Windflags For Cast Bullet Shooting

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  • Last Post 05 August 2009
CB posted this 21 July 2009

Shooters I have written several windflag Posts on other Websites so here's one for you. First defining what a windflag might be. Knowing it or not our human senses act as a windflag even when we are not shooting. Wind coming from different angles and with different velocity and acceleration patterns affects bullet flight. If you could be the bullet you would be aware of the need to stabilize your flight to shear your way towards your target. For cast bullet shooting from 50 and 100yd I use 2 wind flags. I walk them out setting them where I feel the wind. Usually both inside the first half distance. A windflag next to the target serves no purpose as by that time the bullet has stabilized you can't bring it back therefore the conditions closest to the shooter matter the most. So a simple 2 flag set-up for cast bullet shooting is best, easy to compare 2 flags and make a judgement. One condition I avoid shooting in is 2 flags pointing in the same direction tails maxxed out and my mirage paper racing off the paper. This condition leads to no reading capability and if you persist in shooting you will add horizontal to your group for each shot. Bad Ju Ju. Shoot the flag condition that will repeat. You probably get the feeling I am talking from my BR experience, I am. But whether I shoot a BR gun or my factory stock Rem 722 in .222 when I shoot for targets I apply the same methods. I think if a guy made his own flags and used them while shooting he would see how his shots are grouping. Things like a let-up or increase in wind or a change in direction or all of the above would let you make decisions to hold off ot hold on. To me a day at the Range without flags is giving up to Mother Nature and a waste of a target. Easy to make a windflag. Now we have have coroplast which some get for free. A simple pattern, I like a small vane for cast bullet long and narrow. A piece of delrin or wood for the center post, cut a groove in the post and attach the vane. Surveyors ribbon any color not so long so that it drags the ground except at Ranges like Phoenix where flags seldom or never hang limp. On those type Ranges make them longer. I attach the flagging to the vane using a small/medium fishing swivel hooked to the vane then loop a piece of 6/10 lb test fishing line about a 1” loop. The line fed through the swivel then is double tied with the knot end always making contact with the swivel loop. Now you can tie your flagging to the loop end. I have used double and single flagging. The good part about this if your flagging gets ragged or if you want to change color of flagging cut it loose and you still have your loop for new. Shooters with same color tails may wish they had another color when most fly orange. What would work good is attach the vane in the back half using a piece of piano wire balancing the flag on the wire end with a small counter weight on the wire end. Use a 3/16” nail for the stand and drill a hole to match in the post. For a stand any tripod or stiff pole beat in the ground, 1/2” pole is good. A sectioned pole will give you some adjustment for flag height. What I have used and it works is a pair of surveyors lathe with ribbon attached driven into the ground. While setting the flags keep in mind of your neighbors by staying inside your shooting lane. Wind flags can be a nuisance to a guy shooting an AK or a pistol. Avoid getting your equipment shot up and trying to extract compensation for your short sighted placement of flags. What have you got to lose by trying a pair of wind flags except your pride. Mother Nature has no regard for bullet flight. But you can cut the odds by reading conditions with a simple application of Newton's principles. Mark my word you will notice the improvement on your targets using windflags and have fun learning how to shoot all over again. Stephen Perry Angeles BR:fire

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JetMech posted this 05 August 2009

Alot of great information, gentlemen. I think I'll try some basic flags, maybe have 2 side by side with different size split shot attached until I decide what will work best at the ranges I use. Then I'll see if I can determine flag angle to wind velocity. That should be fun. Thanks to all for their input.

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PETE posted this 04 August 2009

 Hunterspistol,

  You're welcome!

  I'm like you and spent al my life working in a large manufacturing plant. In fact the largest valve mfg. in the world as a nuclear welder. We did have a lot of brass so that's what I made my parts out of. I've got a small lathe so the rest was easy. Went to a local machine shop and they cut the Aluminum plate out for me.

  I agree it might be best to make up a set of flags first. From Wally's picture you can see he uses them to behind the probe. All the pictures I've see with the probe show the same. Along with mine there is one other “boughten” one that shows up occasionally.

  Actually tho the markings on the plate are large enuf that you can set it up anywhere on the range you want to. But like Wally I find it makes a good “Stop” sign. It seems to be more sensitive than flags, and doesn't seem to fool you like flags can.

  What you'll find out soon enuf is that you can be all lined up waiting for your condition, get it, and before you can look thru the scope to verify your crosshairs, and pull the trigger, the flags have changed. The cure for me has been to get the first flag off to the left of the line of sight a little where I can see it with my left eye, and the 2nd flag so I can see it in the scope. The third flag I don't put much wgt. on since on our range, as I've described, it will be out of the wind most of the time. Of course don't forget to watch the mirage. But there will be many times when your brain says shoot and before the message gets to your finger the flags will move on you. About all you can do then is cuss a blue streak, and forget about it. Never saw the shot yet than could be recalled!

  What I can't stress enuf to everyone is to use your flags and get to know them. That means in all kinds of weather. If you don't shoot in matches it's very easy to just pick the calmest days. Those are the days to work up loads, but once you have that done pick days that aren't really all that good for shooting. You'll learn a lot more!

  Stephen,

  You're welcome.

PETE

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CB posted this 04 August 2009

Thanks for the Postings Pete.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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hunterspistol posted this 04 August 2009

      Thank you, Pete.  I appreciate that, thinking delrin and nylon, I now have brass on the list.  Now I just need to pace and talk to the machinist. I work in an industrial plant but, most of what we build is on a large scale. I can see how that would work. Windflags most likely would come first though.  Still, that gives me ideas for pivots that I can get my hands on.  As far as corroplast goes, I've seen that come through the plant too.  If I'd had some idea what to do with it- too soon old, too late wise. 

     I've seen the effect of wind on groups, it shows up on some of my load tests. The difference get fairly dramatic. Now, I have some ideas to plan from, sure appreciate you guys.

    

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PETE posted this 04 August 2009

hunterspistol,

  Here's a picture of my wind probe. You'll notice that it's slightly different than the one you see in Wally's picture. I was going by memory that was about two yrs. old from the article in P.S. Works the same tho and cost a lot less than the $200(?) or so for a boughten one.

          

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PETE posted this 04 August 2009

 Wally,

  Your message is spot on as far as I'm concerned.

  You have to be aware of what ALL your flags are doing. But the “experts", whoever they are, say that the most important flag is the one closest to you. Their reasoning, which I'll buy, is that the bullet still hasn't fully stabilized. I've heard this takes anywhere from 25 to 50 yds. and more depending on how close to the twist rate being inadequate for the length of the bullet. As such it is more vulnerable to the wind. Also, the time of flight is longest from the first flag onward, so the wind will have the maximum effect. The further down range the less the wind can act on it. In short..... if your first two flags, lets say, are “flat” and the 3rd one is straight out there will be less effect on the bullets flight than if the first is “flat” and the other two are straight out, and also if all the flags are straight out.

  For me, at our range, the problem is finding a condition where the flags are reasonably the same from shot to shot. In SS shooting most breech seat so there is a period of time between the first and second shot, so there is usually a waiting period after you're ready to go again. No “machine gunning” them in when your condition holds for a minute or so like the BR guys can do on occassion. Three shots is about the max. I've ever gotten in the same condition so holding off is a common occurence for me.

  I've got a LOT to learn about wind and mirage. I don't know how many times I'll get the flags and mirage going at what I think is right, so past experience tells me I have to hold off “X” amount. So I do and guess where the bullet goes? :(

  Your idea of using the Probe as a stop sign is a good description, and can be used for any kind of “first” flag. No matter what kind of flags I'm using I put the most “weight” on it.

  To everybody,

  I suppose most of you reading this thread are gonna think it's impossible to master wind and mirage. In that they're probably right. Just keep in mind tho that the better you get at it the better your scores will be. Even a little better is better than no idea what's happening at all. That's a guarantee! If you've paid attention to Wally's scores in the Fouling Shot.... I do since I think he's one of the better shooter's..... you'll see what he's saying in his posts here are true. Basically to become good at it you have to do a lot of shooting. Take lots of notes, and if a shot doesn't go where you think it ought to have, try and figure out why not.

PETE

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Wally Enga posted this 03 August 2009

Pete, I like to think of the wind probe as providing one component of the info needed to determine a firing solution to place a shot in the X Ring / group. I would caution from experience that any one first using one of these to not fixate on it and start ignoring other wind flags and indications. It will indicate the cross wind component at its location and only at that point. Nor will it indicate a change bearing down on your line of fire.

It's a looong trip for a cast bullet to get all the way down to the 200 yard line --- takes about 0.4 seconds at 1700 fps and a lot of bad things can happen as it travels thru this constantly moving / swirling / changing air mass before it makes it to the target.

You must also be aware of what  the other flags are showing about a change in direction or velocity coming across the range.

I use the wind probe mostly as a stop sign. If I have been doing well shooting in a condition with say the cup at the Right 30 to 40 degree position and it drops towards the 90 degree position or backs off towards the vertical position  --- that means stop --- do not fire now.  But ignoring the other flags is a sure disaster for your groups / score.

 Wally

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hunterspistol posted this 03 August 2009

    I'd like to see a close-up of the wind-probe, interesting idea. Looks to be an “at a glance” apparatus.

     Mr. Perry, thanks for the information. That's Pat Iffland , if I'm not mistaken, shot the cover of this month's Fouling Shot Magazine, and one of the National BR photo albums on the main page. 

     As for whining about being told to shut up and go away, I just figure you owe those two men an apology and haven't learned how to do that. I think you might owe Pat one too. :shock:

     I think Wally Enga is the current champion here, these guys shot pictures of a match in coveralls and boots with an icepack across the ground, must've been all of twenty degrees that day. Seems to me, they really like to shoot.

     As Jimmy Ray from Alabama so aptly put it: “Never miss a chance to shut up".

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CB posted this 03 August 2009

OK. I go to work thinking we have a truce on this Windflag Thread. I come home and I'm still being dragged under the bus. The recommedations to leave or shutup are still in my informing Thread, bad Moderator. That's OK the info on building and using windflags is getting out that's what matters to me. Time for me to sit back and let things go. I have shared all I want I share. The guy from Texas that wanted info on building in-expensive windflags can go back to my orginal Thread and get ideas, also someothers have some good ideas also here. To me windlags are for cast target shooting with most rifles and can be used admirably by cast bullet shooters for practice or competition. Really will not do much for sighting with your deer rifle since a hunter in the field for small game or large game has no time for a windlag. Though I know some varmint hunters that will throw a flag or two out if shooting off a bench.

The Poster would keeps downsizing the value of flagging is ignorant of the BR world. Excuse me for referring to BR jacketed but as I said before the 4 HOF shooters living in the Western US use winflags with flagging no cups tied to the end or pennys, short tails for gentle condtion Ranges and tails twice as long for rally windy Ranges like Phoenix or Raton.

Ok guys quit the bickering and stay on subect I'm enjoying the windflag Thread.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

 

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PETE posted this 03 August 2009

 Pat,

  You're one of the moderators so I guess you'll do things your way. Peace!

  Wally,

  Dang I was gonna post a picture of your first flag. Got one somewhere. Been so long since I made mine but I think it's called a wind probe. Was to expensive for my tastes so made my own following the description in P.S.

  For those interested the “Wind Probe(?)"  Is pretty ingenious. It looks like it would only indicate what was happening with the wind from two directions. But this isn't the case.  If you'll look at the wind chart I posted you see you have to hold off different amounts for different o'clock positions. The part affected by the wind is actually a red Dixie Cup. No matter which direction the wind comes from it is going to it will affect the position of the cup over a a portion of the arc. By waiting for the probe to settle on a given mark you can be sure that the force of the wind is the same and in the same direction.

  In my opinion Wally has his set up where it should be. As the first indicator, which is considered to have the most effect on the bullets flight at it's most unstable point.

  When using flags I set up three and put the most “wgt.” on the first one and a lesser amount on the others as they go get farther away.

  Forget now who it was but someone was asking for places to get flags or supplies. Do a Google for “shooting wind flags” and from the looks you ought to get enuf to satisfy you. Here's the guy's web site a friend and I got ours from.

              http://www.geocities.com/freighterman.geo/flags/index.html

  Looking the site over a little again I think most of your questions will be answered. Plus the cost which might make you want to makeyour own. :) Since a friend and I only live 50 miles away we went down and looked his shop over, and then went and picked them up.

  One thing I don't recall anyone mentioning is the vanes are made out of the same plastic sheeting the Real Estate people use for their “For Sale” signs. I'd look for some of that and paint to suit if you want to build some. A sheet of it costs virtually an arm and a leg.

 TTurner,

  Thanks for the compliments. I don't really like to toot my own horn since what you saw, plus a whole host of others, I've forgotten, were won over 60 years of shooting and are old news. Kind of like someone asking “What have you done for me lately!” :)

PETE

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tturner53 posted this 03 August 2009

Hi Guys!! Good to hear from ya. Yes, I have been called a smart @#$ a time or two, cost me some teeth and ribs too! Some people just have no sense of humor. I tried to picture my wife out there in panty hose in the wind, I stopped right away. 

PETE; damn that's a hell of a resume. Nice shooting.

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CB posted this 03 August 2009

Wally Enga wrote: tturner53 wrote: helllo? Walmart bags?! You guys gonna let my 'windbag' joke just go? Tough room. I've even seen flags a guy made by cutting the legs out of his wifes pantyhose.

Bet there's even a few guys that put their wife's panty hose out there with her still in them. Get a visual and audible flag that way and you don't have to go collect them when you're done shooting.

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JetMech posted this 03 August 2009

pat i. wrote: tturner53 wrote: helllo? Walmart bags?! You guys gonna let my 'windbag' joke just go? Tough room. You just live to throw little things like that out there don't you?? :)

Hey, some of us just aren't that sophisticated. Walmart bags? i thought it was a great idea.

Honestly, though, those of us who have not used flags before would probably be best served starting out simple.

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Wally Enga posted this 03 August 2009

tturner53 wrote: helllo? Walmart bags?! You guys gonna let my 'windbag' joke just go? Tough room. Hey, nothing wrong with using Walmart bags. :P

I've even seen flags a guy made by cutting the legs out of his wifes pantyhose.

Made pretty good windsocks.

Wally

 

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CB posted this 03 August 2009

tturner53 wrote: helllo? Walmart bags?! You guys gonna let my 'windbag' joke just go? Tough room. You just live to throw little things like that out there don't you?? :)

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billwnr posted this 03 August 2009

hunterspistol wrote: :coffee   Here's my questions, where does a guy find Windflag supplies for cheap?  The wind hits 50 mph in Texas and I can't afford to destroy too many sets.  How about a few links to this stuff.  I saw the custom made ones, nice.  I live close to the range, take care of it but, I'm still mostly a hobbyist.

      And mirage paper, how does that work?  I've seen a video of how mirage will lift an image about a foot above it's real location but, how do you read mirage or mirage paper and apply that?

     Have one project rifle going, considering more.

There's all sorts of sophistication in windflags and they generally go up in dollars.

you can make the “flags” from surveyors tape to a rod, cardboard or coroplast. Coroplast is basically plastic cardboard.

You can make the tails from string, surveyors tape, some sort of tailing material that Sinclairs sells or sailcloth.  

I listed the flags and tails in order of very wind sensitive to lesser wind sensitive.  There's an upside and downside with very or lesser sensitivity.  The very sensitive will pick up a very slight, almost not there breeze but will max out in a light breeze.  The sailcloth will continue to indicate wind strength long past surveyors tape that at that point will be madly flapping in the breeze. 

If they are “madly flapping” they only indicate direction at that point and no further increases in wind intensity.  Conventional Wisdom (to bring up an old phrase) would say not to shoot in those conditions, but if those conditions are the only ones available in the 10 minute time allowed, then one needs to know when the “flat spots” are and when the winds are increasing/decreasing.

Posts to support the flags can be as simple as a piece of surveyors tape taped to a discarded arrow shaft, to a piece of braizing rod, up to a machined post rotating in a cup of smooth delrin.

If one uses the surveyors tape it might be a good thing to put a styrofoam coffee cup on the end or some other sort of weight to make the tape usable in light to moderate winds.  Or to use dual tailing with one with a weight and one without.

Personally I use Rick Graham's windflags as I believe “you get what you pay for” and his are very sensitive in the wind.   

I will add my windflags are better at reading the wind than I am.

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tturner53 posted this 03 August 2009

helllo? Walmart bags?! You guys gonna let my 'windbag' joke just go? Tough room.

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CB posted this 03 August 2009

roadie wrote: In my eyes, people like that have to back up their claims and Mr. Perry will or he will not And in the mean time people that have or have not backed up their claims should consider walking a little softer around other people who might have backed up theirs. What might be construed as bickering to you in some of these threads is in actuality me getting complaints about someone's behaviour and replying to it no matter who it is. I appreciate your opinion about taking things to PMs in cases like this but I don't agree with it. I've seen it happen on other forums and the next thing you know the guy who brought the problem on himself is on every other forum he could find complaining about how his civil rights were violated and the place is run by a bunch of Nazis.  Keep things in the open and you won't end up with nonsense like that.  

 

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hunterspistol posted this 03 August 2009

:coffee   Here's my questions, where does a guy find Windflag supplies for cheap?  The wind hits 50 mph in Texas and I can't afford to destroy too many sets.  How about a few links to this stuff.  I saw the custom made ones, nice.  I live close to the range, take care of it but, I'm still mostly a hobbyist.

      And mirage paper, how does that work?  I've seen a video of how mirage will lift an image about a foot above it's real location but, how do you read mirage or mirage paper and apply that?

     Have one project rifle going, considering more.

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Wally Enga posted this 03 August 2009

roadie wrote: Wally, Your flags look like they are calibrated, how is that done?

roadie

Well not really --- that would not be allowed.  From what I understand these wind probes are approved as long as they have only dot and line markings or colored areas but can not be defined with numbers. When you got to a Cast Bullet Nationals like the one in Raton, NM this Sept you will see quite a few in use.

Wally

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