38 Spl. Ruger "match" revolver

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  • Last Post 09 May 2018
45ACPete posted this 07 January 2017

As a former Bullseye shooter, holder of the distinguished pistol shot medal, and who (once) made President's Hundred at Camp Perry, I was a latecomer to the .38 Spl., except for the rare occasions when I shot an international center fire match with my K-38.  More recently I have acquired a Colt Officer's Model Match and have closely followed Ed Harris' advice in The Fouling Shot as to bullet and brass selection, powder charge(s), etc.  With either of these fine revolvers I shoot about the same scores on the SF NRA targets, whether at 50 ft., 25 yds, or 50 yds--which is usually in the low 80's.  I can't hold as steady at age 75 as I used to, and with two hands I can't shoot the scores I did one handed 25 years ago.  It's still fun to try though, and I'm convinced that my pistol background has helped make me a pretty fair offhand rifle shot.  I would like to have a Ruger target revolver to round out my wheel gun battery, but this is where I am in a bit of a quandary.  I like the Security Six--I have one in SS with the 2 3/4” barrel--but it and the GP-100 have never been chambered in .38 Spl.  Ever heard of either of these retro-fitted with a .38 Spl cylinder and custom barrel?  I'm sure it's been done for PPC, but at what cost?  I know you don't really lose anything by loading .357 brass to .38 WC levels, so that is probably the route I will take.  In that case, I remember one post where it was recommended to seat WC bullets deeper in the case.  Anybody vouch for this?

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David Reiss posted this 07 January 2017

First I would not seat wadcutters below the case rim, due to increased pressure. Seating flush or at the crimp groove is best. GP-100 have been made in .38 special, I have handled and shot a 4” blued model. I am not absolutely positive, but I think there was several runs of .38 specials.

There were also some runs of Security-Sixes in .38 special. I remember in the early 80s, Ruger was making some stainless ones for police only. There may have been others in blue. Ed should be able to confirm this.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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RicinYakima posted this 07 January 2017

While not recommended, and I don't either, I have loaded WC's as deep as the case will allow. Normally this is about 1/4” below the mouth. The reason is that while I shot International Centerfire, with 2.7 grains of Bullseye in a 357 magnum case in my Colt “Three Fifty Seven", I was trying to get a consistent firing. The only way was to reduce the volume behind the bullet. That loading got the pressure all the way up to 8,000 CUP where Bullseye would burn. You are wondering where nobody else goes.

Ruger made lots of 38 Specials in Security Six, during the 1970's. I got to try them out when the LE organization I worked for considered allowing officers to carry them along with S&W's and Colts. FWIW, Ric 

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45ACPete posted this 07 January 2017

That's good to know--that one could find a Security Six in .38 Spl.  Do you think they made any with 6” barrels?

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David Reiss posted this 07 January 2017

I am not about the 6"s, but I can't see that none were ever made, maybe just small runs, but I don't feel like they never did. I just saw 4". Again Ed would probably know. I will PM him and ask if he will respond.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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RicinYakima posted this 07 January 2017

You may very well be correct, David. I only remember the “Speed Six” snubby being available as a commercial gun. However I believe it was J&G down in AZ sold many thousands of 38 Special Security Sixes in the early 1980's, all ex-LE guns.

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Ed Harris posted this 07 January 2017

Ruger has run .38 Special revolvers in both the Security Six/Service Six/Speed Six product lines, as well as for the GP100, when police departments did not want the “magnum” chambering.  The RCMP was a primary customer for .38 Special fixed sight guns made with 5-inch barrels.  When I was with the company (1980s) police distributors could order them. The 5” barrel fixed sight guns were also made in .380 Rimmed (.38 S&W) although the 4” barrel service six was most common in all calibers produced.

Customer Service in the 1980s would refit .38 Spl. cylinders on request for gunsmiths doing PPC guns, etc. The last I heard (2005) the supply of repair parts for the older Security Six/Service Six/Speed Six revolvers was long gone and I was told that they no longer service those models.  I doubt they would recylinder a .357 GP to a .38 Special  anymore, either because that model hasn't been produced for any LE contracts since the late 1980s. I doubt there are any the special run .38 Special cylinders left.

When I was with the company they tested .38 Special wadcutters in .357 Magnum vs. .38 Special cylinders on the same batch of ten guns.  The shorter .38 Spl. chambers did give about 10-15% smaller average group size at 50 yards, but the average shooter would never be able to tell the difference.  One of the changes made which helped in the .357 was reducing the angle of the transition at the chamber mouth from 15 degrees Basic to 6 degrees Basic.  This noticeably improved accuracy of .38 Special lead wadcutter and .38 Special all-lead hollow-point +P rounds (Winchester X38SPD and Remington R38S12) fired in the .357 chambers.

It also mitigated a problem which sometimes occurred firing .38 wadcutters in .357 chambered guns in which the skirt of the hollow-base inflated as it transitioned unsupported across the longer .357 chamber.  The expanded skirt would expand to fill the chamber, then fail in a tension-elongation fracture upon entering the cylinder ball seat.  I witnessed a new-agent class at FLETC average 72+ hits on a 60-shot Tactical Revolver Course due to blown wadcutter skirts with a particular lot of factory wadcutters produced by a well known US manufacturer. Finite element analysis revealed peak pressure occurring as the hollow skirt bridged the unsupported .357 chamber transition, combined with the deep and sharp-cornered lubricant cannelure functioning as a stress riser, as the accelerating front end of the bullet dragged the inflated, ballooned skirt behind it, resulting in the ductile fracture as the expanded skirt was elongated as it entered the ball seat.  

JGS Die & Machine made .357 reamers which could recut the ball seat entrance of existing cylinders without touching the chamber body, furnished to gunsmiths producing PPC guns after .38 Special replacement cylinders ceased to be available.  

 

A production change Ruger made about that time was reducing the barrel forcing cone angle from 18 degrees to 11 degrees, which was beneficial.    A very gradual 6 degree forcing cone shot extremely well with wadcutter ammunition, and was recommended by gunsmiths Jim Clark and Bob Collins.  I had a Clark-Ruger GP100 built for testing with 14” twist Douglas barrel, .357 chamber with 6 degree ball seat transition and 6 degree barrel forcing cone which was the most accurate .357 revolver I ever tested.  As the gun was built on company time it remained there when I left, and it may still be around the engineering dept. somewhere...  I have been told that late production GPs do have the 6 degree forcing cone, but I cannot state that from personal knowledge.  Given proper reamers and gages it would be an easy mod for a gunsmith to do.

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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David Reiss posted this 07 January 2017

Thanks Ed, I knew I had tipped over the cliff yet.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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Eutectic posted this 08 January 2017

The 11 degree forcing cone modification gives better accuracy, we are talking ~1/2 inch reduction in average group size at 50 yards. It has also given me lower leading potential with hunting loads. It is easy, quick and the reamers are inexpensive.

More important is to check the chamber alignment with a match dimension range rod. All the chamber throats should pass the range rod with no resistance. Do this before you buy the gun, as fixing it is expensive or impossible. If the chamber alignment is poor, reaming the throats and forcing cone will not make the revolver a good shooter.

Steve

 

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45ACPete posted this 08 January 2017

As always, Ed--thanks for a very comprehensive reply.  It would appear that a search for a 6” barreled Security Six in .38 Spl. would be like a needle in a haystack, so I guess I'll just keep an eye out for a reasonable deal on a blued .357. version.

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tturner53 posted this 08 January 2017

Is there a handy tutorial/midway or youtube video showing the forcing cone work? I'm keeping my 6” SS Security Six til I die, might as well make it better. If the GP100 looked as good as the Security Six I'd get one, but ....the billboard ad. on the thing bothers me. I don't doubt it's a better gun but I will not likely ever wear my old .357 out.

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RicinYakima posted this 08 January 2017

Brownell makes the tools, so they should have a video somewhere in the reference library. It is hard to find your way around in there, but it has lots of stuff! Ric (Hope you had a Merry Christmas Tim!)

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Ed Harris posted this 09 January 2017

If anyone is serious about this, the tools can be made and existing cylinders and barrels tweaked, which will convert a service-grade gun to a 2-3” 50-yard grouper and a premium quality bull barrel PPC gun to a sub-2-Inch 50 yard grouper.  All it takes is MONEY!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tturner53 posted this 09 January 2017

After a look around the web I found some good stuff. Midwayusa has numerous videos re. revolver work. Best of all was 4D reamer rentals.com. They rent the tools to ream cylinder throats and re-do forcing cones. They provide well done how-to videos. Brownells is a no go for videos on this. I'm seeing here I need to really check timing first. I recall reading I need the “service” rod, not the 'match' for a carry gun.  (As an aside I was reminded 4D rents reamers to rechamber H&R single shots.)  

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 10 January 2017

TT:  you can do excellent reaming by hand at your kitchen table ....   might take a day or two but your job can be better than many gunsmith/lathe  results .

most important tool is PATIENCE ... lots of patience ..... next is the guide pin/bushing for the reamer ... if the guide fits snugly... how can you go wrong ??   heh.  ...push the reamer * in * ... not sideways.

about any lube will work; at slow speeds the lube is just to let the chips slide down into the reamer grooves.

keep the chips buildup no more than half the groove depth ... if they overflow they can go around with the reamer and scratch the finish. clean reamer and hole every plunge . 

you can screw up a little going in, but not on the last 0.050 of depth ...need to be smooth there.

if i can be of any help let me know .

ken

 

 

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Ed Harris posted this 10 January 2017

Eutectic mentioned “range rods” which are used to check timing and indexing of the chambers with the bore axis.  First off, if the location of the barrel hole in the frame is off, so that the radial distance of the chambers from the cylinder axis or “charge hole spacing” does not coincide exactly with the distance from the barrel axis to the cylinder axis, this cannot be “fixed” without swapping cylinders.

The range rod is a perfectly round, cylindrical carbide plug, of length at least four times bore diameter, ground to 0.001” less than minimum bore diameter, and usually silver-soldered to a longer handle.  It should be an easy, sliding fit down the revolver bore.  In use the barrel is first held horizontally, the rod inserted, then the barrel raised slowly to the vertical position and the rod should slide easily down the bore of its own weight, without ANY hand pressure, and do so in turn for each chamber, without being impeded by a “thread choke” or “ticking” against a “ball end” chamber edge.  

In production some other gunmakers used a smaller range rod plug able to pass through a “slight” thread choke.  It is also possible that they did not bother to change plug sizes when adopting different rifling methods which resulted in a larger bore size.

When I was at Ruger during the 1980s thread choke was a 100% check in the barrel shop before frames were sent to assembly.  Any choke was corrected by using a round-hole broach of minimum bore size, made like a range rod, but with its end ground square, leaving a razor edge.  The stripped barrel and frame were immersed in cutting oil and the plug forced through the bore with an arbor press while being supported in a fixture.  The result was a smooth mirror finish on the tops of the lands, although the grooves would remain constricted.   In practice this actually worked well and the guns were accurate.  VERY few complaints were received from either law enforcement or civilian customers, although if anybody did, barrels would be replaced without discussion.

The source of thread choke was determined to be caused by the dimensioning of the barrel thread in the frame, and the barrel shank to produce a class UNF-3A fit, intended to keep barrels from coming loose.  This produced a interference fit of about 0.001".  Later the thread specs were changed to a UNF-2A so that there was no mechanical interference except when an occasional tolerance stacking condition occurred.

Because the range rod plug in a .38 Special or .357 is typically .348 and the “ball end” of the cylinder throats is typically .358” you have some “wiggle room” for the gun to index and “range” on all six charge holes.  In service-grade DA revolvers it is normal for the hand or pawl to over-rotate the cylinder a wee bit, as a built-in compensation for wear, but if the amount of over-rotation approaches 5 degrees a “ticker” may result, which can be easily corrected by swapping out the hand or pawl which rotates the cylinder.  In a worn gun which times a bit “slow” such that the chambers aren't rotated quite into alignment and locking engagement nwith the cylinder stop or bolt when the hammer drops in DA, a wider (S&W) or longer (Colt) hand is fitted.

The lockwork of S&Ws and Colt is different.  The Ruger is a hybrid with some features of both. In the Colt locking is not complete until the trigger is held back, whereas in the S&W the cylinder stop or bolt should engage the locking bolt notches in the cylinder at each chamber as the hammer falls.

Wear or peening of the locking bolt notches of the cylinder caused by cylinder backspin in the S&W are caused by firing heavy magnum loads.  If there is any mis-alignment of the chambers, as the bullet exits the front of the cylinder and begins to enter the barrel, the base of the bullet is still held captive by the cylinder as its forepart starts to engrave and the mismatch forcefully rotates the cylinder into alignment with the bore axis.  Not only does this cause bullet deformation, but it beats up the cylinder notches when extreme and is the major cause for S&W Model 29 .44 Magnums having to be re-cylindered.

On the early “Registered” .357 Magnums you sometimes see hardened steel shims fitted into the cylinder notches which was done at the factory to resist this peening.

The Ruger lockwork has characteristics which function like a hybrid of the Colt & S&W systems.  The newer Redhawk, GP and SP series are a bit different than the original Security Six/Service Six/Speed Six series, and I am less familiar with the current Ruger DAs than the older ones not in production, so on the current guns I will defer to the fellows who work on them.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 10 January 2017

"On the early “Registered” .357 Magnums you sometimes see hardened steel shims fitted into the cylinder notches which was done at the factory to resist this peening."

This was a carry over from the failed experience with this during 1919. At the end of WW1, S&W was using the same steel and process that they had used since the chance to smokeless powder proofing. While it made hand fitting and polishing beautifully done, it just was not durable enough. I have had two 38 S&W Regulation Police models from 1919 and both had the hardened steel inserts in the notches. It was very costly to do and required many more steps to complete the cylinder.  Walter Roper was an engineer at S&W and convince them to start heat treating the 32 WCF revolvers in 1920. This was so successful that by 1927 all S&W revolvers had hardened cylinders and frames. It was surprising to read that the large frame 44's were the last to be converted. I guess because they had enough “meat” in the cylinder for the only loads available, unlike the hot loaded 32/20's and 38 Special police loads,

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tturner53 posted this 10 January 2017

Thanks for all the info! I could read this all day. But it's time to do something. I'll rent the tools from 4D and then report. Time to break down and spend money.

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pathology101 posted this 09 May 2018

I have a gp100 in .357 but I only shoot .38s....I plan on shooting 357 cases with .38 loads. Great gun. I am going to go and shoot it right after this response. Mine is a 6 inch.

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BigMan54 posted this 09 May 2018

I bought one of the first Security-Sixes in the 151 prefix series. It was a STS with 2.75" bbl.  Touching off one of those #358156GC over 16grs of 2400 was an experience. It went back to RUGER for a 6" bbl the next month. In those days they still returned the old bbl. Still got it floating around somewhere, put a pair of HERRETT Shooting Stars on it.  I went to a target load of #358429 over 6.5grs of UNIQUE.  Both those loads are NOW WAY BEYOND MAXIMUM. I DON'T RECOMMEND THEM TO ANYONE. 

But I still missed the the shorty. So I picked up a SPEED-SIX with 2.75" bbl. My sister latched on to that and I didn't get it back for almost 40yrs. I found a Service-Six in STS with a 3" bbl. I Round-butted it to match the SPEED-SIX profile, added PACHMAYR Compacts and burned up a LOT of that heavy target load. Still use it for a house gun. 

But the only experience I had with the S-S series in .38SPL was the used Police Security-Six my Dad  got about 1984. He wanted to replace the COLT OFFICIAL POLICE he'd lost in a burglary. He shot a lot of the .38-44 load of the #358429 over 5grs of UNIQUE in that gun. Wish I could've got my hands on it when he passed. He could put round after round into 2.5" or less at 25yds all day long. That load is WAY OVER +P MAXIMUM THESE DAYS. I WARN ANYONE TO FIRE IT IN .357MAG CHAMBERED GUNS ONLY.  

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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