Ideal #1 alloy

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JetMech posted this 11 February 2010

Reading Townsend Whelen's book, The American Rifle, I came across this little tidbit. Ideal #1 alloy, which was formulated for high velocity cast bullets, had a 3% copper content. Ideal #2 is the same as Lyman #2. 

My question is: has anyone tried this alloy and what hardness can be expected from as-cast bullets? Are ther any advantages or disadvantages of using this alloy, and where can it be found or alloyed at home?

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madsenshooter posted this 14 February 2010

I sounds interesting as I have used some Cu containing babbitts to harden my alloys, but the mixes only contain about 1/2% Cu.  One problem with higher levels is that the copper tends to solidify at the spout of bottom pour pots.  That 1/2% I'm using definitely adds to the toughness of the alloy.  I'll get back into this later, I have to check some of the old babbitt references I have.

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hunterspistol posted this 14 February 2010

     There's a very informative article by Wiljen on Cast Boolits (under Castpics, member articles) called the Arsenic myth.  He's dealt with the copper percentage alloy some, and has some interesting insight.  You wouldn't need linotype to harden it, that is the only real advantage.

    Ron

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jppr26 posted this 15 February 2010

when casting aloy i use some solder for my tin it contains, %92 tin, %5 copper, and %3 silver, it is called sliverbright 100

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JetMech posted this 16 February 2010

It's interesting that any previous discussion of copper treats it as an impurity to be removed from the melt. I wonder what the as-cast hardness would be of the Ideal #1 alloy? High-copper babbitt material could be blended with pure lead to achieve the 3%. Most alloys mentioned these days contain .25% copper or less.

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 16 February 2010

If you think about it, when the Lyman #1 was popular, everything would have been cast with a ladle. And the ladle was always kept in the pot to keep it hot.  The problem with copper in the alloy today is the fact that it precititates and hardens at the nozzle in the bottom pour pots.  That is the coldest part of a bottom pour pot.  That would not have been an issue in the earlier days of casting.  Duane

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CB posted this 16 February 2010

That is an interesting fact Duane and quite true. I have seen a lot of copper bearing Babbitt material around lately and that could explain some of the problems with bottom pour pots I have read about.

Personally I don't have that issue as I am a ladle caster. I am surprised that someone hasn't come up with adding a heating element to the bottom of the pot to see if that resolves the problem.

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madsenshooter posted this 16 February 2010

The only problem with a high Cu babbitt, is it's very high tin too. The highest % Cu babbitt i'm aware of is only 8% and that particular babbitt has a BHN of 29. Only way I can see to get 3% without getting a lot of tin, and antimony in your alloy would be directly introducing the Cu at a temp high enough to reach its melting point. If it worked, I'd become a ladle caster. What else was in the #1, just lead and Cu?

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JetMech posted this 17 February 2010

Re-read the section last night. 3% copper, 7% antimony and the balance lead ( I believe there's a typo in my copy as it lists the lead content at 80% instead of 90).

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madsenshooter posted this 20 February 2010

Getting there without resorting to the basic elements would require a high leaded tin bronze, C94300 might work, its composition is 69.5Cu, 25Pb, and 5.3Sn. Alloyed with Pb and Sn as it already is might get its melting point down to a workable level.  Hmmm, time to get the graphing calculator out!

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hunterspistol posted this 20 February 2010

     There's a group buy going on at Cast Boolits run by Blammer (DJ) right now for some foundry lead with a slight amount of copper. I don't remember the exact composition though.

Ron

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madsenshooter posted this 22 February 2010

OK, you guys got me going on this.  I've submitted a request for a quote of the alloy I mentioned above, C94300, melting temp should be around 600F, it won't be the same as the Ideal #1, it will also contain Sn, but I should easily be able to get up to the 3% Cu.  We'll then see about hardness, castability and such.

Received a quote, $7.89/lb, which is less than some babbitts, but I had to order a 14lb ingot.  I guess it will all eventually fall into the pot.  I had to go to several sources before finding the alloy.  I have no problem what so ever with my alloy that contains 1/2% Cu, this should make for an interesting experiment.

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JetMech posted this 23 February 2010

When you get it, if you could, let us know the hardness. I was thinking, in reference to another post I made about hunting bullets @1800 fps, that  most alloys we can push that fast will fragment on impact at high impact velocities. It would really be interesting if you could derive an alloy just hard enough to push at higher velocities that might hold together better. Copper might add some toughness as well as hardness.

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madsenshooter posted this 23 February 2010

Yes, I'll do that for you.  Initially I'll try to get as close as possible to the formula you've given, then I'll be free to play with it a little and see if it's even worth the trouble.  It's going to be a bugger, I can tell, somewhere I got the idea that the melt temp would be 600 degrees, then got digging around and found another table that states the liquidus temp as 1700, so I guess I'm going to have use a propane torch to get the alloy into my melting pot.  I can tell you that a bit of copper does indeed add to the toughness of an alloy.  I already use an alloy that contains 1/2% and recently cast some 300gr .454 bullets with it.  Putting them on a hard surface and really smacking them with a small sledge, I didn't see any evidence of fragmenting.  Ive got some 311284 hollowpoints cast of the same alloy, might see if I can recover a few of them from the berm after shooting them out of my Krag at about 2000fps.

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madsenshooter posted this 24 February 2010

Well I struck out on trying to find some alloy to use to get that 3% Cu.  The fellow at Rotometals did however offer to make the Ideal #1, for $2.50/lb, min of 100lbs.  If anyone is interested in group buying it, without knowing what BHN it is, or how well it works, chime in.  Worst that could happen is you'll have to add more lead to decrease the Cu percentage.  If we group buy it, I'd be able go 20#.

Dollar Bill, knowing that tin is only slightly harder that lead, the formula for #1 is similar to some babbitts, except that the major portion is lead instead of tin.  I'd therefore have to guess that the BHN of #1 would be 23 at the most.  Heck, I'm already there with something that will respond to further heat treatment if needed.

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Lillard posted this 24 February 2010

Would it work to use a flat file on the cooper then put the cooper filings in the melt??

Lillard

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JetMech posted this 24 February 2010

No, the copper has to be introduced at a higher temp than we can typically produce. The alloy should melt somewher in the range of 6-700 Degrees. Ideal wouldn't market an alloy the average guy, in the late 1800's to early 1900s. couldn't melt on a campfire. I go for 50#, no problem.

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madsenshooter posted this 24 February 2010

Well, then, I'll make mine 25#, so all we'll need is someone to go the other 25#. See my edited post above Dollar Bill. Like I said there, I'd estimate 23BHN at the most, but Cu adds a toughness that goes beyond the BHN numbers if you ask me. I think it's something Richard Lee left out of his ideas on pressure vs velocity because he was working only with alloys of Sn/Sb/Pb.

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runfiverun posted this 25 February 2010

higher tin content helps copper remain soluble. i had to go to 10% tin to be able to mix in 3% copper at normal casting temps @750. i was just cutting in @ 1/4” pieces of lamp cord and stirring/fluxing it in. just some info.

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madsenshooter posted this 26 February 2010

I'll have to give that a try, my alloy already contains about 7% Sn.

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sabbatus posted this 28 February 2010

madsenshooter, ill go the other 25 lbs. the only snafu is it will be two weeks before i have the extra funds as money is always tight if february. if this is all right with you let me know

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CB posted this 01 March 2010

I would like to know how much of an increase in hardness is achieved with adding copper at 1/2%, 1%, 2% and 3%.

I can melt copper with no problem, I just want to know how much hardness I would gain and is it really work it.

Jerry

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madsenshooter posted this 04 March 2010

I don't know, but I'm beginning to think that the typo was more than just a typo. I'm thinking the missing 10% may have been tin. What I'm hearing from the metal people is that Cu doesn't like to alloy with Pb, just puddles up on top. Lets not be hasty and order something we can't use. Besides, I just had to buy a car part that put things on hold for me!

Hmm, found the book online at Google books, no mention of tin, there is a table however that shows what the alloy would be equal to mixed in various proportions with pure Pb.  For example, 1 part Sn to 10 parts Pb = 1 part Ideal No. 1 to 1 3/4 parts Pb.

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sart256 posted this 23 March 2010

Is this still available, I would be interested.

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galenaholic posted this 23 March 2010

Sounds to me like making a mountain out of a molehill. Unless that alloy would make bullets harder than 30 to 32 BHN, it seems to me to be like a waste.

I use an alloy consisting ot 10 pounds of wheel weights, one pound of linotype, a three foot piece of 95/5 percent lead free solder, (one type has silver in it and the other has copper BTW) I use the one with silver only because it was the one I happened to pick up at the hardware store. The final addition is a one-third cup of small magnum bird shot. I use 7 1/2 shot but number 8 would be better. The smaller the shot, them more arsenic is in the mix. Bullets air cool to 14 BHN but get a bit harder with age. However, heat treating them in an over for about an hour at a temperture just below the slump point for at least one hour, or longer if you refer and water dropping them will make them extremely hard. Usually the go to about 28 to 30 BHN upon quenching, but if the wheel weights have a fairly high antimony content, then they can age harden to anywhere from 31 to 33 BHN. I have thought about doubling the amount of shot to see if I can get them even harder, but they shoot so well now, I wonder why I might bother?

Anyway, that is what is working for me. A usual, YMMV.

Paul B.

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JetMech posted this 23 March 2010

galenaholic wrote: Unless that alloy would make bullets harder than 30 to 32 BHN, it seems to me to be like a waste.The initial post was about an old alloy that didn't survive the transition shooters made to jacketed bullets. My point is that if shooters want expansion and high velocity, they go to jacketed bullets. Casters have been at a disadvantage because to push bullets at jacketed velocities, we've had to go with the methods you mention, mainly heat-treating or shooting straight type metals, sacrificing the expansion obtained from softer alloys. The hope was that a high-copper alloy would be able to be shot at high velocity and still resist the tendency of harder bullets to shatter on impact. there's a reason it was Ideal's #1 alloy and I thought it worth exploring the potential of an alloy that hasn't been used in 100 years. 

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galenaholic posted this 23 March 2010

My apologies. I thought you were looking for a bullet that was harder than #2 or linotype. That's what I get for posting when it's well past my bedtime. :D

Paul B.

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madsenshooter posted this 22 April 2011

If you already have a bit of Cu in your melt, say from some babbitt, I've found a little MPP/OXY torch will melt copper.  For a second or two the molten copper sits on top, then bloop, disappears into the melt.

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