Basic S&W tighten-up?

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tturner53 posted this 24 October 2016

I've completed some fairly complex home gun plumber projects. I have Kuhnhausen's books. What I'm looking for is more of the 'Idiot's Guide to Basic adjustments". My old M&P and 1905 work ok but I'm wondering if there's a simple way to just tighten 'em up a little. I see the shims offered but don't know much about how to go about it. They work in the old guns? Or should I just relax about it? They are reliable enough for business as is.

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358156hp posted this 25 October 2016

They are designed to run pretty tight. Are you talking about endshake issues? Endshake occurs as the gun “wears", and is found in two different spots. The first to check for is endshake where the yoke enters the frame. There should be zero endshake here. Sometimes yoke endshake can be corrected by swapping out the yoke retaining screw for a slightly larger one. Sometimes it's necessary to shim the yoke instead. It just depends on how much you find.

The second type of endshake encountered is where the cylinder slides back and forth a bit on the yoke. This can often be dealt with by peening the yoke, or by shimming. Sometimes it is necessary to even out the end of the yoke that goes into the cylinder before shimming it. Sometimes you get lucky and can just drop a shim in for satisfactory results.

If you're working with the yoke anyway, it really should be checked for straightness. Sometimes they're bent a bit and need to be straightened. This requires a special jig to do. Look up “endshake” in your Kuhnhausen S&W book and you'll find detailed instructions on how to approach these issues.

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David Reiss posted this 26 October 2016

I am a factory certified S&W armorer with over 35 years experience. If you will email me I can give you my phone # and explain how to do this over the phone. [email protected]

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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tturner53 posted this 26 October 2016

Thanks guys. This will be a winter project. Keep me out of the bars and such. I'll try the shim advice. And only a fool would not take up an offer of having an experienced armorer to call. email coming.  EDIT: And God bless Texas! Love that place. I'd move there if I wasn't so attached to my wife.

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Ed Harris posted this 26 October 2016

Please post an update of what you did and how it worked.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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David Reiss posted this 26 October 2016

After I talk to him I will post the problem & solution. I don't like trying to diagnose and solve a problem like this just by words. For me it is just easier to talk to someone and that way I can ask questions as we go. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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tturner53 posted this 27 October 2016

Thanks for the interest. I've pulled my K frames out of the box and opened my Kuhnhausen book. I'm seeing that a quick down and dirty approach isn't a good idea. Kuhnhausen has some choice words in the book for this type of hacking. “Parts changers” is his kindest words and he said worse. So I'll start with a range trip. Accuracy speaks for itself. Besides the oldies I have a nice K38 and M19-5 for control and comparison. I need to review the basic 'check-out' procedure but my guess is mainly I'm looking at timing and cylinder end shake. (Listening for clicks is a good trick with my ears!) So, this could become a 'before and after' type story. Shoot some, tinker and tune, shoot again. Oughta keep me busy. I'll post as things go along.   EDIT: For a standard to go by I'll go with Ed's 1” for every 10 yds. as a goal. If these old gals will shoot 2 1/2” at 25 yds. I'm calling it good. I'm not sure I'm up to the task myself regardless of how well the gun shoots! Lotta research to do. Shot the K38 and M19-5 in matches but have misplaced the data.

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Ed Harris posted this 27 October 2016

FYI the “One Inch Per Ten” (yards) was a British Army standard which dates to the black powder era and came of age with the transition from the outside lubricated .476 Enfield, to the inside lubricated, hollowbased, .455 Mark I blackpowder load in 1887.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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David Reiss posted this 28 October 2016

After speaking with Tim over the phone it was determined that he had several issues, but not all of them that could affect the tightness of the revolvers. So I will cover each one, one at a time, explaining the issue, how to recognize it and how to resolve it.  1) Yoke endshake - This is where the yoke has back and forth play in the frame. To determine whether this condition affects your S&W revolver, remove the cylinder from the gun and replace the yoke in the frame.  As a side note there is only one proper way to remove the cylinder from the gun. Remove the sideplate or frame screw that retains the yoke/cylinder assembly. Turn the gun back over so the left side is facing you and depress the thumbpiece so it releases the cylinder. Now open the cylinder and hold it in place while you slide the yoke off the cylinder and the frame. Now you can just lift the cylinder assembly up and off the gun. This prevents sliding the cylinder across the frame and scratching it.  Now place the yoke back in the frame and see if you have any back and forth play from muzzle to breech face. If it is excessive, then it can be corrected by replacing the screw with a larger one or simply by “peening” the screw tip. This is by trial and error, peening and filing any excessive peening until you have removed the yoke endshake. The area on the yoke where the screw holds it in can been peened also, which is how most experience smith's correct this issue. However for the amateur smith, I suggest the other methods described.  2) Cylinder endshake - This is where the cylinder has excessive play, back and forth on the yoke barrel. The way to check for this is simply to try and move the cylinder back and forth while the gun is intact. Make sure any yoke endshake is corrected before checking. To fix it properly, the end of the yoke barrel needs to be peened in order to lengthen it removing the endshake. This can be done one of two ways, but regardless of which method you choose, a liner must be placed in the yoke barrel to prevent crushing it.  The first method involves peening the end of the yoke barrel with a small ball peen hammer. This is not as precise as method #2, but it can be done if you take your time and keep the insert in place. I am not going to elaborate here on this method, but anyone wanting further instructions can ask me. Method #2 uses a inexpensive “modified” tubing cutter. I have inserted photos of the items needed to do this. The cutting wheel on the tubing cutter is removed from the cutter and placed on any metal rod just fitting through it's center. The cutting wheel is then moved up against a moving grinding wheel and allowed to grind away the cutting surface creating a flat surface around its circumference. This flat area need to be anywhere from 1/16” to 1/8” wide. Then the cutting wheel is place back on the tubing cutter. Now you have a tool that will “peen or swage” the end of the yoke barrel, lengthening it slightly to remove the endshake. The flattened cutting wheel is now place approximately 3/16” from the end of the yoke barrel, with the liner in place, and tightened as you would using a normal tubing cutter. Once it is snug in place, give the tightening handle another twist before rotating the cutter around the yoke barrel. Once it is loose after rotating, tighten the wheel once again and rotate, until loose. Now reassemble the yoke / cylinder onto the gun and check for endshake. If it is still present, repeat the swagging process until it is removed. If you over do it a little and the cylinder won't rotate freely, remove the yoke and with a wide flat fine file, make one stroke across the end of the yoke barrel and try it to see if it will rotate freely now. If not, repeat the single file strokes until it does. Once it does, wipe a light film of gun oil on the end of the yoke barrel and you are done.  More tightening of the S&W revolver is to come in part two.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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David Reiss posted this 28 October 2016

 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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David Reiss posted this 28 October 2016

3) Timing. To check for proper timing, slowly, very slowly, cock the hammer back until it locks back in single action battery. Now attempt to turn the cylinder and see if it moves and you hear the audible click of the cylinder stop engaging the notch on the cylinder. You need to do this on every chamber. If on any of them the cylinder stop does not engage the stop notch and the cylinder can be turned further into lock-up, then you have a timing issue. This can be solved by replacing the hand with a slightly larger or oversized hand. For example “K” frame hands usually run .091” to .095” and one just .001” to .002” larger will most times solve your timing issue. Hands are measured as shown in the photo below, just below the hook. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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David Reiss posted this 28 October 2016

4) Lock-up - Lock-up is the engagement between the cylinder stop and the cylinder notches. This is easily checked by bringing the cylinder into lockup on each chamber. Don't confuse this with timing, which is the the cylinder being rotated far enough each time that the cylinder stop falls into place just by pulling the trigger or hammer. Bring the cylinder into engagement with the cylinder stop and check to see if the cylinder can be rotated back and forth. A small amount of play is ok, say .001 to .002", much more and your cylinder stop is worn and will need to be replaced if you intend to fire it more than just a couple times a year. Make sure you check each chamber for this condition.   5) You may experience some wobble of the cylinder at the breech face end. This is caused by a worn cylinder center pin, seldom is it the hole in the frame in which the pin protrudes contacting the bolt. Any perceived wobble should be repaired by replacing the center pin and not ignored. This play or wobble can be detected by trying to move the cylinder side to side near the breech face while the action is at rest.  These are the most common issues related to wear and looseness of S&W revolvers. Most of these issue can be applied to other revolver makes and some repaired in the same manner.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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R. Dupraz posted this 28 October 2016

Some great stuff!

I have been working with S&W revolvers for nearly 50 yrs. and have the books plus a few more already mentioned. Setting them up for the old PPC course and such as a competitor and police fire arms instructor. But not have seen these processes explained in such detail.

Don't do much of that anymore but wished I had had this info back in the day. Especially from some one who really knows what they are talking about.

Thanks for information and taking the time to post it.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 28 October 2016

thanks for your efforts ; good stuff.

ken

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tturner53 posted this 28 October 2016

Wow! Thanks Dave. This really helps compared to just reading Kuhnhausen's book. I'm dropping the before and after accuracy comparison from this project. Not really necessary or likely to be helpful. My understanding of how these babys work has jumped way ahead in a short time. Thanks again for your help and time. I'm thinking I'll need a new hand, cylinder stop, and a little work on the yoke barrel. At least the lockup seems a-ok. On the side, I'm hearing S&W will still take these old war horses in for a factory service. Nice to know just in case.  EDIT; And probably a new cylinder pin. Got a tiny bit of that side to side cylinder wobble on the back end. Next year I think I'll shoot one of these old girls in the CBA's postal match.

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M3 Mitch posted this 01 November 2016

tturner53 wrote: Wow! Thanks Dave. This really helps compared to just reading Kuhnhausen's book. I'm dropping the before and after accuracy comparison from this project. Not really necessary or likely to be helpful. My understanding of how these babys work has jumped way ahead in a short time. Thanks again for your help and time. I'm thinking I'll need a new hand, cylinder stop, and a little work on the yoke barrel. At least the lockup seems a-ok. On the side, I'm hearing S&W will still take these old war horses in for a factory service. Nice to know just in case.  EDIT; And probably a new cylinder pin. Got a tiny bit of that side to side cylinder wobble on the back end. Next year I think I'll shoot one of these old girls in the CBA's postal match. Well, unless the gun is spitting/shaving lead, it might be at least interesting to shoot a few groups as-is, then a few after tightening up. 

Could make a decent FS article. 

You might want to check the cylinder throats for uniformity, and get them honed to match the biggest one, while you have things apart.  Maybe just using a bullet that fits/shoots well now, just to check that it has the same fit in all 6 holes.

Let me say thanks as well to you, Dave, I certainly learned something reading your posts!

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tturner53 posted this 01 November 2016

OK. Why not? I'll shoot some paper as is for starters. Dave has told me not to expect a big change in accuracy based on our conversation and what I told him about my old Smiths. I've had them for a long time. The idea was to learn how to work on them. This project is about 25 years overdue! Procrastinate much? Now to select a test load.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 01 November 2016

hey tt:: somebody told me that if you are smart enough to spell * kuhnhausen * you could probably fix the dang gun anyway ...

ken

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David Reiss posted this 02 November 2016

Jerry's was a superb gunsmith & his books are good, actually the best on the market, covering a lot of techniques, but I can teach you things not in his books, only learned at the S&W, Colt & Ruger factories. Some of my techniques & tricks were also learned from the firing of over 25,000 rounds a year during my 33 year career and literally working on more than 50,000 (a conservative estimate) revolvers & semi-autos used in law enforcement during that span. http://www.castbulletassoc.org/images/emoticons/fire.gif

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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R. Dupraz posted this 02 November 2016

Exactly

Only so much can be learned from books.

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tturner53 posted this 03 November 2016

I think we have struck gold here boys. I believe Dave is the new official CBA S&W revolver guy. I feel lucky to have his help. I must admit I am tempted by some shortcuts but now don't want to let Dave down! He is determined to 'do it right' so as to avoid problems down the road. Like having a shim come apart and locking the gun up, for instance. My 'Victory' model looks like hell but shoots pretty good. I went to the range yesterday for a quickie. Shot a 10 shot group with each gun at 25 yds. from sandbags. The 'Victory' held about 3 1/2” and the 6” 1905 stayed in 4” with most closer than that. The load was randomly selected from my stash as one that has shot well in about everything I have. My buddy, Wineman, has agreed to post a couple pictures here for me on the condition I learn how to do it myself in the future. I admit I am a stoneage man, really good with an axe or club.

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