Ideal #1 alloy
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- Last Post 22 April 2011
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I sounds interesting as I have used some Cu containing babbitts to harden my alloys, but the mixes only contain about 1/2% Cu. One problem with higher levels is that the copper tends to solidify at the spout of bottom pour pots. That 1/2% I'm using definitely adds to the toughness of the alloy. I'll get back into this later, I have to check some of the old babbitt references I have.
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There's a very informative article by Wiljen on Cast Boolits (under Castpics, member articles) called the Arsenic myth. He's dealt with the copper percentage alloy some, and has some interesting insight. You wouldn't need linotype to harden it, that is the only real advantage.
Ron
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when casting aloy i use some solder for my tin it contains, %92 tin, %5 copper, and %3 silver, it is called sliverbright 100
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It's interesting that any previous discussion of copper treats it as an impurity to be removed from the melt. I wonder what the as-cast hardness would be of the Ideal #1 alloy? High-copper babbitt material could be blended with pure lead to achieve the 3%. Most alloys mentioned these days contain .25% copper or less.
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If you think about it, when the Lyman #1 was popular, everything would have been cast with a ladle. And the ladle was always kept in the pot to keep it hot. The problem with copper in the alloy today is the fact that it precititates and hardens at the nozzle in the bottom pour pots. That is the coldest part of a bottom pour pot. That would not have been an issue in the earlier days of casting. Duane
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That is an interesting fact Duane and quite true. I have seen a lot of copper bearing Babbitt material around lately and that could explain some of the problems with bottom pour pots I have read about.
Personally I don't have that issue as I am a ladle caster. I am surprised that someone hasn't come up with adding a heating element to the bottom of the pot to see if that resolves the problem.
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The only problem with a high Cu babbitt, is it's very high tin too. The highest % Cu babbitt i'm aware of is only 8% and that particular babbitt has a BHN of 29. Only way I can see to get 3% without getting a lot of tin, and antimony in your alloy would be directly introducing the Cu at a temp high enough to reach its melting point. If it worked, I'd become a ladle caster. What else was in the #1, just lead and Cu?
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Re-read the section last night. 3% copper, 7% antimony and the balance lead ( I believe there's a typo in my copy as it lists the lead content at 80% instead of 90).
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Getting there without resorting to the basic elements would require a high leaded tin bronze, C94300 might work, its composition is 69.5Cu, 25Pb, and 5.3Sn. Alloyed with Pb and Sn as it already is might get its melting point down to a workable level. Hmmm, time to get the graphing calculator out!
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There's a group buy going on at Cast Boolits run by Blammer (DJ) right now for some foundry lead with a slight amount of copper. I don't remember the exact composition though.
Ron
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OK, you guys got me going on this. I've submitted a request for a quote of the alloy I mentioned above, C94300, melting temp should be around 600F, it won't be the same as the Ideal #1, it will also contain Sn, but I should easily be able to get up to the 3% Cu. We'll then see about hardness, castability and such.
Received a quote, $7.89/lb, which is less than some babbitts, but I had to order a 14lb ingot. I guess it will all eventually fall into the pot. I had to go to several sources before finding the alloy. I have no problem what so ever with my alloy that contains 1/2% Cu, this should make for an interesting experiment.
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When you get it, if you could, let us know the hardness. I was thinking, in reference to another post I made about hunting bullets @1800 fps, that most alloys we can push that fast will fragment on impact at high impact velocities. It would really be interesting if you could derive an alloy just hard enough to push at higher velocities that might hold together better. Copper might add some toughness as well as hardness.
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Yes, I'll do that for you. Initially I'll try to get as close as possible to the formula you've given, then I'll be free to play with it a little and see if it's even worth the trouble. It's going to be a bugger, I can tell, somewhere I got the idea that the melt temp would be 600 degrees, then got digging around and found another table that states the liquidus temp as 1700, so I guess I'm going to have use a propane torch to get the alloy into my melting pot. I can tell you that a bit of copper does indeed add to the toughness of an alloy. I already use an alloy that contains 1/2% and recently cast some 300gr .454 bullets with it. Putting them on a hard surface and really smacking them with a small sledge, I didn't see any evidence of fragmenting. Ive got some 311284 hollowpoints cast of the same alloy, might see if I can recover a few of them from the berm after shooting them out of my Krag at about 2000fps.
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Well I struck out on trying to find some alloy to use to get that 3% Cu. The fellow at Rotometals did however offer to make the Ideal #1, for $2.50/lb, min of 100lbs. If anyone is interested in group buying it, without knowing what BHN it is, or how well it works, chime in. Worst that could happen is you'll have to add more lead to decrease the Cu percentage. If we group buy it, I'd be able go 20#.
Dollar Bill, knowing that tin is only slightly harder that lead, the formula for #1 is similar to some babbitts, except that the major portion is lead instead of tin. I'd therefore have to guess that the BHN of #1 would be 23 at the most. Heck, I'm already there with something that will respond to further heat treatment if needed.
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Would it work to use a flat file on the cooper then put the cooper filings in the melt??
Lillard
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No, the copper has to be introduced at a higher temp than we can typically produce. The alloy should melt somewher in the range of 6-700 Degrees. Ideal wouldn't market an alloy the average guy, in the late 1800's to early 1900s. couldn't melt on a campfire. I go for 50#, no problem.
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Well, then, I'll make mine 25#, so all we'll need is someone to go the other 25#. See my edited post above Dollar Bill. Like I said there, I'd estimate 23BHN at the most, but Cu adds a toughness that goes beyond the BHN numbers if you ask me. I think it's something Richard Lee left out of his ideas on pressure vs velocity because he was working only with alloys of Sn/Sb/Pb.
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higher tin content helps copper remain soluble.
i had to go to 10% tin to be able to mix in 3% copper at normal casting temps @750.
i was just cutting in @ 1/4” pieces of lamp cord
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I'll have to give that a try, my alloy already contains about 7% Sn.
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madsenshooter, ill go the other 25 lbs. the only snafu is it will be two weeks before i have the extra funds as money is always tight if february. if this is all right with you let me know
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