Help in deciding on hand cannon

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  • Last Post 19 September 2012
corerf posted this 17 September 2012

Good day to all of you. Haven't been able to even read a message due to an onslaught of work, thats a good thing. I mean for 6 months, kind of work.

So I am adjusting my compliment of handguns and on order to procure is a 5 shooter bigger than my Encore in 445 Supermag.

I want a DW 8 inch 7445 but I will not ever be in a position to stab one here in California, off roster, rare, expensive, did I mention rare and expensive?? So I have made inquiries into custom revolvers, Ruger rebuilds, etc. I don't like high pressure guns nor the fees associated with a Ruger remodel. The 445 SM is a proven killer at 200 yards. But as much as I'd like to stick with the 445, I'd like just a taste flatter trajectory in the same caliber. I'm an American, there is always more to be had.

So I have been getting pricing on the Magnum Research BFR in 10 inch and I really like the platform. Its almost an FA, but not quite. Its better than a Ruger, no barrel constriction, tighter and more attention to build for sure, scope mount included, freewheeled, tight/tight/tight. No offense to Ruger, just all of mine but one shoot like crap..... well I expect a lot of accuracy. Thats the Super Redhawk in 44 mag. 550-series serial number.

And so I am seeing my ability to buy in 444 Marlin, it can be loaded down to 44 mag and beyond 454 casull energy and I believe beyond. I can then launch 350 gr bullets if desired and use existing molds for bullets. Its lower pressure, less recoil (still massive), brass is not too expensive compared to handgun brass of similar power factor.

My 445 SM is for but one purpose, harvest. And for that there is one load that answers all calls. But it's a one shot wonder and I would like to carry a shorter chest mounted device that is capable of visually SCARING off a bear as well as harvesting one.

But the 460 Smith is interesting. It burns a bit less powder, much higher pressure, probably stuck more so shooting jacketed bullets (yuck and $$$$) and I have to retool completely from stem to stern. Also recoil should go up substantially for similar power and velocity factors. But still it is versatile, chambering all the way down to 45 LC (I dont shoot any 45 cal except my 1911 so it's a real leap for me to tool up)

So I am asking the crew here for insight. Contender shooters please speak up. I like the .430 bullet, so much so it's scary. Anybody own a BFR in any caliber??? Are you happy with the GUN, with your choice of cartridge, accuracy, fit and finish?? I can't afford an FA, even used!

I'd appreciate any help in coming to a final decision. I've looked at the 45/70 and its just too much bullet. I'd always be shooting/lobbing 400 plus grainers rather than 310/335's with a flatter trajectory. Granted the recoil may be less and a bigger bullet means more energy downwind. An express 45/70 just doesnt appeal and the 444M seems like it tops the 45/70 in smaller bullets by a large gap (under 400 gr)

Help me decide. Someone with a 444M please speak up and persuade me into the cartridge. I want nothing to do with a 500, a 475, etc. I like LONG, straight brass. And fueling the fire is the fact that the 445SM is the progeny of the 444M case! The parent of the 445SM has to be GOOD stock to come from.

I've added a poll, never done that before, seemed fun to try.

Thanks in advance.

Mike

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Ed Harris posted this 17 September 2012

Who is your health insurance with, and do you have good orthopaedic coverage? I can reccommend a good hand specialist.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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hunterspistol posted this 17 September 2012

:coffee    I don't know if you've noticed but Craig, 6ptsitka, posts a lot about his hunting rifles in 444 Marlin.   Seems to do really well for him.   Now, if you were going handgun 100%, I'd give the 45 Win Mag some thought.  It does provide a degree of recoil termed extreme. 

      I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are looking for.  There are a lot of long range calibers in silhouette shooting but, most don't have a large diameter.   You may have to design something that's closer to a 50 bmg!

    Ed isn't joking much, some of those contenders will eat your hand. 

     Ron

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corerf posted this 17 September 2012

I currently own and shoot 30-30 improved contenders in short barrels and several wildcats therein. 445 SM, 357 max, 44 Mag. All with as much juice as can be gotten.

Studies will prove that the recoil numbers for the 444M in a 10 inch config is not much worse than a 44M and on par with my 445 SM at anything short of max pressure loads (RE: the BFR). The gun is 4.8 lbs empty, thats a hell of a lot more weight than any contender I own, scope, holster, ammo included.

Im not after anything but 200-250 yard handgun hunting. The 30-30 Imp on 15 inch proves that with a poor rest, a grapefuit is no match at 200 -220 yards. Just not enough umph at that distance to produce a clean cast bullet kill with a fudge factor. The 6mm bullberry goes a bit further with the accuracy, distance and smaller targets. But an 80gr bullet can be trusted only so far to extinguish an animal, WAY OUT THERE. And so far I have not had success with cast on the 6MM.

I want a contraption that is a repeater, is scoped and can get me deer killing power at 200 Plus yards where I am comfortable making shots. My 445 SM will go 200 but its petering out at that distance. There is less fudge factor at 200 and beyond is not a fair shot on an animal. So ergo the 444M. Its doing at 200 yards what the 44 mag is at muzzle. The 445 does so at 100 yards. I have heard all the hype about 44 mags at 200, thats great. I appreciate that. But if the animal is heart lunged at 200 with a 240gr 44, doing 700 fps or less, a baseball bat would be more humane.

I don't want to carry a rifle, 7 lbs is not needed dangling from my shoulder or in my backpack.

I wont bust a bone, nor get hurt. It's fun to jest on this thread but I had hoped I'd get serious responses, not funny one liners. I'm not brittle yet. I have another 20 years to go before I worry about that. Ill hand my kids the gun when that happens and they can break parts off shooting it.

I want to stretch my handgun abilities. To do so, I need a bit more umph. Im not in the sticks hunting at 50, Im in open range and with a long shot offering upwards of 300. Its not macho, its needed power to hunt at distance. I don't want the biggest of anything. I'd build another custom contender if I needed that void filled in my life. I have enough single shot pistols.

I don't plink or spend huge amounts of time on the range. I work, hard, and live where I have to travel to shoot, sometimes great distances. You folks seem to pull the trigger daily. I am not on a farm or retired, I am running employees and projects. So the idea that I will go to the range weekly or out the back door and snuff out 50 rounds of 444M is a laugh. I might get to work up a load or two and them rely on it to make a kill out of state, once per year. So granted it will recoil, but I'll get hit harder at work DAILY than this WIMP GUN can dish out pain. Run a rotohammer for 6 hours chipping concrete and let me know if you'd rather work or shoot a hand cannon. Or drive 400 #12 1.5 inch self tappers into a corrugated deck pan at the Rose Bowl in a day, thru two layers and then question if the GUN RECOIL is really that bad. If you can lift your arms after the first 3 hours (as they spasm from fatigue into hour long cramps), I'll pay you a $100 on the spot. The gun is nothing compared to a day at work. Folks seem to forget that things in life deliver more pain than a guns recoil can.

You'll take the gun over work for sure!

The 445 SM in an 8 inch revolver basically ran the IHMSA for several years. Somehow folks survived, and moved on to bigger. The 444M isn't that much more than my SM, its more but not that much.

Now that I have clarified the request, thank you Ed and Ron for the info. I will be careful not to injure myself and shoot only tame handloads, not rifle based full house loads. The 45 Win Mag is out as it is not offered on the BFR and is a 45 cal round, I am trying to avoid the cal change. And if it should prove to be damaging me or capable of, then I will sell the gun to some other idiot who thinks along similar lines as I do. I am willing to risk a bit of cash and experiment on this one.

The question is ballistics and killing power at distance, cost effectiveness, versatility in loading.... over the long haul. Not if it's a good idea.

Im not trying to be rude to Ed or Ron, please don't take the above as poking at your responses. I do sincerely appreciate your help.

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onondaga posted this 17 September 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1362>corerf:

One of the cartridges you patently reject and dismiss has an option you may not be aware of.

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Ed Harris posted this 17 September 2012

hunterspistol wrote: :coffee        Ed isn't joking much, some of those contenders will eat your hand.  

I have the surgical scars to prove it, although what did the damage was firing multiple 5000 round endurance tests of Ruger Redhawks....  The .45-70 JD Jones Hand Cannon was a pussycat 8-)

These days if I need anything bigger than a .44 Magnum I use a rifle, and I don't use full loads very often in the .44 Super Blackhawk, mostly medium velocity rounds about 1050 fps with 250-gr. cast lead hollowpoint with 7.2 grs. of Bullseye...

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 18 September 2012

I shoot several hand cannons. Often called hand gonne. Largest is in golf-ball caliber and smallest is 90 caliber. Blackpowder only of course and quite pleasant to shoot.

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hunterspistol posted this 18 September 2012

:coffee    Coref, I don't doubt you work hard.  After viewing BFR's page on trajectory, I'll stand at my original suggestion.  Seems the 444 Marlin is the better cartridge. 

     Where you are shopping revolvers, I think that's the more serious consideration.   The 460 XVR is cool, no doubt but, like you, I don't much like the limitation of always using jacketed.  It's buying a gun to basically wear it out and then sell it off.  I thought about that one once when it came out.  Then again, if you don't shoot it much except hunting, it might be fine. 

      But as far as the BFR goes, yes, the 444 Marlin looks good.

     Ron

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tominct posted this 18 September 2012

Ed Harris wrote: Who is your health insurance with, and do you have good orthopaedic coverage? I can reccommend a good hand specialist.  Elbows too. A big time local IHMSA shooter who shot a lot of big stuff had to stop because of permanent damage to various upper body joints. They are meant to pivot, not get hit by a hammer!

  There's a lot of good heavy for the caliber 44 mag and 45 colt loads that will take anything in North America and possibly the world out there. And the above can be run at normal speeds for the times you don't need a hand howler.

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tturner53 posted this 18 September 2012

I voted for the .460 S&W. Not that I know a lot about these beasts but I have a single shot .444 rifle and wouldn't consider it in a handgun. You can shoot .45 Colt in a .460, I think...

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corerf posted this 19 September 2012

It's the 200 yard plus mark that I am trying to achieve. I am trying to keep from lobbing more than directing a bullet.

Does anyone shoot cast 454/460SW?? Any reports on leading, bullet temper required, etc?? If I have to shoot a steel bullet (well high lino or super HT 28+ BHN alloy) to keep the gun from fouling and to take the pressures, I feel like I am going in the wrong direction.

Anybody spend any time behind the 444M RIFLE shooting with a scope out to 200 yards? Not a Marlin (no offense, but they have traditionally limited accuracy out past 100 yards, so I have read) but maybe another platform. A T/C system in 444??

I understand the 460 is VERY accurate but as Ron said, I'm back to the J-Bullets to stand up to the torture. And I HATE copper, unless its in my 22-250, then it's ok. But only then---Maybe thats the most sensible way to go. But the recoil figures are worse, much worse than the 444M. Ballistics dont seem to support any improvement over the 444, they perform about the same in E and V.

Any Casull shooters here? I've not been hammered by the Casull yet. Compared to the full house 44 with a stout load of 296 and a 300 grain bullet, is it real, real bad? If the Casull is horrible even in a heavy gun (454C is supposed to be a step up from the 445 Supermag) then maybe the 460 running lighter loads is the key. Man I just hate to set up for casting 45 bullets. The 460 is more powder efficient than the 444 from the basic data I have seen. And it uses Pistol powders, not rifle like 444. That would be a plus. It seems like most folks have little or no success using fast powders in the 444M and holding accuracy. It takes 50gr of 4895 to make it go, or around 40 of 4198 and even in a 10 inch barrel, you still have to go with rifle data to make the accuracy.

This is as I have read, and everything on the internet is questionable.

I know 34gr of WC-680 in my 445SM (30% more than the 44) and a lee 310 FPGC push hard but there is no pain or fatigue. Its a happy place for me. My Encore is about the same weight as the BFR and my intentions are to load that 444 down to 445SM values.

Ok so the question is does anyone have a 454 Casull that they load cast for and how rediculous is it to have to work around???

Thats the new question. If the Casull cant be dealt with, neither will the 460!! And I dont care to shoot 45LC even at Ruger levels. Not enough gain in trajectory over a 300 gr 44 mag to make it worth while.

I am letting the info coming in marinate. I'm not set in any direction. I will try to gather more info on 454 Casull loading with cast. Someone twist my arm one way or the other.

On an aside:

I PURCHASED MY FIRST FREEDOM ARMS REVOLVER yesterday. A 10 inch Field in 44 MAG, replacing two Rugers, a SBH and SRH. It has one owner before me and he put a box or two thru it. Its AS NEW. I am very, very happy. My Seville in 357 MAX now has a friend to hang out with. I wont dare mention the price I paid. It was sensationally low. God is Good to me. I will miss the Rugers, for a few minutes.

So there is a Super Redhawk 7.5 inch now for sale, no scope but with rings. Has seen under 1000 rounds in the two owners. I have put about 300 cast and 100 jacketed thru it. Prior owner used it casually to impress friends.

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Tom Acheson posted this 19 September 2012

I went the other way. My deer hunting handgun is a 4.2-pound Dan Wesson revolver chambered in 414 SM. The case is about 1.6” long. I have 2 Hoch moulds; one 296-grain and the other a 325-grain. The MV is in the neighborhood of 1100-1150. Between the two moulds, this revolver has taken 16 Mule deer (Wyoming) and 2 White tail (MN). It likes H-4227, WW 680 (now obsolete) and VV N-110. Kilss have ranged between 8-feet and 160-yards. Entrance and exit wound openings in the chest cavity are both the same size. barrel length is 9” and it uses the original factory adjustable rear sight assembly.

Prior to the DW (1982-1986) I used a S&W Model 57 8 3/8” to take 6 Mule Deer. So that's 24 deer with a .41 cal. cast bullet and iron sights. If you do your part the revolver and load will do its part. But the best part...your hands are freed-up which is really helpful when climbing hills, grabbing tree branches or rock ledges and dragging deer.

The next project is to come up with a shot load for snakes. The last few years I've seen way too many rattlesnakes where I've been hunting. The first week in Oct. in WY is pretty cool and the snakes seem to be well sequestered but when things warm-up they like to be out and about. We walk probably 6-10 miles a day so you do need to pay attention to where your feet are landing!

FWIW

Tom

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corerf posted this 19 September 2012

Tom,

I'd go your direction in a HEARTBEAT! California has a roster that is missing DW firearms. So even if I find my dream gun, the 8 inch 445 SM in the model 7445 (originals tend to shake apart a bit),

I can't get it into the state unless I bribe a LEO into importing and then PPT selling it to me. And thats not going to happen.

I noticed the 414 is over 4 lbs. The BFR is right there with it in weight.

I can't stand to hike with a rifle. I like having my handguns on my chest and enjoy the freedom to move. I also have no issue with fatigue and making long shots with a pistol. X2 on everything you TYPED!

I envy your 414!! I have owned a model 15 and now own a 715 in 357 mag. Simply nothing runs sweeter or more accurate. Nothing.

I noticed your running Win 680 as I do. I have 24 lbs of it on hand. Wont part with any but if you want more I have a secret location that still will have upwards of another 100 lbs avail.

To all: I have decided to stick with the 444M. I have looked over the trajectory and energy tables thoroughly and the end result is less power downrange, flatter trajectory than the 445 SM but not so much against the 460. The 460 recoil will be excessive compared to the 444M, expense of starting over with 45 cal bullets will offset the purchase too much. I have also “read” that folks really like the 444M BFR with 350gr cast and it is very accurate with such due to the very fast twist barrel. Less accurate with the 240's.

I appreciate the help in deciding folks. When I get it I will post on the loading journey and maybe throw a pic or movie up.

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Tom Acheson posted this 19 September 2012

Just a minor clarification on the .414 SM. The gun started life as a DW 357 SM. A local gunsmith re-chambered the cylinder throats and installed a Douglas 1:14 twist barrel. We also installed a rib the length of the barrel something like a Colt Python has. There was no parent brass with 0.060” thick rims so we used 220 Swift cases (0.049” thick rims) and worked each one over in a lathe. Had to remove material a short distance above the rim. Those cases have been shot a lot! I first used the gun in IHMSA Unlimited category but simultaneously used it for hunting.

Along the way I bought some 414 brass from Starline but had to thin the rims a bit so they would chamber properly. Because .41 is my favorite revolver and Wyoming is my favorite place to hunt, I refer to the round as the .41 Wyoming. That's what is engraved on the side of the barrel.

Tom

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