Chamber neck and case necks got filthy - Ruger #1, 30-06

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max503 posted this 5 weeks ago

I picked up a Ruger #1, 30-06 not long ago.  I loaded some rounds with Lyman 311284 gas checked bullets, cast from lino, lubed with LLA and sized to .309 (because that's the only Lee push die I have in 30 caliber).  They were charged with 22.2 grains of 4759.  That diameter bullet worked well in my TC 30-30 carbine barrel.  

After about 10 shots it took some effort to chamber a round, and the necks of the cases coming out of the gun were filthy.  I thought it was only carbon.  But upon closer inspection I noticed leading on the outside of the cases.  

I take it that means the bullets were getting gas-cut before they could get into the rifling and I need to get a larger sizing die.  

I have never seen anything like this before.  The groups were not good.

Guess I'll be needing a bigger sizing die. 

Here's what they looked like:

I also tried some of the same bullets powder coated and gas checked.  They didn't shoot any better.  And I don't see how you can seat the bullets into the rifling of the Ruger #1.  I probably need to buy a plain base mold and powder coat bullets for this gun.  

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Aaron posted this 5 weeks ago

That's a new one to me.

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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max503 posted this 5 weeks ago

I've never seen anything like this either.  I made some rounds out of stuff I had lying around and this is what happened.  

I'm thinking I'll give everything a scrubbing with copper Chore Boy and do a chamber casting and go from there.  

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Premod70 posted this 5 weeks ago

First thing I would do is anneal the necks followed by measuring the neck inside diameter after firing and size the bullet to that dimension.

Dale Flinchum

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Urny posted this 5 weeks ago

Do you have a softer alloy to try?

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Aaron posted this 5 weeks ago

First thing I would do is anneal the necks

Great idea! Let the necks obturate fully. This lead, down the neck, just doesn't make much sense. Flame cutting in a backward direction. I'm sure there is a reason and I would really like to hear it.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Aaron posted this 5 weeks ago

If I was a betting man I would say you are not working up enough boiler pressure and the necks are not obturating - at all. If you are looking for 1600fps (my guess) then lino is the wrong alloy for 20K chamber pressure. I am making a lot of assumptions about your load.

With Lino, you should be seeking about 2000 fps or more. That of course will generate a larger chamber pressure and get those necks expanded into the chamber.

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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max503 posted this 5 weeks ago

Yes.  I have all all kinds of alloys.  Even pure lead.  

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Wilderness posted this 5 weeks ago

Interesting one, but perhaps not so unusual, at least in its elements. I have seen a bit of lead shine in case neck fouling.

There may always be just a little vaporised lead in powder gas from the reforming etc of the bullet at firing. What goes up the barrel has the passage of the next gas check to scrape it out if it's not too bad. You may see this discoloration on the gas checks of recovered bullets. Did you experience leading in the throat also? Whether it appears on the outside of the case neck may depend on clearance between neck and chamber. The lead goes with the gas flow back along the neck.

As already suggested, annealing, softer alloy, and more pressure may lessen the problem, but the real fix may be to plug the neck with a bigger bullet. That's before we get into the load.

To measure clearance I would start with a case fired in your rifle, preferably one fired with a heavier load. Measure case neck before sizing. Then size and load with bullet of known diameter and measure again. The difference is how much extra bullet diameter you need to take up the space. Fired case will be a bit smaller than chamber neck on account of springback, so this springback can be the clearance you have when you follow the method.

And you could try a full blown lube job instead of LLA.

You are only as good as your library.

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max503 posted this 5 weeks ago

I will give your method of determining bullet diameter a try. It makes sense.  This means I might need a new die for my lubrisizer, or I could polish out the one I've got.  I think it's .310".

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Shopdog posted this 4 weeks ago

Check chamber neck I.D. with a half ball small hole gage. I've found on high intensity bottle neck rounds that when the total neck to chamber clearance gets to .001",this can show up.

You can turn the necks to get more clearance. Annealing also helps. Good luck with your project.

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delmarskid posted this 4 weeks ago

I had a Rossi single shot in 7.62x39 do that. I figured out that the ball seat at the chamber mouth had no angle. It shaved lead on firing and gas blew it back down the case neck. I don’t think Ruger would do that to you though.

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beemer posted this 4 weeks ago

Sharp edge shaving the bullet was my first thought. Saw a auto pistol that had a sharp edge where throat started. He didn't shoot lead but it shaved copper pieces off the bullet till it would cause a jam.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 4 weeks ago

What SOME folks have done is to leave a slight 'bell' on the end of the brass - to help seal blow by.  This was for LIGHT loads, it works.

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max503 posted this 4 weeks ago

What SOME folks have done is to leave a slight 'bell' on the end of the brass - to help seal blow by.  This was for LIGHT loads, it works.

I have done that in the past with other guns.  Maybe it's time to try it here.  

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Rich/WIS posted this 4 weeks ago

The 311284 when seated in 30/06 leaves a lot of the bullet below the case neck and subject to damage from the powder gasses before it gets into the case neck. Any alloy vaporized on ignition has to go somewhere and if the case neck does not expand fast enough to seal the chamber is getting deposited on the outside of the neck.  I've shot a good number of 311284 in my 06 at +/- 1600 fps but the alloy was a lot softer than linotype in cases that were annealed and have not seen this happen. don't know how much of this applies but posted it FWIW.

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MP1886 posted this 4 weeks ago

The 311284 when seated in 30/06 leaves a lot of the bullet below the case neck and subject to damage from the powder gasses before it gets into the case neck. Any alloy vaporized on ignition has to go somewhere and if the case neck does not expand fast enough to seal the chamber is getting deposited on the outside of the neck.  I've shot a good number of 311284 in my 06 at +/- 1600 fps but the alloy was a lot softer than linotype in cases that were annealed and have not seen this happen. don't know how much of this applies but posted it FWIW.

 

I don't know what 30-06's you own, but I've had  4 1904 Springfields, and M1 Garand, and new commercial CZ 550 in 30-06 and my Lyman 311284 doesn't seat the bullet base below the case neck. This also hold true for a SAKO 30-06 I had. 

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max503 posted this 4 weeks ago

The 311284 when seated in 30/06 leaves a lot of the bullet below the case neck and subject to damage from the powder gasses before it gets into the case neck. Any alloy vaporized on ignition has to go somewhere and if the case neck does not expand fast enough to seal the chamber is getting deposited on the outside of the neck.  I've shot a good number of 311284 in my 06 at +/- 1600 fps but the alloy was a lot softer than linotype in cases that were annealed and have not seen this happen. don't know how much of this applies but posted it FWIW.

 

I don't know what 30-06's you own, but I've had  4 1904 Springfields, and M1 Garand, and new commercial CZ 550 in 30-06 and my Lyman 311284 doesn't seat the bullet base below the case neck. This also hold true for a SAKO 30-06 I had.

 

My gun is a Ruger #1 which is a falling block.  You cannot jam the bullet forward, so yes, the base is exposed to hot gases.  I hadn't thought of that.  And, lino has a relatively low melting point, doesn't it?  That would make the problem worse.  

With my load the bullet was seated all the way to the front groove.  

Maybe I should try one of the shorter Lee designs.  

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MP1886 posted this 4 weeks ago

The 311284 when seated in 30/06 leaves a lot of the bullet below the case neck and subject to damage from the powder gasses before it gets into the case neck. Any alloy vaporized on ignition has to go somewhere and if the case neck does not expand fast enough to seal the chamber is getting deposited on the outside of the neck.  I've shot a good number of 311284 in my 06 at +/- 1600 fps but the alloy was a lot softer than linotype in cases that were annealed and have not seen this happen. don't know how much of this applies but posted it FWIW.

 

I don't know what 30-06's you own, but I've had  4 1904 Springfields, and M1 Garand, and new commercial CZ 550 in 30-06 and my Lyman 311284 doesn't seat the bullet base below the case neck. This also hold true for a SAKO 30-06 I had.

 

My gun is a Ruger #1 which is a falling block.  You cannot jam the bullet forward, so yes, the base is exposed to hot gases.  I hadn't thought of that.  And, lino has a relatively low melting point, doesn't it?  That would make the problem worse.  

With my load the bullet was seated all the way to the front groove.  

Maybe I should try one of the shorter Lee designs.  

 

Yup that Ruger must be a lot different. Glad I don't own one. 

Lino leaves a lot of antimony wash in the bore.  It also will shoot out your throat when using very high velocity loads.  Only took a few shootings of Lino and I learned not to use it except for blending alloys. 

 

 

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Rich/WIS posted this 4 weeks ago

My rifle is a Ruger also, To clarify my old A3 Sprigfield was more forgiving and I could load longer.  A  well worn 96 Krag I had was also fine due to its long neck, but my Ruger #3 needs deeper seating.  The nose portion of the bullet is fine but sized .310 the first driving band limits seating depth.  My mold was the NOE clone and cast of lino or something close the bore riding section was .300 to .301 so a tight fit in a new barrel.

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MP1886 posted this 4 weeks ago

Well SAAMI changed dimensions on some cartridge, which I don't know all of them, but they did shorten the throat on new 7x57 Mausers. Who knows they may have changed the 30-06 as apparently Ruger has a different chamber. 

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