Hang Fire

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  • Last Post 02 January 2013
mike morrison posted this 01 January 2013

First let me wish everyone a Happy New Year.

What causes a hangfire?? Let me explain my question. Yesterday i reloaaded and shot some 222 Remington. I loaded these with some Wolf small rifle magnun primers that i bought because they were cheap. I loaded fifty rounds and went to the range to shoot. the first five or six shot with no events then i started getting hangfires the delay was not the same from shot to shot. i had three that i tried five times to fire and no good. these were advertised as having the same power as standard except the metal was thicker for more strength in heavy high pressure loads for the .223. after this i primed ten 38 cases with the primers and put them in a single action and they all fired with no hesitation. Is the hangfire because of not heavy enough force by the firingpin? or just bad product. firing in the pistol makes me think it is pin strike force. Never had this problem so am miffed. What do you know-think. m

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Lefty posted this 01 January 2013

Mike two thoughts- try cleaning the firing pin/spring assembly just to make sure everything is moving freely. I also encountered a similar problem once when I cleaned my primer pockets too much causing the primers to seat too deeply. both Remingtons and Wolfs misfired for me until the light bulb went on. Jim

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delmarskid1 posted this 01 January 2013

I had trouble seating Wolf primers deep enough. They are a little harder and took more pressure to seat fully.  When the primers are “high” this makes a set up like a light hit from the firing pin as the primer gets seated into it's pocket as it is being fired.  Kind of like a shock absorber or spring under a seat.  If it is primer related this may be worth looking at.

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onondaga posted this 01 January 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=61>mike morrison:

I can add to the answers you have gotten so far. Powder selection and charge volume is the most predictable cause if your primers have no more power than standard primers as the manufacturer claims. Please verify that as it could be the principle cause of your hang-fires.

Firing pins either explode a primer compound or they don't and then the result is only a misfire if the primer doesn't explode. Primer compound detonates, it does not burn like gun powder-- there is no halfway fizzle with detonation compounds in primers to cause a hang-fire. However some specific, severe primer contamination can chemically change the detonation compound into a propellant that burns but doesn't explode after percussion of the compound by the firing pin. That specific chemical contamination is very rare.

The explosion of a primer does the same as any other explosive. It blasts a high speed shock-wave and fire.

The charge in the cartridge case has to be compatible with the explosion of the primer to light. There is a  balance that causes good dependable charge lighting that can be disturbed. Specific charges that are effected by the shock-wave in a form of turbulence that keeps the charge of propellant from lighting is possible. Specific charges can experience a turbulence that delays ignition of the propellant.  Light charges with excessive airspace in the case have the highest potential for this type of hang-fire.

If your charge is filling 80% of the case or more with a recommended charge weight and recommended powder the shock-wave turbulence type of hang-fires are very rare.

If your volume is good and the charge/powder is a recommended one but you are still getting hang-fires, contamination of many types will do this or weather combined with leaky primer seal or leaky bullet seal allowing moisture or chemical condensation contaminating your powder is the cause.

If you are using a low volume, fast burning pistol type propellant, you can have hang-fire even with a recommended charge when your primer is not matched to the job as recommended. Magnum primers used to light tiny charges cause misfire and hang fire. This is why they are not recommended for lighting tiny charges. The shock-wave turbulence is too extreme. A magnum primer can also push the bullet down the bore before an imbalanced charge even has a chance to light. This can make a rifle act less like a rifle and more like a pipe bomb.

You can also get a hang-fire if there is insufficient pressure during ignition to completely light the charge. This is commonly caused by using propellants with lower burn rate than recommended propellants or propellants at the bottom or top of recommended charges that are at the low end of burn rate propellants that are recommended. You can upset the balance of ignition as lots of loaders are very aware.

Sometimes a heavier bullet or a tighter crimp will compensate and repair the balance with slower powders, Sometimes fillers will too. Sometimes you get hurt or your rifle does. Powder manufacturers and bullet manufacturers recommendations are to protect you, your firearms and their profits from being lost in court. So, they are very serious are about their recommendations.

Gary

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Chargar posted this 01 January 2013

I have had very few hang fires, the last one being on some very old Remington Palma Match ammo about 1961. I was firing a National Match 1903.

At that time, the “big boys” taught to count from 10 before ejecting the round and don't catch it with your hand, but let it hit the ground. Seemed like sage advise to me.

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 01 January 2013

Good morning Mike.  Many years ago, I had a problem with a particular brand of primers.  It was a proven load, and had never given me any problems in the past.  I was shooting a revolver, that had proven to be very reliable.  I had run out of primers and switched to a new carton of the same primers I had been using, but obviously from a different lot. 

When I pulled the trigger, there was a poof and the bullet was lodged in the barrel.  I opened the cylinder and found partly burned powder.  I removed the bullet because I happened to usually have a rod in my range kit at the time.  I resumed shooting and it happened again.  I kept those two cases seperate and checked them closely after I returned home. 

I found that for whatever reason, the priming had fired but apparently not exploded, and the powder had failed to burn completely.  The primer cup had a fractured look rather than the normal smooth appearance at the edges and around the firing pin indent.  There appeared to be a problem with the primer cup which was either too hard or brittle. 

Regardless of others experience, there was an issue with those primers which would only partly ignite the powder in that particular firearm.  They fired properly in a contender, but they might have a heavy impact on the firing pin since they are also required to set off rifle primers as well as pistol primers. 

I am not arguing or debating others statements, just that it did not appear to be a clear case of work or doesn't work in my situation.   This occurred about 1988-89 so no further details will be available.  Duane

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 01 January 2013

Mike - read up on BRISANCE. In primers it is the measure of how aggressive the shock from the primer is on the powder. It means 'to break'.

Powders are often coated with graphite. Some are harder to ingite than others.

There are charts that list the relative brisance of each brand and type of primer.

(Once in a while I've experienced the powder charge did not ignite - but is stuck together in the case in a clump.)

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pat i. posted this 01 January 2013

Happy New Year to you too. Are you full length sizing your .222 cases or using new brass? Try backing out the die a bit if full length sizing or neck size some fired brass and see what happens.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 01 January 2013

pat i. wrote: Happy New Year to you too. Are you full length sizing your .222 cases or using new brass? Try backing out the die a bit if full length sizing or neck size some fired brass and see what happens.

Suggesting maybe too much clearance, hence possible lightening of primer strike. Good observation and test.

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mike morrison posted this 01 January 2013

thank you to all. the cases were old. I got them in the mid 70's as fired cases. I loaded them and shot them back then. the week before this experience i shot them and these are the ones I loaded. some had splits in the neck and were discarded. they were neck sized. From what has been said here the powder may be the problem. In a couple of the ones that did not fire at all when i ejected the case the powder was clumped and stuck together. the bullet had been moved forward just enough to stick in the barrel and the case debulleted on ejection. The powder charge is the recomended starting load from the Lyman book. The powder is old. Purchased from Hodgdon in the mid 70's. I suppose a military pull down. It is in a paper bag labled H-335-OS use 3031 data. I have shot this load before but a long time ago. Have also used the powedr in 30-30 with 170grgc with great success. Yesterday I discarded all the old cases and made 30 new ones from .223 once fired brass. uped the powder charge to the mid point and will try it today weather permiting. If the same problem occurs i will change primers and try again to see if it is in fact the primer..and load some with different powder also. will let you know.

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onondaga posted this 01 January 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=61>mike morrison:

Call or email Hodgdon, I believe they will tell you in a polite way that Hodgdon powder bought from them in the 1970s and stored in a paper bag should not be expected to perform well or safely. They will suggest that you discard the powder safely rather than experiment with it and risk damage to your firearm or injury to yourself or others.

A smell test will also verify my recommendation. Get some new H335, bring it up directly to your nose and get a full smell of it. Then do the same with your old powder. They should smell exactly the same. They won't, because at that age and type of storage, the old powder has begun to self oxidize and is dangerous.

Gary

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mike morrison posted this 01 January 2013

Thanks Gary, good advice. m

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Pigslayer posted this 01 January 2013

Wow! Very interesting & informative tutorial from all! I guess that I am lucky & that I've never had a hangfire in a centerfire firearm even though some of my primers/powder have stayed on the shelf for up to 10 years. The seasonal climate changes seemed not to bother. As implied above, I've never experimented with charges/primers. The thoughts of playing those games scared me. I remember when I got my first Sierra Bullets manual (1972). I think I read every word on every page. I keep five different manuals on the bench and consider them all to be “required reading” if not “fun” reading. I did though read a post on another forum that had to do with S&B primers not going “bang” and that one may want to shy away from them. While Tula primers seem to work just fine. I recently bought a couple thousand Tula primers & have loaded some but have not shot any. We'll see.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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cityboy posted this 01 January 2013

The powder is over the hill and should be discarded in a safe manner. I got rid of some old powder by spreading it in the shrubs.

Jim

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CB posted this 01 January 2013

cityboy wrote: The powder is over the hill and should be discarded in a safe manner. I got rid of some old powder by spreading it in the shrubs.

Jim

Yes, it is good fertilizer :)

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mike morrison posted this 01 January 2013

I bought some Tula primers a year ago. So far the ones I have used worked well. m

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onondaga posted this 01 January 2013

Mike,

I hope you got my edit about the smell test. That was added after your reply.

If your powder had been stored in a good air tight container, it would still be questionable because of the age of the powder. Thirty years is pushing the age and probability of powder self oxidation even with the best of storage.

I disposed of over 20 pounds of various powders about 5 years ago as they had all changed their smell and were over 30 years old.

Gary

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Pigslayer posted this 01 January 2013

Gary, You & I have been around a while so . . . do you remember buying H4831 in the square paper container back in the eary seventies? It was $1.98 a pound. I believe that that was military surplus powder. Wondering how old it was then?

     Oh . . . I love that pungent, acrid almost acidic smell  of a freshly opened container of powder. I know . . . I'm sick.

Pat

 

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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mike morrison posted this 01 January 2013

Gary, This powder does not have a bad smell and looks fine. The paper bags it came in have a waxed paper apperance on the inside top folded and kept in place with a wire inthe tab to hold it. not an air tight seal. I think I am on the last pound so not a great loss. As best i can remember we bought this thru the gun club at that time direct from Hodgdon. $1.50 lb or maybe less. since i have loades 30 rounds i think i will give them a try. I will stop on the first hang fire if it happens. Thanks to everyone for your help and info. mike

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onondaga posted this 01 January 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6171>Pigslayer:

I never got powder that cheap! I use 4831 now, but didn't back then.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=61>mike morrison: Powder doesn't have to smell bad, just different from new powder of the same specification to be questionable. The human nose can differentiate smell differences better than any computerized gadget is capable. There is no artificially intelligent nose even close to the one on your face for detecting differences in smells.

Gary

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Pigslayer posted this 01 January 2013

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6171>Pigslayer:

I never got powder that cheap! I use 4831 now, but didn't back then.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=61>mike morrison: Powder doesn't have to smell bad, just different from new powder of the same specification to be questionable. The human nose can differentiate smell differences better than any computerized gadget is capable. There is no artificially intelligent nose even close to the one on your face for detecting differences in smells.

Gary Yea, now that I remember, the price doubled as soon as the surplus supplies ran out. Pat

 

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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