223 Casting Questions

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  • Last Post 30 April 2017
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zhughes posted this 28 January 2017

Hi all, have some questions for ya'll. I've been casting and reloading pistol for several months now and have had lots of success. I'm ready to dive into rifle now and would like to try casting for my AR. I've read tons of forums where folks say not worth it, others say they do it all the time. We'll, I love casting so I'm going to crack the code. Anyway, have some questions. First, I bought the Lee 6 cavity 223 mold which allows for a gas check. Since I'll be powder coating, can I still seat this type of bullet with no gas check? Also, it seems lots of folks recommend harder alloys for 223. Will regular old wheel weight lead do the trick here? I don't have a tester, don't really want to drop the cash on one if it's really not going to make that big of a difference at the end of the day. This might help hone in responses - my goal would be to have descent groups at 100 yards. With pistol, getting the right mojo for all the different variables involved to be accurate at 30 feet and no leading was cake. I suspect theirs a bit more finnese trying to get the right workup for a 55gn bullet at 100 yards. My barrel twist is 1:7 BTW. Thanks all for your input!

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OU812 posted this 28 January 2017

Gary wrote:

I shoot the Lyman 225646 cast in Lyman #2 sized/checked .225", tumble lubed Whites Deluxe 45:45:10 once before size/check then twice after. My charge is the lightest H4895 or AA2230 charge that gives reliable function in my AR. The load consistently groups 1.2' @100 yards benched. My rifle has a 22” HB 1:7. My bullet all up weight in #2 is 59 gr. My ammo is loaded on a Lee Classic Cast Turret. Cases are flaired .004 before seating bullets and the last step closes that slight flair with a slight .004” past FL size adjusted Lee FCD. Ignoring my specific flare then crimp steps makes the AR shoot groups twice as big. My brass is mixed NATO and checked for length /trimmed after every sizing with a Lee Zip Trim

The mold is currently available at Midway:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/790896/lyman-2-cavity-bullet-mold-225646-22-caliber-225-diameter-55-grain-semi-point-gas-check

Handles are separately sold and not included with the mold.

 

I use the standard Lee Lube and Size Kit .225” on my Lee Single station press for size/check:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/104209/lee-bullet-lube-and-sizing-die-kit-225-diameter

 

The load knocks over competition silhouettes to 100yd  just fine and also murders giant snapping turtles with gusto. My bullets fit well and I have zero leading. That is pretty good for cast in an AR, The same load groups slightly better, just under 1",  from my .223 NEF Ultra Varmint rifle. I only shoot cast all calibers I load to .458 WM.

 

Gary

 

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David Reiss posted this 28 January 2017

zhughes,

I am just getting started in shooting cast bullets in an AR, but I have quite a bit experience with them in a Mini-14 and SKSs. The rumor about not shooting CBs in semi-auto rifles comes from people whom have never tried it. 

As far as alloy goes, that is going to depend on the velocity. Staying under 1800 fps I think WW alloy may be ok, but every rifle, bullet, load combo is different. You may need to heat treat your bullets or just water quench them, a hardness tester is not needed. I never tried velocities over 2000 with any of my loads, because once they cycled the action and gave acceptable accuracy, I stopped. But I also never used any of the rounds for long range target or varmint work. With wanting accuracy out to 100 yards, I think you too can find what you want staying under 1800 fps. 

Since your rifle has a 1:7 twist, it may be to your advantage to look to a heavier bullet in the future, say something in the 65 - 70 gr. range. This will make your loads less subject to wind deflection out beyond 100 yards.

Last I would dump the powder coating idea and stick with a more traditional bullet lube and definately use a gas check.. 

Just my two cents, I will be posting my range results when I have them. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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Scearcy posted this 28 January 2017

+1 on not powder coating initially.  45-45-10 properly applied will do everything you need IMO.  +1 on the gas check for sure.  Plain base will likely involve difficulties you don't need. NOE has a 70 gr mold that shoots well.  Good luck.  Keep us in the loop on your successes and failures.  Many of us have not tried the AR platform yet.

Jim

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zhughes posted this 28 January 2017

Hi appreciate all the info. I do water quench as part of my ritual so that's good. As far as powder coat goes, I'm probably one of the very few reloaders who has never lubed a bullet and never plan to. I don't own any lube and will likely never buy it. I started day one powder coating for pistol against recommendations but I've had nothing but great success. I'll definitely be coating 223 rounds, I was just curious to see if the powder coaters out there gas check or not - and if you can load a gas check bullet without a gas check. If there's no harm in skipping the gas check outside of leading, I'd like to try with and without to see what kind of results I get in accuracy.

Thanks all!

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JeffinNZ posted this 28 January 2017

I think the water quenching is a good idea.  1-7 twist is putting a lot of duress on that bullet.  I know from a LOT of shooting that my 6.5 Carcano with it's 1-8.25 twist will not shoot consistently with alloy less than the BHN of No. 2. 

Cheers from New Zealand

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 28 January 2017

powder coating ... check the archives here with the search function .   there has been quite a lot of interesting tests with the goal of high velocity with powder coating ...  we changed our software, so unfortunately the graphics are probably missing ....

...and we need a lot more of such reports, so please feel free to add your observations as you go along ...

ken

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BigMan54 posted this 05 April 2017

Ok ,

I've been reading a bit on lead in the AR platform.  I was raised on the idea; NEVER shoot lead bullets in a GAS-OPERATED GUN.

When I was shooting for a DESERT EAGLE .44 back in the late 1980'S, IMI included a “tool” to clean the the lead out of the gas system. They also admonished you NOT TO SHOOT  LEAD in the gun. I did put a 100 rds of #429244GC, sized .430 dia. over a full charge of 2400 & cast of LINOTYPE, lubed with 50/50.  It took some elbow grease to clean the LEAD outa that pistol.  Never did it again.

So what happens when the lead particles pass into the gas port and go down the tube ?

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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David Reiss posted this 05 April 2017

Ok ,

I've been reading a bit on lead in the AR platform.  I was raised on the idea; NEVER shoot lead bullets in a GAS-OPERATED GUN.

When I was shooting for a DESERT EAGLE .44 back in the late 1980'S, IMI included a “tool” to clean the the lead out of the gas system. They also admonished you NOT TO SHOOT  LEAD in the gun. I did put a 100 rds of #429244GC, sized .430 dia. over a full charge of 2400 & cast of LINOTYPE, lubed with 50/50.  It took some elbow grease to clean the LEAD outa that pistol.  Never did it again.

So what happens when the lead particles pass into the gas port and go down the tube ?

The leading issue or lack of it in AR platform rifles is really not much of an issue. I have been shooting cast bullet loads in ARs & Mini-14s for many years without any issues. If you are concerned about it, spray some gumout in the gas tube and it will eliminate any build-up. I have one Mini-14 which I've shot close to 8,000 cast bullet rounds thru and have never had any issue with lead at all.

Some years back one of our members did a test with a Garand shooting a few thousand rounds without any cleaning or failures. When he was done he broke it down and found no build-up of lead in the gas port.

The only place you may find some lead build up will be in the flash hider or muzzle break.  


David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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onondaga posted this 06 April 2017

BigMan54

 

   I had a Desert Eagle 44 AutoMag in the 1980's too. I got mine to shoot cast fine. I bought 200 rounds factory ammo and then reloaded only cast, setting up bullet fit and alloy selection the same way I recommend it regularly in any firearm with cast to members here. I regularly beat club competitors with their jacketed/factory ammo. I don't think there is a firearm that can't be setup to shoot well with cast. You could have enjoyed a lot of inexpensive fun shooting cast in the Desert Eagle, I sure did.  

Gary

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SierraHunter posted this 06 April 2017

My AR has a 20” semi heavy barrel chambered in 223 Wylde with 1-9 twist. I having tried a whole lot of cast, but from what I have tried, it likes the 70gn NOE, and I had no trouble getting 2 MOA with the iron sights. My alloy was about 18 BHN, with a gas check, lubed with a my home lube recipe.

I have found that with the PC, if you run it much faster then about 1600 FPS, you will start to get a build up in your barrel, at least with the cheaper powders. This stuff, once in a barrel is nearly impossible to remove. I'm fact, I still am trying to figure out how to get it all out if my 6x45.

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SierraHunter posted this 06 April 2017

Hi appreciate all the info. I do water quench as part of my ritual so that's good. As far as powder coat goes, I'm probably one of the very few reloaders who has never lubed a bullet and never plan to. I don't own any lube and will likely never buy it. I started day one powder coating for pistol against recommendations but I've had nothing but great success. I'll definitely be coating 223 rounds, I was just curious to see if the powder coaters out there gas check or not - and if you can load a gas check bullet without a gas check. If there's no harm in skipping the gas check outside of leading, I'd like to try with and without to see what kind of results I get in accuracy. Thanks all!

If you insist on coating, I would use a gascheck. You may need to put the gascheck on the bullet before coating them though.

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David Reiss posted this 06 April 2017

I always lube my bullets with conventional lubes, I am just not sold on powder coating, even though I have tired it on pistol calibers. With conventional lubes in the AR, no problems encountered.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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zhughes posted this 07 April 2017

Thanks for all the info! I think I'm going to go ahead and give the gas checks a try with a powder coated projectile....as soon as it warms up (any day now here in Ohio > &nbsp<img class= and I get some more time over the melting pot.

I do wish I read more before buying the 55gr mold. It was the only one in 223 that Lee offered in a 6 cavity so I went with it.

Thanks again everyone!

 

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BigMan54 posted this 07 April 2017

I did have lots of cheap  shooting.  I had an acquaintance who paid for all the components we could shoot. I just cranked them out on an old Pro-Jector  .

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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BigMan54 posted this 30 April 2017

Well I guess I was really wrong about LEAD bullets in Gas-operated guns.

I was skimming through my copy of the old LYMAN #1 Handbook of Cast bullets. Sure enough I found an entry on page #87 for cast bullets in the M1 GARAND.

Of course these are with the old version's of powders still with us today. There are 4 different loads listed with 3 different bullets. Two of which are still cataloged by LYMAN today.

If there is any interest in this info, and the Webmaster gives the OK, I'll be glad to list them.  It's a good place for me to start my load development.  

 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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