Any Chassepot shooters out there?

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  • Last Post 20 June 2011
Mike Gordon posted this 09 November 2010

I just picked up a nice Chassepot Model 1866 needle gun.  A search on the internet shows that these aren't exactly common out there, but there are some folks that shoot them, mostly in Europe.   Since my great grand parents came from German occupied Alsace and Lorraine and always claimed to be French, I have some small connection to this veteran of the Franco Prussian war.

For those who don't know what it is, the Chassepot is a French military bolt action single shot rifle in 11mm that fired a combustible paper cartridge than also contained the primer.  The way I look at it, it's a black powder cartridge rifle for which I don't need brass nor dies, only a mold. (and I've learned that bullets intended for the 11mm Mauser  are perfectly suited for the Chassepot.)

So am I the only Chassepot owner (and soon to be shooter) in the U.S.?

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gregg posted this 10 November 2010

I have to bump this one .

I wish I was but not.:X

What are the prices of the rifles and how hard to find?? Use to handle a friends years ago.

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72coupe posted this 10 November 2010

Hey Mike post some pictures of that thing. I would like to see it.

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Mike Gordon posted this 11 November 2010

I disassembled the gun for cleaning before I even thought of asking about information here, so I didn't take any photos.  I appears to me that this rifle must have hung on a wall for about 100 years.  All of the interior surfaces (including the bore) are pristine but all of the exterior surfaces  have a fine coating of rust.  Fortunately the metal parts on French guns were finished bright, so no bluing or browning will be necessary .  As soon as I get the rifle back together I will snap some pictures.

My search for loading date has turned up a treasure trove of information.  One french website has step by step instructions for making cartridges and even recommends using the Lyman 457124 bullet (for which I already own the mold)

Here is the link to that website.  If you don't know French, just have Google translator translate the whole thing for you.

http://jp.sedent.free.fr/UNE%20CARTOUCHE%20IGNIFUGEE%20POUR%20LE%20FUSIL%20CHASSEPOT.htm

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raytear posted this 11 November 2010

Just wondering . . .

As I understand the needle-fire concept, the primer is in or on the base of the bullet and the extra-extra long firing pin pierces thru the paper cartridge and powder in order to fire the primer.

So, how do you go about priming such an outfit and what kind of primer or cap works for that?  Inquiring minds want to know.

Good shooting! RT

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Mike Gordon posted this 11 November 2010

From what I have read the Chassepot paper cartridge can use a standard musket percussion cap as a primer.  The cap is inverted and glued to the base of the paper case.  The needle pierces the base of the case upon firing  and continues moving  and also pierces the cap igniting the powder charge.  The French website that I provided the link for also suggests filling the cap with black powder to assist  ignition.  A rubber seal attached to the bolt head provides the gas seal.  From what I have read  cartridges can be made from regular craft paper and don't need to be nitrated.

As I researched the Chassepot cartridge, I realized that I already own nearly everything to make it shoot, the Lyman 457124 bullet mold, RWS musket caps and 2f black powder.  The only thing I really need is the rubber seal.

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primersp posted this 12 November 2010

i have ask for the rubber seal on an french forum

this the answer: home made
rubber plain washer 18mmx 5mm(find in hardware store) an center hole of 8m/m 2 of this make the same dimension of the original seal .(18mm x 10mm

hope i can help

ANDRE

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primersp posted this 12 November 2010

an another website for the chassepot http://guy.jachet.pagesperso- orange.fr/bandeau.htm

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Ed Harris posted this 12 November 2010

Thanks for posting this info. I don't have and have never fired one of these rifles, but if I come across one at a yard sale now I will not hesitate to buy one, if reasonable. 8-)

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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primersp posted this 13 November 2010

chassepot rifle are more scarce than GRAS some rifle GRAS were rebarelled with the chassepot barrel ,but often you find gras with smooth bore chamber for an 24 shell the very scarce and pricy is kropacheck in 11 m/m the bayonet of chassepot “yatagan” whas the only weapon on the municipal police “sergent de ville" since i belive the ww1

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Mike Gordon posted this 03 January 2011

After some work I finally got my French Chassepot needle gun free of surface rust and back together. As I said above, this rifle uses a paper cartridge that contains the primer in the base. Instead of a brass or copper cartridge to seal the breech, the Chassepot has a rubber obdurator that fits between the bolt and what is called the “pillar". Upon firing the expanding gas forces the pillar back causing the rubber obdurator to expand, sealing the breech. The European websites that offer loading info call for a using an 18 mm rubber washer, the closest here in the U.S. Is a ¾ washer which then needs some fitting. What follows is a rather lengthy account of my first attempt to make cartridges and shoot the rifle. Most of what I describe is more easily understood by looking at a photo, and much of my technique was taken directly from two french websites. My purpose was to make the rifle shoot with paper cartridges and not leak gas all over the shooter. I made cartridges out of a heavy kraft paper that my wife had laying around. The primers are RWS musket size percussion caps , filled with 3f black powder ( about 2 grains) and glued to a ½ inch disk punched out of a piece of stiff paper board ( an index card). The paper tube was wrapped around a section of a jointed shotgun cleaning rod and glued. The length of the tube should be around 70mm. The diameter of the tube should be around 12mm and since that is not a common size for a wooden dowel in the U.S. I used the jointed cleaning rod and built up the diameter with the same kraft paper that the cartridges were made of. One edge of the paper is cut with a pair of scissors that make a irregular ridgy cut. The female threaded end of the rod also serves to hold the primer and base disk for gluing to the tube. The disk is pushed through the tube, the ridgy end folded over and glued. To make the cartridges look better I glued another disk of kraft paper to the base. Bullets were cast from pure lead in a Lyman 457124 mold. I paper patched the bullets using white copier paper. The primed tubes were loaded with 60 grains of 2f GEOX black powder and a kraft paper disk placed on top. I originally planned on filling the remaining space in the cartridge case with cream of wheat, with another paper disk on top on the bullet placed top. I made up a few and tried chambering them(with the needle removed) but found my 70mm length cartridges would not permit me to close the bolt. I removed the bullet and cream of wheat and through trial an error removed about 10mm of the from of the cartridge case. I believed my 70mm cases would not chamber due to the thickness of the cartridge and the very think kraft paper I had made them from. All told I made up 15 cases. Ten of which I placed a dab of Thompson Center Wonder Lube 1000 under the base of the paper patched bullet (it is the only Black powder lube I had) and then glued the bullet to the case. The other five I intended to lube at the range. At the range I though I tried out the Chassepot at 50 yards. My first shot was with one of the pre-lubed cartridges. Upon pulling the trigger it went boom. My shot seemed about 15 inches high. Recoil was mild and there was no apparent gas leakage. I then placed a small flip video camera on the bench next to me, in order to see if I could see any gas leakage in subsequent shots. Here's a link to the video on youtube.  <url=

?v=Ti_orAoGKDo My second cartridge chambered easily enough and also went boom. My third cartridge would not chamber, so I removed the cartridge using the cleaning rod (Since the Chassepot uses no brass cartridge, it has no extractor.) . I then brushed out the chamber and bore, removing a lot of unburned paper. Placing the bolt back in the gun my next cartridge chambered easily and also went boom. After the first few shots the Chassepot needed to have its chamber brushed out after every shot otherwise the cartridges would not chamber. Accuracy was sort of dismal with the crude sights and my ten shot group at 50 yards was a horrible 8 inches across. The unlubed cartridges had more problems with some not firing at all. I believe the cause of this was the shorter length due to there being no lube sandwiched between the bullet and the powder. All in all I was satisfied that the Chassepot actually works. I need to make up a new batch of cartridges using a lighter, thinner kraft paper. I might also experiment with a different bullet, perhaps trying the lighter 330 grain gould bullet for the 45-70.

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delmarskid1 posted this 03 January 2011

Nicely done, I admit that I am a little jealous. Dress pattern paper is very tough and very thin. It may be a good cartridge body paper. I have used it for patches with very tight round balls. I greased them of course so they didn't burn.

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Mike Gordon posted this 15 March 2011

I managed to make it to the rifle range for my second try with my Chassepot rifle. My first time out I was plagued by the chamber becoming horribly fouled after two shots and some misfires. According to the more successful European shooters of the Chassepot, the fouling can be eliminated by treating the paper cartridges with a flame retardant. Unlike the Sharps percussion models where paper cartridges are treated to burn more completely, the Chassepot shoots cleaner when the paper doesn't burn but is instead ejected out the muzzle by the blast. Misfires, I discovered are caused by excess head space. Since the paper cartridge has no rim, a too short cartridge can seat too deeply and the needle fails to go deep enough to piece the percussion cap primer that is located inside the cartridge. I addressed these problems in my second batch of cartridges paying more attention to the overall length of each cartridge. As for a flame retardant no local fabric stores or craft stores had any so I made my own with a simple borax solution and painted it on after gluing the paper cartridges together. As for bullets I stayed with the Lyman 457124 cast from pure lead and paper patched. And unlike the first batch I did not glue the paper patched bullets to the paper cartridge tube. By doing that I was able to apply lube at the range, placing a dab of TC wonder lube on the base of each bullet and then placing it back in the paper case. On my first visit to the range I discovered that the lube would soak through the paper cartridges if it were applied before hand. At the range, I shot at 100 yards first. For my first shot I applied lube directly to the bullet instead of the base ( I thought it would be easier that withdrawing the paper patched bullet from the paper case.) I was rewarded with a misfire. Afterward I applied lube to the base of each bullet and thereby increased the length of each cartridge by a millimeter or two and had no misfires for the rest of the day. At 100 yards only three out of five shots made it to the paper. I feel my choice of target along with the Chassepot's crude sights and my own poor eyesight may have contributed to this poor result. I next moved my target to 50 yards where I at least had something of a group. Even though each subsequent cartridge chambered and fired easily, after about 15 shots I brushed out the chamber out of curiosity and was surprised to find a good deal of black flaky fouling falling out. I fired my last ten cartridges offhand at 50 yards as quickly as I could and discovered that accuracy was about the same as when I benched the rifle. Anyway, that's my latest report. Now that I have the reliability and fouling problems sorted out I need to focus on accuracy. I am including some photos and a link to youtube  of a video of my ten shots offhand.

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Mike Gordon posted this 15 March 2011

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Mike Gordon posted this 15 March 2011

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Mike Gordon posted this 15 March 2011

After looking over my previous posting and screwing up the posting of photos. I realized that  I forgot to add my loading information.  My longer paper cartridges permitted me to increase to powder charge.   For the sake of simplicity I used a 45-70 case filled with 2F GEOX black powder which measured out to 73 grains on my scale .  Additionally each musket percussion cap inside the case held  between two and three grains of 3F GEOX Black powder.  The extra powder inside the cap is another way to avoid misfires according to the European shooters whose reports I read.  Altogether this gives me in the neighborhood of 75 grains of black powder.  My Lyman 457124 bullets were cast from pure lead and I did not weigh them but my guess is that  they weigh more than the 385 grains listed in their catalog.

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gnoahhh posted this 15 March 2011

Just a suggestion: I would definitely try using nitrated paper for the cartridges. From my experience with making combustible cartridges (out of rice paper) for use in cap-and-ball revolvers, they leave no residue in the chambers allowing repeated firings without needing to clean said chambers.

Would sizing the bullets to fit the bore of the rifle, and lubing them normally, help with accuracy or is paper patching them a panacea that the French experimenters found to work? I'm really liking this thread.

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Mike Gordon posted this 28 April 2011

I took my Chassepot needle rifle out for the third time today, with what I feel was an increase in accuracy. Here is a five shot group at 50 yards Here is another five shot group shot at 100 yards The only change I made from my last time out was no paper patching each bullet.  I shot the Lyman 457124 bare except for a dab of Thompson Center Natural Lube 1000 applied to the base of each bullet before firing.  It makes little sense applying this lube before I get to the range since it soaks through the paper cartridge case. Here is a photo of some cartridges being prepared for shooting.  

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amberg rifleman posted this 30 April 2011

I have a Chassepot Rifle , But never Fired it Yet, Never knew How to Make the Paper Ammo for it, I would like to See Someone make a Video on Makeing the Ammo and Put that on You Tube to Be able to Watch Ammo being Made.

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amberg rifleman posted this 30 April 2011

Mike would You make a Ammo Video and Post on You Tube, On assembly of your Ammo ?

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Mike Gordon posted this 30 April 2011

I'll have to be honest and admit that I stole most of my loading info for the Chassepot off of the internet. But I will try to put together some video of how I do it.

Before you begin you will need to make a rubber obdurator to seal the breach. Here in the U.S. the best you can do is use ¾ inch flat washers. These will be too big at first and I use six or seven and after mounting them on a piece of steel rod ground them down on a belt sander while spinning. Don't overdue it and try to get them down to about 18mm. You'll need to go slowly and stop every once and a while place the washers on the removable bolt head and see if the bolt closes. A tight fit will cause the bolt to stick but will definitely no leak.

The best websites for the Chassepot are all European and most are not in English. This is no problem since you can have Google simply translate the entire webpage simply by pasting the URL onto their translator site.

The best website so far for making cartridges is in French and found here:

http://jp.sedent.free.fr/UNE%20CARTOUCHE%20IGNIFUGEE%20POUR%20LE%20FUSIL%20CHASSEPOT.htm>http://jp.sedent.free.fr/UNE%20CARTOUCHE%20IGNIFUGEE%20POUR%20LE%20FUSIL%20CHASSEPOT.htm

The Google translation to English is here:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fjp.sedent.free.fr%2FUNE%2520CARTOUCHE%2520IGNIFUGEE%2520POUR%2520LE%2520FUSIL%2520CHASSEPOT.htm>http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fjp.sedent.free.fr%2FUNE%2520CARTOUCHE%2520IGNIFUGEE%2520POUR%2520LE%2520FUSIL%2520CHASSEPOT.htm

If you follow these instructions you can make cartridges. My set up is a lot less elaborate using mostly scissors, dowels and glue and most importantly of all a section of jointed shotgun rod.

There is a German Club in Sommerda (the hometown of Nicholas von Dreyse the inventor of the needle rifle) that has matches each year but better yet has a good website with loading info for Chassepots and Dreyse needle guns.

Their loading info can be found here:

http://www.schmids-zuendnadelseite.de/technik.html>http://www.schmids-zuendnadelseite.de/technik.html

Better yet the Google translation from German to English is here:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fhttp://www.schmids-zuendnadelseite.de%2Ftechnik.html>http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fhttp://www.schmids-zuendnadelseite.de%2Ftechnik.html>http://www.schmids-zuendnadelseite.de%2Ftechnik.html>http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fhttp://www.schmids-zuendnadelseite.de%2Ftechnik.html

One good thing about Google translator is that if you click any links they too will be translated.

A really good discussion of recreating the original French cartridges complete with the correct bullet and silk covering can be found here in English (registration required)

http:/s.gunboards.com/showthread.php?8169-Model-1866-Chassepot-Can-I-fire-it

Of course if you just want to order unloaded paper cartridges complete with the correct bullet you can always order them from

http://www.rh-custom.se/category.php?id_category=32>http://www.rh-custom.se/category.php?idcategory=32

His prices are good and I would have simply ordered his premade cartridges but the shipping from Sweden is too costly. (You might also want to take a look at his Glock “accessories”)

For general information about the Chassepot another good website (again in French) is

http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/fusil%20d%27infanterie%20Mle%201866.html>http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/fusil%20d%27infanterie%20Mle%201866.html

The Google translation is here:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Farmesfrancaises.free.fr%2Ffusil%2520d%2527infanterie%2520Mle%25201866.html>http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Farmesfrancaises.free.fr%2Ffusil%2520d%2527infanterie%2520Mle%25201866.html

Take a look at the first photo on this website of the rear sight with the leaf folded forward exposing the short rage (150m) sight notch. Had I not seen this there I would have never found out the rifle has a short range notch hidden .

Anyway there is is. I will try and throw together some video of my technique, But most of what I have is borrowed. One thing I would warn you about is the amount of time needed to make up cartridges. Even after getting over the learning curve and dividing up the procedure so that you will only do one step at a time, my last batch of about 50 cartridges took about five hours altogether.

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