The lub is not hard to make and a little last a long time.

Glenn

What part of “Shall not be infringed” do you not understand.

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Ed Harris posted this 12 April 2013

rojkoh looks at my pan lubing or use of LLA as something like alchemy learned from a moldy fuzzy monster which came out of a limestone cave in West Virginia,

Awwwwwwwwwwwwww!

Brown goooooo! EEEECK! Keep away!

(Holding up crossed fingers like hex sign!)

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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rojkoh posted this 12 April 2013

Ed Harris wrote: rojkoh looks at my pan lubing or use of LLA as something like alchemy learned from a moldy fuzzy monster which came out of a limestone cave in West Virginia,

Awwwwwwwwwwwwww!

Brown goooooo! EEEECK! Keep away!

(Holding up crossed fingers like hex sign!)

Excuse me Mr. Harris, I save the sign of the cross for Bullseye!! RUNAWAY!!!!!!!!! :cusout:

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rojkoh posted this 12 April 2013

99 Strajght wrote: I have had very good luck with  the 45-45-10 lub. The gun doesn't gunk up and neither do the the dies. The lub is not hard to make and a little last a long time.

Glenn

What part of “Shall not be infringed” do you not understand.

Howdy Glen, haven't tried it. But since i"m an old cuss, I'm kinda picky about certain things, the same way Ed Harris uses Bullseye (I think he brushes his teeth with it at night).

Might be worth a try, but I do kinda cranky when somethings going to soul .45s.

Magma is what a lot of the commercial casting people seem to be using (at least those with clean lube). I did try some bullets earlier this year, given the fact that the brass varies, and you typically get some shaving on the bullets form time to time, I hate gunky lube. Had to clean the progressive press to many times. I don't bell the cases excessively because it does over work the brass.

I have tried reaming the case mouth, but I just don't like it given the case walls on some brass. Sorry, I am rambling.

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rojkoh posted this 12 April 2013

99 Strajght wrote: I have had very good luck with  the 45-45-10 lub. The gun doesn't gunk up and neither do the the dies. The lub is not hard to make and a little last a long time.

Glenn

What part of “Shall not be infringed” do you not understand.

Howdy Glen, haven't tried it. But since i"m an old cuss, I'm kinda picky about certain things, the same way Ed Harris uses Bullseye (I think he brushes his teeth with it at night).

Might be worth a try, but I do kinda cranky when somethings going to soul .45s.

Magma is what a lot of the commercial casting people seem to be using (at least those with clean lube). I did try some bullets earlier this year, given the fact that the brass varies, and you typically get some shaving on the bullets form time to time, I hate gunky lube. Had to clean the progressive press to many times. I don't bell the cases excessively because it does over work the brass.

I have tried reaming the case mouth, but I just don't like it given the case walls on some brass. Sorry, I am rambling.

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rojkoh posted this 12 April 2013

99 Strajght wrote: I have had very good luck with  the 45-45-10 lub. The gun doesn't gunk up and neither do the the dies. The lub is not hard to make and a little last a long time.

Glenn

What part of “Shall not be infringed” do you not understand.

Howdy Glen, haven't tried it. But since i"m an old cuss, I'm kinda picky about certain things, the same way Ed Harris uses Bullseye (I think he brushes his teeth or gargles with it at night). ;)

Might be worth a try, but I do kinda cranky when somethings going to foul 1911s.

Magma is what a lot of the commercial casting people seem to be using (at least those with clean lube). I did try some bullets earlier this year, given the fact that the brass varies, and you typically can get some shaving on the bullets from time to time, I hate gunky lube. Had to clean the progressive press to many times. I don't bell the cases excessively because it does over work the brass.

I have tried reaming the case mouth, but I just don't like it given the case walls on some brass.

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99 Strajght posted this 12 April 2013

I have tried many lubs and ways to apply them, but found 45-45-10 to be the best. Last summer John Alexander wrote an article on the Cast Bullet forum about how to make and use 45-45-10. There is also a link to another web site on how to make and use 45-45-10. This is the best that I have tried and used the 45 and 30-06. Look up his article “Best way to use Lee Liquid Alox."

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rojkoh posted this 12 April 2013

99 Strajght wrote: I have tried many lubs and ways to apply them, but found 45-45-10 to be the best. Last summer John Alexander wrote an article on the Cast Bullet forum about how to make and use 45-45-10. There is also a link to another web site on how to make and use 45-45-10. This is the best that I have tried and used the 45 and 30-06. Look up his article “Best way to use Lee Kiquid Alox."

Much appreciated, but I can simply ask Ed (Bullseye) Harris.

Oh Ed???? ;)

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99 Strajght posted this 12 April 2013

I am sorry. I gave credit to the wrong person. It was onondaga that gave the information to John Alexanders question. I have got to start looking this stuff up and not trying to remember. You know what they say. The mind is the second thing to go.

What part of “Shall not be infringed” do you not understand.

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Chargar posted this 12 April 2013

I have well over 1/4 million rounds of cast bullets through quite a few 1911 pistols over the past half century. Every one of them has been lubed with a mix of beeswax and Vaseline (about 70/30), and 99% have been fueled with Bullseye. They have all been sized .452.

I have never had problems with pistol stoppage due to powder or lube fouling. I do clean after every range session.

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rojkoh posted this 12 April 2013

Chargar wrote: I have well over 1/4 million rounds of cast bullets through quite a few 1911 pistols over the past half century. Every one of them has been lubed with a mix of beeswax and Vaseline (about 70/30), and 99% have been fueled with Bullseye. They have all been sized .452.

I have never had problems with pistol stoppage due to powder or lube fouling. I do clean after every range session.

Nothing personal, but I've fired more than that through 1911s. Given the amount of shooters during the 70's and 80's shooting IPSC before it went the way of the race guns, We continually went through of “Which is the best powder” for years. Unique was dropped fairly quickly, Bullseye, faltered in the long run because of how filthy it is and the fact you have to work to get positive ignition every time. Even with the current Bullseye being different from what it once was, ask Ed Harris about this one.

Understand that in those days we shot 1911s that were “tight” for accuracy. Something I don't worry about much anymore. But you get something like a exceptionally nice Les Baer.... they have to be kept clean.

Shot my 1911A1 NM two or three times in the past couple of weeks, haven't had the time to clean it (buried in rifle work). Not worried that it'll jam.. But I don't like to tear down a good 1911 everytime I use it (I field clean) because it does add wear and tear to the weapon.

As an afterthought: I can tell you how many rounds it takes to wear out a good Colt 70 series. I can tell you how many rounds it takes to jam a 1911 using FFGf. Some of the things we've done over the years. One of my old friends owned the Bianci cup for years. Rob Latham and Brian Enos were “new kids” in our days. That steel plate I'm playing with in the picture was 101 yards away.

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mckg posted this 14 April 2013

rojkoh, question for you; but everybody can input...

I read some of your posts talking about the H&G 68 and the question is: with or without bevel base (other calibers are concerned too)?

Most of my molds are away, kinda, and I'm wondering if I should bother about that detail for the replacements.

Thanks

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rojkoh posted this 14 April 2013

mckg wrote: rojkoh, question for you; but everybody can input...

I read some of your posts talking about the H&G 68 and the question is: with or without bevel base (other calibers are concerned too)?

Most of my molds are away, kinda, and I'm wondering if I should bother about that detail for the replacements.

Thanks

No sweat, it's what some of us old farts are around for.

Bevel base for all of mine, ESPECIALLY the .45acp. Reasons:

1) easier and more efficient to load, especially with a progressive press and basically easier and fasterwith any press.

2) At the higher pressures/temps, a bevel base won't add the possibility of fouling the way level base bullets can

3) Flat base bullets can get damaged during loading if not properly aligned. Which leads to another problem, if the bullet isn't properly aligned and an edge catches the lip of the case, damaged case.

4) Bevel base are more forgiving even if you don't bell the case properly. You might get some lead shaving, but it'll seat.

Blah blah blah blah, I think that ought give you enough to justify a decision without putting you to sleep.

Serious suggestion: For a .45acp bullet (drum roll please)

H&G 68.

If you have a problem finding a mold, ask Ed Harris, he tends to find them and someone just mentioned that accurate molds might have a clone, this I can't tell you.

Because of health reasons, I shy away from actually molding anymore and I just found a good source in Tx. at decent prices. Let me know and when I get my first lot (waiting for a production run)... I'll pass it on. I just tried someone else, but wasn't happy with them, see below. On the left the “not so good one", on the right, the good kind. Magma lube, burns and shoots nicely. One of the left is 453, where it should be 452 and that damn lube got everywhere. Had to clean my seating die 3 times. Just plain nasty!

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mckg posted this 14 April 2013

Thanks; I had one made by LEE (452-200-SWC) indeed very easy to load (specially in the ROA :cool:) and as accurate as my other molds, if I remember correctly.

I have since done better with the RF, but cannot compare directly with the lost “68".

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rojkoh posted this 14 April 2013

mckg wrote: Thanks; I had one made by LEE (452-200-SWC) indeed very easy to load (specially in the ROA :cool:) and as accurate as my other molds, if I remember correctly.

I have since done better with the RF, but cannot compare directly with the lost “68".

No sweat, it's sometimes what us old farts are good for!

Let me know if you need anything else, I find this forum to be refreshing after all the “nonsense” (yes the PC term) on most other forums.

Let us know what you're shooting and what kind of load, we'll see if we can help.

back in the “day", used to burn a LOT of .45 and for the cowboy matches a lot of .38spl (mainly). I have shot a lot of other calibers and I know a lot of the guys are shooting .40 these days... I'm sticking with what I know works. ;)

PS one serious note, we used to shoot out to 200 yards with the .45... just because. The 68 does nicely once you find that accurate load (if you want to tune it)... I normally use 4.7 or 5.0 of 231 for practice.. serious loads are 5.8. Out of any 1911 I've tried from a Litchman Simerling, to OMs, to my LWC to 5” Govt to race guns, the H&G 68 type bullet typically works nicely. If there's a problem, you know where to send a nastygram! ;)

That 12” plate in the pic was 101 yards from where I was standing. Still use the weaver, Bob was a good guy and it got passed to a lot of spec ops and law enforcement people that came to SoCal when IPSC was young and Cooper was active in it. But only complaint: Never run the Cooper assault.. to damn many people got hurt on that one. I broke my knee in 78 on that one.

I've used a lot of molds and do have an H&G. My all time favorite was a Lyman mold for the 44. a .205 grain SWC bevel base. Great squirrel gun (44/40). It was an early Navy arms Yellowboy with octagonal barrel. loved it.

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mckg posted this 14 April 2013

rojkoh wrote: the H&G 68 type bullet typically works nicely. If there's a problem, you know where to send a nastygram! ;)

Yeah... Feeding :) Some of my buddies got almost resentful because my ammo didn't feed in their guns; like if I was tailoring my “match” ammo to work only for me lol.

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