Windflags For Cast Bullet Shooting

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  • Last Post 05 August 2009
CB posted this 21 July 2009

Shooters I have written several windflag Posts on other Websites so here's one for you. First defining what a windflag might be. Knowing it or not our human senses act as a windflag even when we are not shooting. Wind coming from different angles and with different velocity and acceleration patterns affects bullet flight. If you could be the bullet you would be aware of the need to stabilize your flight to shear your way towards your target. For cast bullet shooting from 50 and 100yd I use 2 wind flags. I walk them out setting them where I feel the wind. Usually both inside the first half distance. A windflag next to the target serves no purpose as by that time the bullet has stabilized you can't bring it back therefore the conditions closest to the shooter matter the most. So a simple 2 flag set-up for cast bullet shooting is best, easy to compare 2 flags and make a judgement. One condition I avoid shooting in is 2 flags pointing in the same direction tails maxxed out and my mirage paper racing off the paper. This condition leads to no reading capability and if you persist in shooting you will add horizontal to your group for each shot. Bad Ju Ju. Shoot the flag condition that will repeat. You probably get the feeling I am talking from my BR experience, I am. But whether I shoot a BR gun or my factory stock Rem 722 in .222 when I shoot for targets I apply the same methods. I think if a guy made his own flags and used them while shooting he would see how his shots are grouping. Things like a let-up or increase in wind or a change in direction or all of the above would let you make decisions to hold off ot hold on. To me a day at the Range without flags is giving up to Mother Nature and a waste of a target. Easy to make a windflag. Now we have have coroplast which some get for free. A simple pattern, I like a small vane for cast bullet long and narrow. A piece of delrin or wood for the center post, cut a groove in the post and attach the vane. Surveyors ribbon any color not so long so that it drags the ground except at Ranges like Phoenix where flags seldom or never hang limp. On those type Ranges make them longer. I attach the flagging to the vane using a small/medium fishing swivel hooked to the vane then loop a piece of 6/10 lb test fishing line about a 1” loop. The line fed through the swivel then is double tied with the knot end always making contact with the swivel loop. Now you can tie your flagging to the loop end. I have used double and single flagging. The good part about this if your flagging gets ragged or if you want to change color of flagging cut it loose and you still have your loop for new. Shooters with same color tails may wish they had another color when most fly orange. What would work good is attach the vane in the back half using a piece of piano wire balancing the flag on the wire end with a small counter weight on the wire end. Use a 3/16” nail for the stand and drill a hole to match in the post. For a stand any tripod or stiff pole beat in the ground, 1/2” pole is good. A sectioned pole will give you some adjustment for flag height. What I have used and it works is a pair of surveyors lathe with ribbon attached driven into the ground. While setting the flags keep in mind of your neighbors by staying inside your shooting lane. Wind flags can be a nuisance to a guy shooting an AK or a pistol. Avoid getting your equipment shot up and trying to extract compensation for your short sighted placement of flags. What have you got to lose by trying a pair of wind flags except your pride. Mother Nature has no regard for bullet flight. But you can cut the odds by reading conditions with a simple application of Newton's principles. Mark my word you will notice the improvement on your targets using windflags and have fun learning how to shoot all over again. Stephen Perry Angeles BR:fire

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JetMech posted this 21 July 2009

Good article, Stephen. I had to look up what coroplast is. Benchrest central.com has an easy-to make flag. Question: What height do you set your flags at?

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CB posted this 21 July 2009

Bill

Flag height for cast bullet and factory guns I set them so both are level to your eyesight and parallel to your shooting bench. For my BR use I set 4 flags. I crouch down and level all 4 so they run parallel to my shooting bench. NBRSA has a flag setting rule but for practice range use  I set them high enough so I can look at them with no effort.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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CB posted this 21 July 2009

Guys

If interested you can see a sample of windflags at my San Gabriel BR School in 2006. That particular day I was working with Walt Berger of Berger Bullets in the bullet making instruction. All the bullet making gear is mine. I planned the school for 9 months. We will have BR 3 our 3rd BR School in 2010 at Angeles BR Range. Hope to shoot 100 & 200. You can access the BR School in 6mmBR.com, Article Archive, Benchrest School. I wrote most of the articles for the school too.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

 

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CB posted this 23 July 2009

Anybody Else

Are any other Cast shooters that have tried windflags. I suggest if you want to see how well your Cast shoot try the flags. Shooting for groups without flags is hadicapping your barrel. The barrel wants to win with each and every shot.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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CB posted this 23 July 2009

I think you're the first.

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CB posted this 24 July 2009

Pat

To myself I seem a humble person to others risky. Saying that I have 83 windflags of which they are 7 patterns. I would share with some in PM's my designs and ways to capitolize on their use. I am not Newton but his life runs in my veins.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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billwnr posted this 24 July 2009

Rick Graham windflags spoken here.

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CB posted this 24 July 2009

Bill

I have shot next to Rick at Visalia while he was developing and selling flags. Good flags but I don't watch propellor flags. Like I said in another Post I have 83 flags in 7 designs so new flags that come out are like mine except for the propellers. There is one style flag out there however that I would like to have and they are the Smiley Hensley flag without propellers.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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Joe_C posted this 01 August 2009

Stephen .

 I am looking into getting a few wind flags , and looking for suggestions.

 I am shooting a  BPCR rifle ,45-90 . most of my shooting/testing  is at 200 yards .

 I am still working up loads for the rifle , so i try to do most shooting when there is as little wind as possible .

A couple weeks ago , just to have something to watch , i started sticking   some  rods in the ground at  50, 100 , and 150 yds. with a piece of surveyors ribbon tied on them so that i at least had some indication of what was happening. I had about a 12” section of the top of the rod bent at 90 degrees , and the ribbon tied at the end , so that it could hang down freely .

 I am kind of"confused” as to what to look for in a flag . ???

Do i want single vane. double vane,  propeller , ball end.(why choose one over the other )  And how many should i actually set out?   I would think that i want at least 3, set  at the distances i now have them . 

 Since the range is close to my home , and i am currently doing load developement , i can kid of   “pass” on having to shoot in extreme wind conditions ,(for now) , so maybe that might have an impact on what type of flags to buy ????????

 

 Any and all   suggestions very welcome ...

This is one of those areas  where i don't know enough to even ask the right questions..............

thanks

Joe .

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CB posted this 01 August 2009

Joe

You did well Joe you asked just the right questions after you used some of your own time thinking of the possiblities of what you want for windflags. Let me say up front   outside of a BR shoot not may flags show up at the practice range. I shoot NBRSA centerfire where everyone has a set of flags. I do not shoot Cast BR so I do not know whether the Cast guys do at their shoots, if they don't use flags they should.

To be successfull in paper or silohuette shooting you need to be able decipher the conditions in front of you and around. This is why BR shooters use their flags and a black stripped mirage paper placed beside their target. Wind and Mirage are common terminology in the target shooting game. I also shoot wind and mirage when I practice. Lets get off the subect one second. All those Savage guys that claim 1 hole accuracy send them to my BR tange with plenty of money I have a box for the money when they can't perform as advertised.

Joe since you will be getting your first flag set go with the single vane no propellor. These flags are easy to read. Rick Grahm joined CBA recently his windflag making info is here on CBA. He makes nice flags and can help you allot to. Surveyor tape is fine. There are 2 types of tape. The first is the thin material the other is thicker tape that construction and surveyors use. I use the heavy tape but both work.

Joe what is important with flags is you shoot when you know you need to shoot not just shoot for no reason. Your group shooting ability will amaze when you add flags to your equipment. The majority of shooters outside BR neither know that wind and mirage affects their group shooting or don't care for such things. Distances of 100,200,300 are where wind and mirage reading pays big dividends.

Stephern Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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Joe_C posted this 02 August 2009

Stephen .

 Thanks for the reply .  

 I couldn't find any info on here about making flags (doesn't mean it is not here , just my lack of skill finding the info ) , but i did go to Ricks website. 

 Would you suggest getting the flags that he has displayed on his home page? 

 They are a plain flag , with a  ball  , and tail . 

  Also , how many would you suggest for  200 yd, shooting , and at what distances would you suggest placing them . ? 

 thanks again for the help .

 Joe.

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billwnr posted this 02 August 2009

I use Rick Graham windflags and they are very sensitive to wind conditions. Also he uses sailcloth for the tails. Sailcloth seems to give a better read of the wind than surveyors tape as surveyors tape “maxes” out in a light wind while sailcloth still has wind velocity reading ability remaining. Sailcloth is a heavier fabric.

I bought them after sitting next to him at a club swap meet. He had a demo flag sitting on his table and it moved to indicate very slight breezes.

My earlier ones had the pivot made from braizing rod and weren't as sensitive as the ends were rough. I ordered a set of his shortly after the swap meet.

 

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CB posted this 02 August 2009

Bill

Sail cloth for tails may seem like a better material for flagging but it's not. Sail cloth is slow to react to changes in wind which gives the perception of an easy to read flag and it's horizontal wind component is splinterered based on the curl in the tail.

If you shoot at Phoenix you will see more flagging than anything. I used to feel sorry for the guy at Phoenix with the 36" sail cloth tails. All I saw the cloth doing was spinning in circles or a switch and the sail cloth would curl over the top. Too slow how do you read that condition. At Phoenix the smart locals and smart visitors replace their shorter tails with a long single surveyor flagging sometimes a foot or so laying on the ground, use the construction grade for Phoenix. When the winds starts heavy as it most always does the length of ribbon pulls up in a long vector never reaching 90 deg from the pole.

I sold several hundred sail tails at San Gabriel for a Visalia buddy of mine. I bought one set black I still have that set new in a tube.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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billwnr posted this 02 August 2009

That's the problem I see with wiggly surveyors tape. It wiggles all over the place in a slight breeze and once the wind is at a certain level doesn't show any wind increase.

Sail cloth seems to work for the better shooters. Also the reason for keeping sail cloth in a tube is to give it the “u” shape. That way it raises and lowers in the wind and doesn't shimmy all over the place like the flimsy tape.

You don't still use surveyors tape, do you?

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CB posted this 02 August 2009

Bill

The better shooter uses what works. Most every Range I have shot BR at all around the Country shows more flagging than anything else. Phoenix is home Range to Ocock, Bruno, Berger, Frei all HOF shooters. You have good shooters in the NW I shoot with some of them too but no HOF shooters in Washington, Oregon, and California. Using flagging has been around since the first windflags showed up on a BR field, a long long time ago. I am not saying that flagging is the only way to go only the most popular way Do a little traveling come down to Visalia and watch the flags fly.

Why would I write this if I din't use flagging Bill. I have had 4 flags with surveyor ribbon set up in my backyard for 2 days. I do this when I have shoot coming up. Vislia has a 3 day shoot on Labor Day weekend I always go. I talked with Rick last weekend he wants to go to Visalia but he is sending his son back to College like I am and is watching expenses.

I started this Thread to get some interest in using winflags in Cast bullet shooting. A good wind flag reader will be able to create their own groups not just hold in the same spot each shot and have your target be a weather report of prevailing conditions.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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billwnr posted this 02 August 2009

Stephen, is there a reason you aren't offering “tips” on the 6mmBR.com and benchrest.com forums any more? It might be best if you'd get a few “creds” by shooting your 6x45 with cast bullets and posting your results before continuing more.

I too, like you, have shot next to good shooters.

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CB posted this 02 August 2009

Bill

We don't seem to chime in. Let somebody else have a turn at the windflag Thread. I appreciate your thoughts but not you snide.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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PETE posted this 02 August 2009

  Strange that more CBA shooters don't use windflags. They are almost standard equipment in Schuetzen shooting where we shoot to 200 yds.

  Here's a picture of both a single and double vane I have.

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CB posted this 02 August 2009

Pete

Seems we are a student of eachother in use of windflags. Only thing I could recommend Pete for windy days attach a long single piece of surveyors tape construction grade.The tape will less likely to blow straight out and give you something you can read. Is that a Smiley flag next to your Hood. I am a fan of the Smiley's.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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PETE posted this 02 August 2009

 Stephen,

  Regular construction tape might be worth a try if I can find some. Taping a bullet into the tail seems like it might be a good idea. The thing wrong with tape is when the wind gets up to 15 to 20 mph, which it does fairly regularly.

  Any kind of flag system you use is arbitrary anyway, and you have to do quite a bit of shooting on windy days to see how much windage you have to crank in for a given angle of tape elevation.

  Need to make one of those mirage boards you've talked about to. Our range faces North with a line of trees on the right so it takes till about noon before you can really see the mirage. I think a mirage board would be helpful.

  I think one thing a lot of guys forget is the amount of hold-off..... if that's what you do..... will be a different amount if you go in the opposite direction, both vertically or horizontally. I've found the following chart helpful in getting this right.

PETE

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