Best Bullet mould for 223 rem 1:12 twist Rem VVSF

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  • Last Post 04 August 2009
aap2 posted this 24 April 2009

I just bought a Rem VSSF 223 heavy barrel is 1:12 and want to work up cast bullet target loads for it.  I was wondering what would be a good choice for a 22 cal mould?  My casting experience has been mostly handguns and obsolete black powder rifles such as 577-450, so that 22 bullet looks awfully small to me, but I like a challenge.  Is the Lyman #225646 55gr “super silhoutte” bullet any better than the @225438 44gr or the 225415 55gr?  I could also but RCBS, Saeco or a custom mould if it's worth it. Thanks.

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RicinYakima posted this 24 April 2009

aap2,

Well, I can't help you a lot, but you are on a long slipper slope. I started playing with 218 Bee's 10 years ago, and still don't have a great bullet for it. My advise is: forget anything softer than lino or HT'd alloys, cull the bullets well, and throw back anything that looks maybe bad, and keep trying.

Good Luck, Ric

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aap2 posted this 24 April 2009

Thanks for the advice, I have a casting furnace, Star sizer etc, just no experience with 223.

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tturner53 posted this 25 April 2009

aap2 I've been messing around with the 225438. It  can't be too bad, as mine is an Ideal mold, before Lyman bought them out. It's been changed, I believe, but is still the same basic bullet. I've shot them in a Hornet or two as cast, LLA tumble lube style with no GC. Accuracy has been useable, but no target grade. I size them in a Lee sizer with GC and have had some success in a Weatherby Vanguard .223, I believe with the same twist as your Remington. That Weatherby (Howa) will really shoot with the right loads, unfortunately the best group so far has been with Hornady factory ammo, about .75". It gives me hope I'll find a winner with a cast bullet. I also agree the bullet needs to be hard. I'd like to come up with a good 150 yd. squirrel load. If you can find one the old 225450 is a fun bullet to mess with. It's a very pointed spire point and has a higher BC and looks cool in a loaded round. I'm planning to shoot the Hornet load in the unofficial Critter Target match, .Once I get repeatable accuracy I'm going to go for speed. Have you heard of the “Bator” bullet? I'm trying to find out about that one, might be real good in the 22s.

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Mike H posted this 25 April 2009

I have not a lot of experience with .22 calibre moulds, however I am doing a bit at present with a 55 grain RCBS. Shooting a Sako L461, with a heavy target barrel, 24", in .223. Not real sure of the alloy, but about wheel weights, with a touch of tin, quenched from mould,Sized .225 in a Lee sizer. Using Lee liquid alox lube.

To me, it appears to be a good bullet. I have shot to 200 yards, with 13 grains of ADI 2205, which I believe is H4 227. Have used other powders, AS-30n, which is our fastest shotgun powder, and ADI 2206, which would be similar to 3031.

Last week, I tried the same bullet in a Ruger bolt action, with a 1-8 twist, only shooting at marks on the 200 yard buttstop.Did not look so good, Probably the twist may be too fast for my loads, I will try at 100 yards on paper and see what happpens.

Takes some time to get the mould casting, using a Lee 10lb pot.

I reckon the .22`s are worth perservering with.

Mike.

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PETE posted this 25 April 2009

 I just started last year shooting a Savage bolt gun in .223 with a 1/9 twist rate. The two bullets I've been using are the LBT 225 85 SP and the NEI 224 72.

  All bullets were cast of 50/50 Lino/WW and sized .225. Powders I've tried out so far are IMR 4227, Varget, and SR4759. MV's I've been trying out have run from 1400 fps to a tad over 2000 fps.

  Best load so far has been with the NEI bullet and 11.2 grs. of SR4759 for a MV of 1898.2 fps, has averaged 5 shot groups of 1 1/8” at 100 yds. Some bragging groups..... not consistent....... have been with the LBT bullet and 4227 (5/8” & 3/4").

  Around 1800 to 1900 fps MV seems to be the range where the best accuracy is acheived with all loads and bullets in my gun.

  Also been playing with an AR (1-9” twist) but don't have anything definitive to report yet.

PETE

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KenK posted this 25 April 2009

I have the NEI # 3, which is similar to the # 6 that Pete mentioned, only shorter.  Mine was cut without the gas check shank and is the most accurate bullet I've found so far in my 1-14 twist barrel.  It might work better in your slower twist...

Pete, post a picture of that LBT bullet, please.

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PETE posted this 25 April 2009

 Ken,

    Made a mistake. Right bullet wrong mould. Picture attached is the right bullet and the correct mould.

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JeffinNZ posted this 25 April 2009

My Rem 700 1- 12 likes 225415 and REALLY likes the 225462.

I would say any bullet in the 50-60gr range that fits you rifle will shoot well.

Cheers from New Zealand

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KenK posted this 25 April 2009

Thanks Pete, I've got to quit procrastinating and order one of those to fit my Bee.

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PETE posted this 25 April 2009

 Ken,

  If your Bee has the standard twist I've found out that bullets that work the same  for the Hornet will work best in the Bee. I think they have the same twist...... 1-14"??

  With cast bullets I've found the 40 & 45 gr. ones seem to work the best in both the Hornet and Bee. Possibly with heat treated bullets you can drive them fast enuf to maintain the MV for a slightly heavier bullet.

  The reason I bought the Savage was it's 1-9” twist would allow me to use bullets in the 80 to 90 gr. range, possibly even 100 grs. and still keep the MV in a decent accuracy range. The problem, as you know, with the .22's is they are extremely sensitive to the wind no matter how fast you drive them.

  I don't know if it's SOP with LBT but sizing my bullet to .225 sizes the bullet all the way out to the ogive. Even jamming the bullet tight into the rifling puts the bullet base down past the shoulder so had my smith run the throat out so that I have almost a breech seating arrangement. Even sizing the bullet down to .224 didn't help any.

  Jeff,

  You're right in that a 1-12” twist should easily be able handle bullets in the 50 to 60 gr. range. But, as you know it's not bullet wgt. that determines what the twist will handle; but the length.

PETE

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CB posted this 28 April 2009

For 22 centerfires with the usual 1 in 14 or 1 in 12” twist I have had good luck in several rifles with Lyman's 225414 driven at 1500 to 1800fps with something similar to H 2400.

The best accuracy, at least for me and the rifles I have tried, has been about 1.5 moa AVERAGE for five shot groups at 100 yards.  Of course I could quote the few 0.5 moa groups but that is BS.

This bullet, of course, dosen't even start to be competitive at 200 yards because they are so wind sensitive.  But as squirrel ranges they are fine.

John

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CB posted this 28 April 2009

alexanderj wrote: The best accuracy, at least for me and the rifles I have tried, has been about 1.5 moa AVERAGE for five shot groups at 100 yards.  Of course I could quote the few 0.5 moa groups but that is BS.  John

John,

You're breaking all internet rules by saying that. The proper way is to say the gun shoots half inch groups, even if it only did it once, and forget all the other ones. At least that's how it seems to work on a lot of forums. :)  

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leadburner posted this 18 May 2009

The .225646 will probably work ok with 15 or 16 grns. of H-4198.These will run about 2100-2200 fps.Go higher or lower to find best accuracy.Another boolit is the Lee “bator” that you can order from Mid-South shooting supplies.I personally like this boolit in the .223 and in an H&R rifle.I get about 1 inch groups with 16 grains H-4198.As for alloy I use older WW's(15 bnh)with gas checks and Lee alox lube and get no leading.Have fun!!!!!

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OMD posted this 02 June 2009

:lovecast:the 225646 works well in my cz. cast weighs 60.5 gr without gas checks..bhn is 22..twist is 1:9..brass is pmc. trimmed to 1.755” have used 9.0 grn unique chrono'd 1974fps...groups 1"...also expermentin with 2400--workin up trying 11.5 grn havent crono'd yet...we havin fun yet..takin one day at a time...range is hot!!!

<<---//----<<< “Indian Outlaw"

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CB posted this 03 June 2009

223 or 22 centerfires have been at least from my point of view a difficult cartridge(s) to get decent accuracy out of.

Not saying it cant be done, but the journey can be futile at best.

If you were to try and get one to shoot and you have a 1-12 barrel and wanted to shoot lets say 1800 fps, you would need a bullet in the .600 to .630 length range. Weight is of no matter, the bullet length is the important variable, at least in what testing I have done.

The faster the twist rate, the longer and heavier the bullet must be and the slower you will need to shoot it to get good accuracy.

The problem with 22's is that you end up with a bullet that is light and you need to pay particular attention to the environmental variables such as wind.

There is a fellow that has a calculator that uses a modified greenhill formula online at http://www.uslink.net/~tom1/twistrate.htm that you can play with to help you with your journey.

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CB posted this 02 August 2009

I agree with JeffinNZ because he agrees with me about 225415 and 225462 in either a .222 or .223. The RCBS cast in 55 is similar in shape to the 415. Try Unique powder in all 3. Start with a .225 sizing die.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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hunterspistol posted this 02 August 2009

  Since I shoot the little #438 in 22 Hornet, I'd bet on the 55 grain bullets. The 438 with gas check gives me 1&1/2” groups with a 10” barrelled Contender, they like light bullets.  I'd suppose a .223 would go 55-60 grains and up.  The hornet doesn't push the little 45 grain too fast, or it possibly wouldn't work.

A lot of accuracy can be lost in 22 sized bullets by shaving lead and distortion when sizing. The little 22s just work so easy that it's not hard to destroy them. It's not the size of the bullet in relation to your hand, just don't think of them as slippery, or let 'em get that way.

     Were it me, personally, I'd probably opt for the 225415, mainly because it's the type of bullet I'm used to handling. I've wondered about the 646, looks complicated.

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tturner53 posted this 02 August 2009

Anybody else ever tried the 225450? It's obsolete, I guess it didn't sell well. Edit; Hunter, is your 438 the old style? I understand it was modified somewhere along the way. A lot of my Lyman molds are oldies(Ideal), my 438 is kind of wasp wasted.

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hunterspistol posted this 02 August 2009

Mine act that way, the two lube grooves can let it compress some. It seems like the small diameter doesn't take to the size of the grooves but, it's not the original Ideal either.

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tturner53 posted this 03 August 2009

Yep, that's it, 224450. Never seen one anywhere else, I got the mold a long time ago on a bargain table in a gunshop. I'm going through a fast learning curve on .22s with what I'm picking up here. Gonna melt down all my .22 bullets and start over with a new harder alloy. With as many .22 centerfires as I have I want to find some good loads, especially my Savage M40 Hornet single shot. The reason I asked about your 438 was the 1 1/2” groups with the TC. From the picture I see the old 438 is very different, there's a recessed section in the center with 3 lube grooves. The OD of the middle is .202". That oughta compress some too.

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