New Light Production Class Proposed.

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CB posted this 04 June 2009

June 1, 2009

A new light production class for CBA registered competition has been proposed.

CBA President John Alexander has proposed a new light production class for CBA competiton with the following rules: Max weight of 9.5 lbs. Max scope power of 9X Bedding is allowed Trigger adjustments are allowed No throating or changing the throat or other modifications.

The main difference with this new proposed class is that if a modification is not specifically allowed, then it is prohibited.

This new class would allow many more people to have the ability to compete with others without spending a lot of money on equipment. You would be able to take your hunting rifle and shoot in a cast bullet match.

In the email John sent me asking me to post this on the website he did mention that this new class would be probationary, which means it would have a couple of years to see if it would draw enough interest.

Since there are no records established for this class, there is the opportunity for someone to set new records once the class has passed the probationary period.

This class will need the approval of the CBA BOD at the yearly national meeting at which time I would expect that the rest of the definitions of the class including which targets the class would be fired on will be established.

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runnin lead posted this 04 June 2009

June 1st entry was extended till June 31st , shot test loads yesterday ,waiting for targets to arive, received new .308 T/C Icon Friday, this is going to be a fun match

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tturner53 posted this 04 June 2009

It will be fun.

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runnin lead posted this 04 June 2009

Target were at the post office, Back to the reloading bench . Hey I'm suposed to be on vacation & I haven't been up to the Flat Tops to go fishing yet. Can't wait to shoot those targets then I might find time to go fishing then maybe I might find time to mow the lawn for the first time this year . Lilacs just starting to bloom , crabapple tree just bloomed , service berries & chokecherries blooming like crazy. How many times have you mowed your lawn? ya just got to get your priorities straight! dandy lions , those are my wild flowers!   Ahhhhh SPRINGTIME In the ROCKIES:cool: note  the shooting glasses

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CB posted this 08 December 2009

Here are the rules for the new probationary class which will be called Hunting Rifle Class.

Official Hunting Rifle Class Rules/ Adopted as probationary 9-11-09

A factory produced rifle manufactured in a quantity of at least 1,000 units over any 12 month period. Rifles produced by a manufacturer's custom shop are prohibited. Rifles using an original issue military action and barrel and meeting the Hunting Rifle Class weight limit are allowed.

Factory sights may be removed, but all other parts, including detachable magazines, must be present and functional when the rifle is weighed or fired. Maximum weight is 9.5 lbs. (4.3 Kg.). Modifications judged to have been made specifically to allow the rifle to meet the weight limit are prohibited. The barrel may be shortened only from the muzzle to facilitate re-crowning, but the barrel's exterior contour may not be altered. The barrel must be chambered for its original cartridge, and the chamber, including the neck, must conform to SAAMI specifications. Factory action, barrel, stock, and trigger appropriate to the model, must be used. The trigger may be adjusted and the barreled action rebedded. Buttstocks may be shortened up to one inch to fit shooter but the factory stock contour may not be altered. Factory parts may be exchanged, however, a reconfigured rifle must duplicate a factory produced model. There is no limit on scope power. Alterations not specifically allowed above are prohibited.

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CB posted this 08 December 2009

It didn't say anything about the throat in the rules but I hope rethroating isn't allowed and if it is it shouldn't be. I'm also a little concerned about the military portion of the rule the way it's written. Does that mean as long as it's an as issued barrel and action you an use any trigger, stock, or other modifications you want? Finally I'm not too happy about the no scope limit thing. When I brought this idea up years ago I was thinking about a rifle that someone could shoot in a match and take deer hunting the next day. What the no scope limit means is that 36x scopes wil be showing up on rifles and people will be complaining about the real or imagined difference they make.

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CB posted this 08 December 2009

Heh the price we pay for not being able to attend the national meeting.

I didnt write the rule, just posted it. John sent it to me and asked that I post it.

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CB posted this 08 December 2009

Which is why a better system should be found. I pushed for this thing for a long time and had absolutely no input on the way the rules were written.

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tturner53 posted this 08 December 2009

The original post from way back says no throating or changes to throat. Maybe that still goes.

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KenK posted this 08 December 2009

pat i. wrote: It didn't say anything about the throat in the rules I'm not sure if I've read the final version of the rule but the one I did read; said anything not specifically allowed, is NOT allowed.

I would also consider a “military barreled action” to include the original trigger.  I imagined this exception was to allow the zillions of 03s like mine.  All the metal is exactly military issue.  It was just dropped in a Fajen stock sometime in the 60s.

I am a little disapointed in the unlimited scope rule.

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CB posted this 09 December 2009

But from past experience I've seen that if you don't put everything in writing there'll be problems. Especially when you specifically mention the chamber and chamber neck but don't mention the throat. And while you might consider a military barreled action to include the trigger the next guy might not and since the action and trigger are two different things he'd be right.

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CB posted this 09 December 2009

Perhaps a email to John asking for clarification on the issues is called for??..

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Fred Sinclair posted this 09 December 2009

I must be missing something?

If you re-throat to use your favorite “go to” bullet, wouldn't that be about the same as having a custom bullet made to fit your existing throat?

How can could one tell if a throat was altered? A talented gunsmith could easily alter a throat and even set a barrel back, a thread, and you would never know it.

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Wally Enga posted this 09 December 2009

pat i. wrote: Which is why a better system should be found. I pushed for this thing for a long time and had absolutely no input on the way the rules were written.

Well not entirely correct --- the CBA Rules state that any CBA member who has competed in a Match can propose a rule change.

*****************

Section 15 REVISIONS TO RULES FOR COMPETITION

 15.1         Proposed Changes - Proposed changes to the rules must be received by the Secretary in writing by June 1 of each year. The Secretary will cause a summary of the proposed changes to be published in the July-August issue of the official journal. The Board of Directors will vote on the proposed changes at that year's annual meeting. The Board of Directors may make minor amendments during the Annual Meeting to proposed rule changes to avoid the necessity of having to make minor changes and present them the following year. The Secretary will then cause changes passed to be published in the official journal. Any change passed by a Director vote of less than 1-1/2 to 1 may be overturned by a majority vote of eligible members.  

15.2         Eligibility To Propose And Vote On Changes - CBA regular members who have competed in at least one CBA registered shoulder-to-shoulder match are eligible to:

                    (a) Initiate a proposal for a change in the Rules or call for a member vote as provided in 15.1

                               (b) Vote on changes passed by a vote of less than 1-1/2 to I as provided in 15.1.

 ************************

At the last annual meeting it was approved to have the Military Rifle Rules stated in a separate stand alone document effective on Jan 01, 2010. This thread reminded me that I had not sent that on to Jeff for posting on the CBA Web site so it will be there shortly.  Hopefully having the Military Rules in their own seperate document will avoid some of the confusion.

 As to some of the equipment questions noted here --- remember that we have 4 different Classes in Military Rifle.

Issue and Big Bore and also the 2 Modified Classes --- Mod Iron and Mod Scope.

In the Issue and Big Bore Classes the ONLY changes you can make to the issued rifle is raise or lower the front sight height and remove the sling & swivel to prevent tearing up your rear bag. You must use the issued trigger in these Classes.

In the Modified Classes you may use an after maket trigger like the Huber.

You can not re-thoat the chamber in any of the Military classes.

For the Light Production Class questions, --- John A would be the guy to get that info from.

Hope this helps.

Wally Enga

 

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CB posted this 09 December 2009

I realize shooters can propose rule changes but it's a lot easier to hash these things out and try to get them right before starting it than after they get going and people have guns they're shooting. Since rule change proposals wouldn't even be discussed let alone implemented until Sept of next year a lot can happen equipment wise in the mean time.

The way I'm reading the rule as it stands now pertaining to allowing military guns to shoot in the new hunter class I could take a K31, shorten the barrel to 21 inches, bed it in a BR stock with a 3” forend, put a 2 lb. Huber trigger in it, mount a 45x Leupold on top, and the thing would be a hunting rifle as long as it made weight which it probably would. Am I missing something? I also think if you start talking about chambers and necks it only stands to reason that you specifically make mention that rethroating isn't allowed.

The scope question is a matter of opinion and mine is that there should have been a limit to keep it more in the spirit of the intention of the class.

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tturner53 posted this 09 December 2009

Fred, the postals rely completely on the honor system and I believe that most really do honor the rules and play by the rules. There will be cheaters no doubt, but what can you do? It amazes me when I tell someone about a postal match, the first thing most think of is the potential for cheating and suggesting it's silly to compete since no doubt someone will cheat. I don't think that's all that common, but it doesn't worry me, I shoot in competition to compete against myself.

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Wally Enga posted this 09 December 2009

Pat

The Hunter Class (Light Production) is a CBA class so John A would be the one check with but I don't think the rifle in your example would be legal in the Hunter class because that 3 inch width modified class stock would not be legal in any of the Military Classes.

The Production Class and I assume the new Hunter Class allow any legal Military Rifle that meets the weight limits but still it would have to be within the Mod stock limits.

Wally

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Fred Sinclair posted this 09 December 2009

tturner53 wrote: Fred, the postals rely completely on the honor system and I believe that most really do honor the rules and play by the rules. There will be cheaters no doubt, but what can you do? It amazes me when I tell someone about a postal match, the first thing most think of is the potential for cheating and suggesting it's silly to compete since no doubt someone will cheat. I don't think that's all that common, but it doesn't worry me, I shoot in competition to compete against myself.

I agree with what you say completly!

My question is. If matching the throat to the bullet is cheating would not matching the bullet to the throat be considered cheating?

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CB posted this 09 December 2009

Fred the way I look at it is the intention of the class is to both introduce new shooters to the competitive side of the CBA and to let them do it without it becoming an equipment race. I think, actually I'm pretty sure, that the majority of people would never consider running a throating reamer into their deer rifle barrel. If they could get a bullet set up where it fit the existing factory set up by design and not luck I'd consider them one of the better cast bullet experimenters and hopefully they'd pass the knowledge on.

I agree that there's really no way to tell if a guy's done anything to the throat of his rifle but from what I've seen if you start allowing the little things eventually you end up with something completely different from the original intent. There was an incident a few years back where a guy twisted a rule a little bit and did just what you said about setting a barrel back and rechambering with a tight neck in PRO class but eventually he was found out. He didn't actually break the rule because of the way it was written but no one will ever convince me that he didn't bend the heck out of it and knew it when he was doing it.

Hopefully that won't happen again and the class will draw out some people out that don't feel comfortable shooting a box stock Rem 700 or Win Model 70 against a throated 12 lb. Savage BVSS using a bumped and tapered bullet.

I don't know if any of this makes sense but it's the best I can do.

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CB posted this 09 December 2009

Wally this is all it says about military rifles being shot in the production class under the current production class rules so I think my example would be legal in both the PRO and the new Hunting Rifle class as the rules stand now. Granted the military rules are a lot more restrictive but this is what's written up above them and there's no place saying to refer to the military rules for equipment requirements. Now i'll agree the chances of anyone building a rifle like the one I described are right between slim and none after going through the hassle caused by including the word “Body” and excluding the word “Neck” in the old PRO class rules i think you have to be pretty specific in how you write a rule.

Rifles using an original issue military action and barrel and meeting the Production Class weight limit may be fired in Production Class with no other restrictions.

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CB posted this 09 December 2009

I am glad to see the new Hunting Rifle Class being discussed and some good points have been made. Like all new rules, this one will probably have to be tweaked to get the bugs out but I believe since most members already have an appropriate rifle it will encourage more shooters to try competition .

My general comment on the complaints about the rules:

IT'S FINE TIME TO TELL ME LUCILLE!

With the single exception of the change in scope power, we have been using this set of rules for four years for the Light Production postal matches without receiving even one of the suggestions above for rule changes. Where were your comments when it would have been easy to improve the rules?

Contrary to Pat's contention that he had no input on the rules. Just the opposite is true. Pat, more than anyone, is responsible for the new class. He has pushed it for years and he and I have discussed it repeatedly. We should name it the Pat Iffland Class or at least give him an achievement award for persistence.

My comments on aspects of the specific rules mentioned in this thread:

  1. We probably should have a width restriction for stocks on military barreled actions as well as specifying original military triggers.

  2. Throating -- I think it is clear enough that only specified modifications are allowed and throating isn't specified. Fred's comment is interesting . You are right Fred. The real difference between a $50 throating job and a $150 dollar custom mold to fit the factory throat isn't obvious? I hadn't thought of it that way.

  3. Scope power -- Before proposing the class I polled shooters who had been participating in the Light Production postal matches (limited to 9X ) and they voted to increase the limit to 24 X ( Pat had originally suggested 24X) on the basis that it eliminates the need for a spotting scope and there are a lot of “good enough” 24X scope available for under $100. Unfortunately, a board member made a motion to eliminate the power restriction in the Annual meeting and my arguments to the contrary didn't convince a majority.

I hope that people with suggestions for improving these rules will take the time to propose changes as allowed by the Section 15 of the Rules of Competition and posted above by Wally.

John

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