357 low pressure

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  • Last Post 06 May 2008
Clubkey posted this 01 May 2008

Good morning everyone!

Looking for a good low pressue load suggestion for the .357 Mag with a 158gr CB BNH approximately 5 SWCHP w/gc bullet using either Unique or 2400 powder. I would like to keep the MV down around the 1000-1050 FPS range from a 4” bbl. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

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giorgio de galleani posted this 01 May 2008

4 to 5  grains of a fast shotgun powder that flows well from your measure.

I think that 2400 and similar powders do not burn well at low pressure and speed.

I find that 357 cowboy revolvers and carbine work well  either with 38sp and 357 brass.

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Ed Harris posted this 01 May 2008

Clubkey wrote: Looking for a good low pressue load suggestion for the .357 Mag with a 158gr CB BNH approximately 5 SWCHP w/gc bullet using either Unique or 2400 powder. I would like to keep the MV down around the 1000-1050 FPS range from a 4” bbl. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  #2400 powder isn't what you want.  To get the velocity you want you could use 10 to 11 grs. in a .357 case, but in a 4-inch revolver you may get much unburned powder, erratic ignition and non-uniform ballistics, so I do not recommend this. 

To approximate the ballistics of the Winchester 158-gr. lead hollowpoint +P “FBI” load in the .38 Special when loaded in .357 brass you can use a charge of 4.0 to 4.5 grs. of Bullseye, 4.5 to 5.0 grs. of W231 or 5.0-6.0 grs. of Unique.  If your revolver has typical cylinder gap of 0.006” these should give 900-950 fps in a 4” barrel.   You could safely increase these charges in .357 brass by up to a grain as needed to get the velocity you want, but if using a soft bullet to obtain expansion, revolver accuracy will suffer very much above 900 fps whether you use a GC or not.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Clubkey posted this 01 May 2008

Giorgio,

Thank you for your reply and the information you have provided.

 

Ed,

Thank you as well. I really appreciate the input from you two Gentlemen.

To be honest I never figured the #2400 would be ideal for the load I suggested, but I did want to let folks know I had more than one type of powder available.

You are absolutely correct in my trying to duplicate the +P FBI load, but with the 357 Mag case. I kinda figured that Unique powder would better serve my purposes. I did some cyphering on the Alliant web site and with Richard Lee's Modern Reloading earlier today and I came up in the same general ballpark with the 5.0-6.0gr. charge of Unique as you suggested. It's satisfying to have someone much more knowledgeable in CB reloading than myself to confirm what I had figured would be a good place to start.

I have been reloading since the mid-60's, but in all that time I have primarily only loaded jacketed bullets in all my firearms and especially so after some serious leading problems with swaged bullets early on in my reloading. I will heed your advice and keep that 5 BHN bullet at or just under the 900 FPS mark. I don't want experience the barrel/cylinder leading and poor accuracy problem again.

Thanks again Gentlemen for your helpful advice and have a great day.

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sniper posted this 01 May 2008

Clubkey: 

 I used 5.5 gr. Unique under either the RCBS 150gr SWC bullet, or commercial cast 158gr SWCs for IPSC. Nice load. It chronoed at 860 fps from my 4” 586. 

 However, in the True Spirit of Never Leaving Well Enough Alone, I am now trying ~6-6.5gr Unique to see if I can match the famous FBI, Chicago, or Dade County loads, at ~1000+fps., without leading.  

I have a can of Blue Dot I bought from a coworker some years ago, and it doesn't seem to work quite as well as the Unique.  But, I have to shoot it up somehow, soooo... about 10 gr. should do for lighter jacketed bullets, or maybe even the cast 158s.

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Clubkey posted this 01 May 2008

Sniper,

Hello sir!

If memory serves me right, I believe the original FBI/Chicago load, 38 Special 158gr LSWCHP +P had a published MV of 890 FPS from a 4” Bbl. You are pretty much already there with your current load and I'd bet that with just slightly more powder you'd be right on the money as far as velocity goes. However, the original load used soft swaged lead bullets and from my experience would lead pretty badly after a few rounds. I realize my 5 BHN cast bullets are probably equally as soft, but hope the GC's help some to prevent the leading.

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454PB posted this 02 May 2008

sniper wrote:

I have a can of Blue Dot I bought from a coworker some years ago, and it doesn't seem to work quite as well as the Unique.  But, I have to shoot it up somehow, soooo... about 10 gr. should do for lighter jacketed bullets, or maybe even the cast 158s. That recipe is one of my favorites. Bluedot needs higher pressures to perform well. A 160 gr. cast in front of 10 gr. of Bluedot does about 1250 fps. in all my .357 revolvers.

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RicinYakima posted this 02 May 2008

Clubkey,

I have been working with the Lyman 358156 HP cast from 30/1 alloy. With NRA 50/50 lube you can get up to the 900 f/s without leading if you lube all of the grooves and the 38 Spl crimp groove. I use a .360 sizer just to crimp the gascheck and shoot them unsized in my Colt “357". They shoot really well, but are a pain to cast.

Ric

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giorgio de galleani posted this 02 May 2008

A pain casting Ray's 357 bullets?

I use a lyman 4 cavity bullet mould,that I bought from  www. midsouthshooterssupply.com.at reasonable price.

Though alumunum gangs moulds are lighter  than those made of iron,the high output of gang moulds make this hot and dirty work of casting bullets a little more unpleasant

I endure an hour of music from a cd player (baroque string or trumpets and old irish songs) or as soon as the Lee 20 lbs pot is empty.  .

 

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giorgio de galleani posted this 02 May 2008

You were talking of the Lyman hollow point molds,with the cavity insert that has to be removed from the mould every time.You are right,

That's a cruel pain. I have minie moulds in which you do not have to  drop the cavity out from the mould  every time, from other makers ,they keep all themoulds  parts  together they stay hot and work better.

Does anybody knows a 357 gas check hollow point 120 grs mould for 9mm and 357?

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Ed Harris posted this 02 May 2008

Clubkey wrote: ...If memory serves me right, I believe the original FBI/Chicago load, 38 Special 158gr LSWCHP +P had a published MV of 890 FPS from a 4” Bbl. You are pretty much already there with your current load and I'd bet that with just slightly more powder you'd be right on the money as far as velocity goes. However, the original load used soft swaged lead bullets and from my experience would lead pretty badly after a few rounds. I realize my 5 BHN cast bullets are probably equally as soft, but hope the GC's help some to prevent the leading.

The so-called “FBI” or “Chicago” loads are identified by Winchester as their X38SPD, by Remington as the R38S12 and by Federal as their 38G. All are loaded to the same nominal specification of 890 fps from a 4-inch vented test barrel with .008 cylinder gap.  This approximates revolver velocity, but it is normal for sample averages to deviate +/- 30 fps or so from that.  In a 3-inch barrel you can expect to lose 30 fps compared to a 4” revolver having the same cylinder gap.  Each .001 reduction in cylinder gap below the maximum .008” increases velocity about 5 fps., so a 3” gun with minimum .003 gap will give about the same velocity as a 4 inch gun with .008 gap. Firing from a 2 inch snubby will lose 60 fps. compared to a 4-inch barrel with the same cylinder gap.  You gain about 60 fps by firing in a longer 6” barrel, compared to a 4 inch.  

Carrying it a step further, in firing most .38 Special +P loads from an 18 inch Marlin you gain about 150 fps over the 4 inch vented test barrel over the long run.  The most velocity gain occurs as barrel length increases from 4” to about 10".  After that as the expansion ratio increases adiabatic expansion is overcome by increased friction.  I have tested these loads in a 28” rifle barrel and velocity is not significant different from firing in an 18" barrel, but while the report is somewhat quieter than the shorter barrel, the bullet is still supersonic. 

You are correct that the factory loads used soft lead to ensure expansion from short barrels, and that leading was a constant problem which both caused cylinder binding and degraded accuracy.  This was mitigated in service use by lubricating the crane arbor with a drop of Dextron II ATF or Mil-L-43460B and repeating every 50 rounds or as needed if the cylinder assembly could not be proerly disassembled for thorough cleaning. 

Use of a GC may strenghen the bullet base and reduce its deformation somewhat, but in my experience a GC has little or no effect in mitigating leading of the revolver forcing cone, which is where most of the problem is.   

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Clubkey posted this 02 May 2008

Wow, I'm thankful I found this forum... Most other forums I either visit or am a member at when you ask a similar question as to what my original was you either get no responses at all or some guy who wants to argue with you. Not here though and that's very refreshing. Thanks Gentlemen for all the responses and the very useful information contained within.

Ed,

You sound like a very knowledgeable Gentleman and I appreciate all the extra information you provide with each of your responses. Much similar to you, I pay attention to details and question what I don't understand and search out that little bit of extra information that changes good enough into satisfaction. Thank You.:^: 

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sniper posted this 02 May 2008

Clubkey and Ed: 

I also apreciate the good information forthcoming on the site, even if I haven't posted much.

Thanks for the info on the FBI/Chicago load.  I read somewhere that it was slightly hotter...or was it the Canadian Mountie load? 

Memory not what it used to be...:)  

Oh, well, it will  be easier to duplicate an ~900 fps. load.  I have Blue Dot, Unique and  a can labeled something like Universal Clays, so I have lots of shooting to do with my  Rcbs 150 KT SWC, which I used to love for my S&W model 19, before I quit casting years ago.  I have a new (to me) RCBS 162 SWC GC mould, too, which I am excited to try. 

In bygone days, I used a mixture of wheelweight, lead and 50-50 bar solder to get what I fervently hoped was somewhere close to Lyman #2 alloy. I wouldn't bet the farm on that, but, I got NO leading EVER!  Sticky red stuff for lube I think came with my Lee sizer in the days before Alox liquid. 

I have some Lyman#2, and wheelweight, and I think I will use about 20% Lyman mixed with the wheel weights, and maybe I can obtain the accuracy and non-leading of the past.   :cool:

Till next time. 

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Ed Harris posted this 02 May 2008

sniper wrote: Thanks for the info on the FBI/Chicago load.  I read somewhere that it was slightly hotter...or was it the Canadian Mountie load?  Memory not what it used to be...:)   I'm not aware of what the RCMP used, but 890 fps from the 4” vented barrel is what you can get within normal industry +P pressures.  I'm not aware that any US manufacturer has attemped a +P+ law enforcement load with a lead bullet, as they have enough leading problems with ordinary +P if they use an alloy soft enough to expand in a hollowpoint bullet.  +P+ loads are about 15% higher pressure than industry +P standard and are an attempt to boost jacketed bullet velocity with a heavier bullet to a level to ensure expension.  The Federal 147-gr. Hydrashok +P+ law enforcement loads in the .38 Special give  900 fps from my 2 inch Ruger SP101 and expand like their 38G lead bullet +P load, but without the bore leading.   

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Clubkey posted this 05 May 2008

Ed,

Afternoon!

I've been thinking :thinking: and I guess that can be kinda dangerous, but the thoughts have led to another question.

Guess I should have addressed this question from the beginning of this thread, but it's tough getting old cause us geezers sometimes forget important information. Normally when I carry my Model 686 I also carry a S&W Model 37 (pre-lock) 38 Special aluminum frame snubby as my BUG. I now realize it would be much more important to have ammunition that will safely chamber and fire in both firearms. So, I guess what I really should be asking for is a load recommendation that would safely be close to the FBI/Chicago load that will safely function is the 38 Special Lightweight Model 37.

I have several publications, some old some new and their recommendations for a powder charge with the 158gr LSWCHP vary plenty. Alliant's max load recommendation is 4.5grs, but some of the other publications vary from 5.0 to as much as 5.5 grains of Unique. Pressures varying from 16,100 CUP to 18,000 PSI, sure wish all those manuals would adopt one system for measuring chamber pressure. What would be your thoughts on this?

Bye-the-way, I know not to feed the Model 37 a steady diet of +P ammunition.

Thanks for your assistance and thoughts.

Respectfully.

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Ed Harris posted this 05 May 2008

Clubkey wrote: ... Normally when I carry my Model 686 I also carry a S&W Model 37 (pre-lock) 38 Special aluminum frame snubby as my BUG...  I now realize it would be much more important to have ammunition that will for is a load recommendation that would safely be close to the FBI/Chicago load that will safely function is the 38 Special Lightweight Model 37.  Bye-the-way, I know not to feed the Model 37 a steady diet of +P ammunition. Thanks for your assistance and thoughts. My advice is to shoot the M37 with +P but only rarely and occasionally.  Carry factory X38SPD factory loads in it, but shoot no more of them than you absolutely must to establish that it goes BANG! and hits where you need it to.  Fire no more than 1 box of +P in it over the life of the gun and you will be OK.   Keep a log book, count your rounds and have a gunsmith check timing, barrel-cylinder alignment, cylinder end play, headspace and cylinder gap annually or after every 500 rounds.  If any repairs are needed do not postpone them.   These are not really durable guns if shot alot. 

Use only standard velocity non+P loads for any practice you do with it, but I recommend that with any airweight J frame you don't shoot it “alot."  It would be best to buy a matching steel frame version of the same gun to practice with and leave the airweight for carry only, once you have determined that it “works."

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Tycer posted this 06 May 2008

This is from a post on the Smith-WessonForum from Feb, '07.

It's long, but relevant to me. I use the Speer #8 data for my 2” .38 Special self defense loads. There is a section specifically for that. That was the last manual before Olin bought them.

Scroll down to Saxon Pig's post.

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Clubkey posted this 06 May 2008

Hey Tycer,

Good morning!

I recognize you from another forum we frequent and I guess I should have posed this question there as well, but it is kinda off topic there.

As I read the link that you submitted memories from the mid-60's, when I purchased and started reloading for my first S&W Model 10 M&P and a Colt DS returned to me. Thank you for bringing those memories back to me and a knowledge that has always been there, but obviously dulled over the passage of time.

Thank you Sir.

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Tycer posted this 06 May 2008

Thanks for the kudos, but they belong to whoever Saxon Pig is. I found that thread last year while developing a personal defense load for an old flatlatch model 36 and saved is as a PDF.

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Clubkey posted this 06 May 2008

Hello Again Tycer,

Thanks to you I also remember having purchased a Speer #8 manual myself, but I loaned it to a friend long ago, who incidentally moved outta state several years ago. No matter cause I ordered one from Amazon after reading your post earlier this morning.

And yes, I do owe you a thanks for your post and link in this thread. :dude: So, “Thanks My Friend!"

Respectfully

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