Black Powder substitutes

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  • Last Post 29 January 2009
Lefty posted this 14 January 2007

I have hand loaded and shot cast bullets for years.  I have also hunted with muzzleloaders of and on for a while now.  However to date, I have no experience with black powder cartridge guns.  My question is do any of the black powder substitues like Clean Shot, Clear Shot, or 777 give good results in BPCR long range matches?  I will be shooting a Sharps 45-70.

Iknow that I should throw all of this stuff away and go buy fresh black powder, but at the moment, I feel frugal.

Lefty

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R. Dupraz posted this 15 January 2007

Hi Lefty:

I don't know if I can be of much help reference your question about substitute powders as I use only black in my BPC guns. All the BPCR shooters that I know also use black but that is not to say that all shooters do. I am sure that there are many who have good success with the substitutes and from what I know of them, there is no reason why they will not work for gong/buffalo matches and such. Last I knew though, Pyrodex is the only sub. allowed for BPCR silhouette by th NRA.

Although I have used Pyro. in muzzle loaders with good success, I don't have any experience with the others. From what I understand about them is that they are pretty much similar to black except for the fact that they all produce less fouling. I know that Pyro is measured the same and the same loading process is used for BPCR.

One good place for info regarding this is the Shiloh Sharps Forum. A lot of these guys that frequent this forum are hard headed black shooters but there are many who are not. Just do a search on the subject. I know this topic has come up fairly frequently there in the past over there.

One good reference is the Spg Lubricants BP Cartridge Reloading Manual. Another is the 25th edition of the Hodgdon loading manual. Also. several of the black powder books written by Sam Fadala. As well as the Lyman books.

I would also search these powder manufacturers out on the internet. Some of them may have the info that you are looking for or just contact them.

Sorry that I couldn't offer more regarding your question. I shoot mostly long range buff/gong matches and NRA midrange BPCR. To get thumped in the shoulder, see the smoke and then hear that 540 grainer smack the 1000 yd. buff is more than a hoot!

So, about the only thing that I can really offer is just get some loading data for your .45-70 using the powders that you have and try some loads. If you have any other questions ref. the BPCR all ya gotta do is ask.

Regards

R. Dupraz  

 

   

 

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Lefty posted this 16 January 2007

Thank you for the reply.  I had done enough research on the internet to know that there wasn't alot of data or experience out there with substitues other than pyrodex.  I do have the SPG reloading book by Ventuino and Garbe.  I also have Venturino's new book on shooting the “Buffalo Rifles".  Both are excellent and helpful

I think I will play with the “substitutes” in one of my hunting rifles but stick with black powder in the sharps.

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Daryl S posted this 19 January 2007

When I tested Pyrodex against real black powder, I found the velocity extremes for pyrodex to be up to 3 times those of black powder. This, os course, is not good for long range shooting, as increased elevation dispersion is the outcome. I was getting variations of less than 10 feet per second with black powder resulting in excellent accuracy & round groups, but with the same loading techniques and regime with pyrodex, groups became erratic with windage as well as elevation dispersion. The Pyrodex velocity spreads were generally from 20fps to 26fps. I gave it up as not suitable - for me, but do know that some people use it and swear by it. Perhaps other loading techniques work better with it. Too much lube may have been my problem.

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Daryl S posted this 21 January 2007

Has anyone tried Black Mag 3? In my .450 Alaskan it developed 200fps higher velocities than real BP for the ssme loads.

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John Boy posted this 21 January 2007

Lefty ... I'm about a 98% pure black shooter but have fiddled with Triple 777.  Burns hotter and velocities are higher than BP.

Best I was able to do was a 2.75” x 7” group at 600yds for 5 shots.  Recipe: DD/PRS Big Lube 45-70 BP bullet ... 485gr 1:20 - 0.480 (soywax based lube) 58gr volume - FFg Triple 777 No wad CCI 200 AV - 1409 SD - 10 Energy - 17,573

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Mnshooter posted this 22 January 2007

An ideal source for BPC shooting and information about substitutes are the books by Matthews available form most sporting catalogs such a Cabelas. Pyrodex is covered in his books. My own experience with pyrodex was that the Select was pretty good and the regular RS I had not so good. It makes good hunting loads which develop a little more velocity than some black. I still tend to like to use black powder for this type of shooting as that is what it is about.

Mnshooter

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Lefty posted this 22 January 2007

I like 777 in my 50 cal in line.  However, I have settled on FFFG for that application.  Hodgdon shows both FFFG and FFG for the 50 cal application.  Their literature seems to show FFG loads only for the 45-70.  Has anyone seen or tried loads of FFFG 777 for the 45-70?

Lefty

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Daryl S posted this 03 February 2007

Accurate Arms found a .50 3-1/4", shooting 450gr. bullets with 140gr. of 2F produced 28,000PSI. I wonder how much pressure is produced by the 150gr.3F and T-7 charges some guys put in those soft steel, skinny 15/16” inline barrels?

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kjg posted this 25 February 2008

I have tried evrything that is availible, the reason, sometimes the coveted black is hard to comeby, and for a flint lock shooter, it is unquestionable hands down to the real stuff, but resently I have experamented with pinnicle and it goes bang just like black does and just as fast too, but it still needs 3fg for real good ignition, have been planning on loading it in my 45-70 but havent done so but I'm getting the bug again.keving

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DonH posted this 27 February 2008

I shoot a good deal of BPC competition. I personally know of no one who says they have obtained better accuracy from the substitutes than from a good BP load. Of course, if the fouling is less, somewhat better accuracy may be maintained over longer strings of shots. My own view of this is that if I make the choice to shoot in BPC competition then I should accept the limitations which go along with it, just as our forefathers did. This includes wiping the bore between shots or using a blow tube to keep the fouling soft. A search of various web sites dealing with this subject will reveal that top shooters have found thier match-winning accuracy with black powder and not with the substitutes.

If the idea is to attempt to reduce fouling in the bore over a string of shots then subs have some merit. If the reason for their use is “ease of cleaning” then, IMO, a lack of experience is revealed. Black powder cartridge rifles ARE NOT hard to clean after shootin even 60 - 70 shots in a match. My rifles clean up as fast if not faster than high powers using jacketd bullets when the latter are given proper bore cleaning. I hAVE used a considerable amount of Pyrodex in muzzleloaders and it requires at least as much cleaning as BP.

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kjg posted this 27 February 2008

  the only reason that I have experamented with them others is for one reason only!

When they finally up and ban black powder and eventually they will, we'll need a suplimet to shoot with and pinnicle is the only thing that seemed to work well out if a flint lock rifle,I have tried others and it works every time, by the way this rifle and others like it are customs built by me, and are not kit guns but everything hand made, I trully don't like the fake substitutes, but i'm also a realist.

 Goex is the way.          kjg:coffee

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DonH posted this 28 February 2008

As I said before, I have used Pyrodex in muzzleloaders. To date I have not tried the others BP subs but may in ther future. I view them as re-inventing the wheel - kinda like Lesmok and Semi-smokeless of a hundred years ago to be bulk loaded in place of black powder. I don't hold these propellants in the contempt many others do, I just don't believe they are automatically better than black powder. They are billed as a panacea to every ill people associate with black powder and sold along with all the other stuff for the modern muzzleloader hunter who doesn't really want to be a muzzlelosader hunter.

As to performance in cartridges, it doesn't semm to be hard to achieve velocity standard deviations in single digits with well-tuned BP loads. This translates directly to the target, taking away much of the up and down from inconsistent velocities. To date I have not seen that the subs deliver this kind of consistency. My position is to use whatever powder that trips your trigger, just don't automatically accept the bill of goods sold by the makers of the BP sub powders. After all it is their best interest to show their products as better in every way.

You may be right about BP being banned someday but I'm not so sure ALL powders won't be banned, as well as the guns to use them in. One way to help assure the availibility of BP is to buy it. Financially sound companies are in better position to stick up for their industries.

That's my two (or maybe three) cents worth.

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alleyyooper posted this 03 May 2008

Might just as well say real black powder is baned in this area. Due to the rules of storage it is so much easier for the local gun shops to stock the subs. Nearest place to buy RBP here is 27 miles and not every one can pay a hasmat fee for just a couple of pounds or the gas to drive so far.

I use triple 7 in all my muzzle loaders cap locks included with good results using #11 CCI mag caps.

 

:D Al 

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kjg posted this 03 May 2008

 LOOK why can't you people order your powder and ship to were you live , when you do not . it gives them all the fuel they need to ban it, now grafs and son ships in small lots, powder inc. does to and I'll be willing to bet others do to, and you can always find othes who would go in with you in the michigan area, now get out there and get your powder, waiting and thinking, we'll be able to get it is nuts,espcialy were obama and clinton are conserned.kjg

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CB posted this 07 May 2008

I think it is the additional cost of the hazmat fee that deters most people from ordering powder online or to have it shipped.

If you do it smart and get several people to go in on a single order to maximize the order quanity you can reduce the overall cost of the additional hazmat fee.

I know that powder horn will sometimes wave the hazmat fee if someone with a C&R FFL orders the powder.

I also recently read an article in Gun Tests on BP subs and according to their test results Blackhorn 209 shoots better than Triple 7..

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alleyyooper posted this 07 May 2008

If your going to pay the money they want for that blackhorn 209 that you have to use 209 primers, to get it to light off you might just as well order a couple of pounds of real black and pay a hasmat fee. At least the real black will light off with a normal #11 cap in most cases.

I'll just stick with the T7 I paid $11.00 a pound for.

:D Al 

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codarnall posted this 08 May 2008

Here's a little tidbit to add to  your 2 or 3 cents worth.  Pyrodex is loaded with potassium perchlorate, extremely hydroscopic and extremely corrosive, and I don't even like the smell of it. -----Charlie

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Bob 11B50 posted this 29 January 2009

On the [email protected] list every now and then Bill Knight, a retired BP chemist, has commented on the BP substitutes. Dick Trenk a US representative of Pedrisoli makes a comment about the subs around Christmas time on the BP-L list and the BPCR list. These are well worth reading.

I would not use a sub in any of my guns. Unless you clean them very well right away you will have a tomatoe stake... if you are lucky.

Bob 11B50

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