Hang Fire

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  • Last Post 02 January 2013
mike morrison posted this 01 January 2013

First let me wish everyone a Happy New Year.

What causes a hangfire?? Let me explain my question. Yesterday i reloaaded and shot some 222 Remington. I loaded these with some Wolf small rifle magnun primers that i bought because they were cheap. I loaded fifty rounds and went to the range to shoot. the first five or six shot with no events then i started getting hangfires the delay was not the same from shot to shot. i had three that i tried five times to fire and no good. these were advertised as having the same power as standard except the metal was thicker for more strength in heavy high pressure loads for the .223. after this i primed ten 38 cases with the primers and put them in a single action and they all fired with no hesitation. Is the hangfire because of not heavy enough force by the firingpin? or just bad product. firing in the pistol makes me think it is pin strike force. Never had this problem so am miffed. What do you know-think. m

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6pt-sika posted this 02 January 2013

Pigslayer wrote:  . do you remember buying H4831 in the square paper container back in the eary seventies?   I have an empty one of those containers a now deceased skeet shooting friend gave me around 1990 or so .

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onondaga posted this 02 January 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1118>Old Coot:

I shoot 500+ rounds .458 Win Mag a year.

I am one of the loaders that just sees no reason whatsoever to de-prime cases before tumbling them. One of the many benefits of not de-priming before tumbling is that you never even have to look at flash holes or primer pockets to see if there is any particle of walnut stuck in the pocket or flash hole. The primers are punched out with the sizing die after polishing,  then case lubing for sizing; the primer pin clears the flash hole..Then there is no problem with nut particles.

I polish fired brass, lube the brass outside with Mink Oil and inside neck with mica brushing. The mica brushing Frankford Arsenal neck lube kit really removes powder fouling from inside necks and lubes with mica in one push and pull.

Walnut or cob media will not clean primer pockets. I use a pocket cleaning tool for that when I remove the case from the shell holder after sizing.

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mike morrison posted this 02 January 2013

old coot, this may verry well have been the problem. I did learn a lot from the discussion of everyone. great folks with a vast amount of knowledge here. m

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Brodie posted this 02 January 2013

I used to get a lot of hang fires and failure to fire when shooting my 458 Win.  I seems the primer holes were just large enough to let the occasional granule of ground walnut hull stick in the opening.  This caused to primer to ignite “explode” and push the bullet into the throat where it stuck and dump a large amount of Imr 3031 into the action when I opened to bolt.  Once I discovered this I took to going through alll the 458 cases and pushing that nasty little piece of hull out of the primer hole with an awl.   That cured the problem.  Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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mike morrison posted this 01 January 2013

Curosity got the best of me. Just went out and tried the ctg I had loaded with the new formed brass. shot 15 of the thirty with no hang fire. did increase the load a dab. pressure seemed to be good. maybe i had some contamination in some of the cases. don't know how, they were cleaned in corncob media. the media was new and it may have collected some moisture. who knows. will load and shoot some more before i decide to trash the powder. one other note here. when i got these primers i loaded fifteen rounds of 300blk same bullet 170grgc and loaded five with winchester sp primers, five with the tula spm primers and five with the wolf srm primers. then shot them over the chrony. don't have the data at my fingertips but it went like this most velosity average with the winchester second was with the tula and the least was with the wolf. there i determined the wolf was the weaker of all. this primer may not be hot enough for this powder. m

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grouch posted this 01 January 2013

The only persistant hang fires I've had were with a middle of the road load of H4895 in my 45 - 70. Only split second ones, but almost every shot. Never did come up with an explanation, just stopped using that powder in that rifle, and have never had another. Grouch

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Pigslayer posted this 01 January 2013

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6171>Pigslayer:

I never got powder that cheap! I use 4831 now, but didn't back then.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=61>mike morrison: Powder doesn't have to smell bad, just different from new powder of the same specification to be questionable. The human nose can differentiate smell differences better than any computerized gadget is capable. There is no artificially intelligent nose even close to the one on your face for detecting differences in smells.

Gary Yea, now that I remember, the price doubled as soon as the surplus supplies ran out. Pat

 

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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onondaga posted this 01 January 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6171>Pigslayer:

I never got powder that cheap! I use 4831 now, but didn't back then.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=61>mike morrison: Powder doesn't have to smell bad, just different from new powder of the same specification to be questionable. The human nose can differentiate smell differences better than any computerized gadget is capable. There is no artificially intelligent nose even close to the one on your face for detecting differences in smells.

Gary

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mike morrison posted this 01 January 2013

Gary, This powder does not have a bad smell and looks fine. The paper bags it came in have a waxed paper apperance on the inside top folded and kept in place with a wire inthe tab to hold it. not an air tight seal. I think I am on the last pound so not a great loss. As best i can remember we bought this thru the gun club at that time direct from Hodgdon. $1.50 lb or maybe less. since i have loades 30 rounds i think i will give them a try. I will stop on the first hang fire if it happens. Thanks to everyone for your help and info. mike

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Pigslayer posted this 01 January 2013

Gary, You & I have been around a while so . . . do you remember buying H4831 in the square paper container back in the eary seventies? It was $1.98 a pound. I believe that that was military surplus powder. Wondering how old it was then?

     Oh . . . I love that pungent, acrid almost acidic smell  of a freshly opened container of powder. I know . . . I'm sick.

Pat

 

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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onondaga posted this 01 January 2013

Mike,

I hope you got my edit about the smell test. That was added after your reply.

If your powder had been stored in a good air tight container, it would still be questionable because of the age of the powder. Thirty years is pushing the age and probability of powder self oxidation even with the best of storage.

I disposed of over 20 pounds of various powders about 5 years ago as they had all changed their smell and were over 30 years old.

Gary

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mike morrison posted this 01 January 2013

I bought some Tula primers a year ago. So far the ones I have used worked well. m

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CB posted this 01 January 2013

cityboy wrote: The powder is over the hill and should be discarded in a safe manner. I got rid of some old powder by spreading it in the shrubs.

Jim

Yes, it is good fertilizer :)

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cityboy posted this 01 January 2013

The powder is over the hill and should be discarded in a safe manner. I got rid of some old powder by spreading it in the shrubs.

Jim

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Pigslayer posted this 01 January 2013

Wow! Very interesting & informative tutorial from all! I guess that I am lucky & that I've never had a hangfire in a centerfire firearm even though some of my primers/powder have stayed on the shelf for up to 10 years. The seasonal climate changes seemed not to bother. As implied above, I've never experimented with charges/primers. The thoughts of playing those games scared me. I remember when I got my first Sierra Bullets manual (1972). I think I read every word on every page. I keep five different manuals on the bench and consider them all to be “required reading” if not “fun” reading. I did though read a post on another forum that had to do with S&B primers not going “bang” and that one may want to shy away from them. While Tula primers seem to work just fine. I recently bought a couple thousand Tula primers & have loaded some but have not shot any. We'll see.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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mike morrison posted this 01 January 2013

Thanks Gary, good advice. m

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onondaga posted this 01 January 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=61>mike morrison:

Call or email Hodgdon, I believe they will tell you in a polite way that Hodgdon powder bought from them in the 1970s and stored in a paper bag should not be expected to perform well or safely. They will suggest that you discard the powder safely rather than experiment with it and risk damage to your firearm or injury to yourself or others.

A smell test will also verify my recommendation. Get some new H335, bring it up directly to your nose and get a full smell of it. Then do the same with your old powder. They should smell exactly the same. They won't, because at that age and type of storage, the old powder has begun to self oxidize and is dangerous.

Gary

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mike morrison posted this 01 January 2013

thank you to all. the cases were old. I got them in the mid 70's as fired cases. I loaded them and shot them back then. the week before this experience i shot them and these are the ones I loaded. some had splits in the neck and were discarded. they were neck sized. From what has been said here the powder may be the problem. In a couple of the ones that did not fire at all when i ejected the case the powder was clumped and stuck together. the bullet had been moved forward just enough to stick in the barrel and the case debulleted on ejection. The powder charge is the recomended starting load from the Lyman book. The powder is old. Purchased from Hodgdon in the mid 70's. I suppose a military pull down. It is in a paper bag labled H-335-OS use 3031 data. I have shot this load before but a long time ago. Have also used the powedr in 30-30 with 170grgc with great success. Yesterday I discarded all the old cases and made 30 new ones from .223 once fired brass. uped the powder charge to the mid point and will try it today weather permiting. If the same problem occurs i will change primers and try again to see if it is in fact the primer..and load some with different powder also. will let you know.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 01 January 2013

pat i. wrote: Happy New Year to you too. Are you full length sizing your .222 cases or using new brass? Try backing out the die a bit if full length sizing or neck size some fired brass and see what happens.

Suggesting maybe too much clearance, hence possible lightening of primer strike. Good observation and test.

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pat i. posted this 01 January 2013

Happy New Year to you too. Are you full length sizing your .222 cases or using new brass? Try backing out the die a bit if full length sizing or neck size some fired brass and see what happens.

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