SON OF 223 ACCURACY

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Last Post 28 April 2016

CBA Member

joeb33050 posted this 23 April 2016

Rifle apart, everything cleaned, scopes = 2 X T36 checked, all together, Horn 55 gr V MAX, 25 Varget, 1.0, 1.05, 1.3 (5/100 yd) AVG 1.12"(Stevens 200 223 bbl, “F4")

Bought NOE nose size rig, just barely chamfered .220” nose-size die, sized noses. 225646M, 9.5 IMR4227, 4/20/16, 4 groups AVG = 1.294".

4/23/16 same everything, 5 groups averaged 1.988"

When the 223 (rarely) shoots well, next try is much poorer. This is the story of 223 over 3# years and ~ 4000 cast bullets and ~ 6 barrels. Inconsistency.

The 22-250 Striker and rifles LOVE 8/SR4756, 225646M.

Today, 4/23/16, Striker PISTOL, 6/Titegroup, 225415, 5/100 yards 1.425, 1.25, 1.35, 1.375, 1.35, 1.25 Avg = 1.500". And 22-250s don't much like this bullet or powder.

The 22-250 shoots better than the 223; 3 22-250 barrels shoot accurately-- no 223 barrel shoots consistently accurately.

Is there anyone out there who can consistently shoot cast bullets < 1.5” average in a Savage rifle or pistol?

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CBA Member

mtngun posted this 28 April 2016

there is no hook, it's merely a marketing ploy. Correct. Marketing:

checkzpsf65227c9.jpg&rdquo">http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr235/mountainmolds/h45checkzpsf65227c9.jpg” />

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Standard Member

Hamish posted this 28 April 2016

Paul Pollard wrote: OU812 wrote: Hornaday gas checks were block sanded even length then flared. I like Hornaday's because their bases are flatter...easier to glue and rest flat while sanding.

...Do you sand the gas checks because they are not the same height all the way around? What is the height after sanding?

Is the crimp “hook” still there?

Thanks. Paul, there is no hook, it's merely a marketing ploy.

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OU812 posted this 28 April 2016

Paul Pollard wrote: OU812 wrote: Hornaday gas checks were block sanded even length then flared. I like Hornaday's because their bases are flatter...easier to glue and rest flat while sanding.

...Do you sand the gas checks because they are not the same height all the way around? What is the height after sanding?

Is the crimp “hook” still there?

Thanks.

The inside length of Hornaday gas check skirt is an uneven .040-.042 long, after sanding it is an even .040 long. So shank on bullet must be about .043 long...I have cut shank shorter, but gas check skirt bottoms out on first band and does not seat flush with base.

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Standard Member

OU812 posted this 28 April 2016

frnkeore wrote: For the velocitys that your shooting (6-7 gr TG), wouldn't be much easier on you to mill the top of the mold .040 and then ream the GC .226 (to cast .225) rather than do all the stuff that your doing.

We shoot PB bullets (ASSRA/ISSA) to 1680 fps, with ~1.25” 10 shot groups @ 200 yd, using 20/1.

Frank Frank, I will be having the top of mold milled off .033 and may have two of the cavities modified for plain base.

...

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CBA Member

Paul Pollard posted this 28 April 2016

OU812 wrote: Hornaday gas checks were block sanded even length then flared. I like Hornaday's because their bases are flatter...easier to glue and rest flat while sanding.

...Do you sand the gas checks because they are not the same height all the way around? What is the height after sanding?

Is the crimp “hook” still there?

Thanks.

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CBA Member

frnkeore posted this 28 April 2016

For the velocitys that your shooting (6-7 gr TG), wouldn't be much easier on you to mill the top of the mold .040 and then ream the GC .226 (to cast .225) rather than do all the stuff that your doing.

We shoot PB bullets (ASSRA/ISSA) to 1680 fps, with ~1.25” 10 shot groups @ 200 yd, using 20/1.

Frank

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OU812 posted this 28 April 2016

Hornaday gas checks were block sanded even length then flared. I like Hornaday's because their bases are flatter...easier to glue and rest flat while sanding.

...

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Standard Member

OU812 posted this 28 April 2016

Before or after trimming? Before .912, after .882 Bullet required shortening to .882 shoot in my rifle. Gas check almost butts up to first band. Gas check seated and bullet sized nose first thru my RCBS Lubamatic. Sizing bore ride section is unnecessary with softer 1-20 alloy...although a more snug fit in throat would help.

Bullets were sized .225, lubed with LBT soft, Winchester primer Tite Group powder Forester inline seater (allows .225 diameter bullets)

BTW...I learned that rotary tumbling cases in stainless media will surface harden cases prematurely.

...

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CBA Member

joeb33050 posted this 27 April 2016

OU812 wrote: John Alexander wrote: OU812, I am amazed that you are getting 75 grain pointed bullets to shoot in a 12” twist (post #3). I will be interested in what you find with the 80 grainers. John

John, I could not get the 80 grain versions to shoot good groups, BUT the trimmed down 75 grain bullets shot verygood. The 20/1 alloy seemed to shoot best. The HI-TEK coating did well also. I used 6.0 and 7.0 grains of TiteGroup powder.

Again...using a 1-12 twist 223 Remington 700 VS. I will get this bullet mould trimmed down .035-.040 to shorten gas check shank.

The 80 grain bullets shot a wide shotgun pattern. Target pictured is using shortened 75 grain bullets @100 yards. Smallest group measures .700"using softer 20-1 alloy (10 bhn), largest 1.30” using harder Birdshot alloy (12-13 bhn). How long is the bullet?

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Standard Member

OU812 posted this 27 April 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: ou812...

just for trivia sake ... was the barrel breech counterbore too small ... or was it because thru tolerance the barrel was not perfectly lined up with the bolt race ..including cant from sear pressure on the rear of the bolt ...

oh, would the bolt nose go in holding the barrel in your hand ... ??

just adding to my collection ... thanks.

ken

don't feel bad... my 40X came from rem. custom shop screwed up ...” sometimes ya just gotta go with the flow ” ...

Ken' The counter bore hole was too small...smaller than my bolt face diameter. Bolt nose would not go into barrel in hand.

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Standard Member

OU812 posted this 27 April 2016

John Alexander wrote: OU812, I am amazed that you are getting 75 grain pointed bullets to shoot in a 12” twist (post #3). I will be interested in what you find with the 80 grainers. John

Again...using a 1-12 twist 223 Remington 700 VS. I will get this bullet mould trimmed down .030 to shorten gas check shank.

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CBA Member

mtngun posted this 27 April 2016

I normalized (divided by the mean and multiplied by 100%) the standard deviation data in your table:

223 F4 -- 22% standard deviation 223 J1 -- 30% 22-250 M11 -- 19% 22-250 M110 -- 32% 22-250 Striker -- 40%

Years ago I calculated the standard deviation of the group size for all of my firearms, plus for some benchrest rifle groups that had been published somewhere. If I remember right, most of the loads were about 30% standard deviation. The benchrest rifle groups had just as much % standard deviation my Daisy pellet rifle groups.

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CBA Member

mtngun posted this 27 April 2016

Why does 22-250 shoot more accurately than 223?Twist? To test that hypothesis, try rechambering one of the 223 barrels to 22-250. Why does 223 shoot with more group size variation than 22-250?Your table suggests otherwise.

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CBA Member

joeb33050 posted this 27 April 2016

Rather than a complaint, a set of questions. The table show cast bullet 5 shot 100 yard mostly 5 group group averages and standard deviations. All the barrels are Savage, 22” or less, light sporter. Why does 22-250 shoot more accurately than 223? Do bigger cases shoot more accurately than smaller? Why won't 223 shoot accurately? Why does 223 shoot with more group size variation than 22-250? Why does a Striker Pistol, 22-250, shoot more accurately than a 223 rifle? BARREL AVG STDEV 223 F4 2.282 0.493 223 JI 2.216 0.672 22-250 M11 1.783 0.331 22-250 M110 1.917 0.617 22-250 STRIKER 2.078 0.840

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Rather than a complaint.doc

CBA Member

mtngun posted this 27 April 2016

joeb33050 wrote: I don't see buying a custom = non-savage-$50 barrel at this point. With 225646M, 8/SR4756, 22-250---the Striker pistol averaged 1.415” for 23 groups of 5. The average for 125 groups of 5, all powders and bullets and experiments is 1.823. I think I can keep the Striker around or under 1.5", and either of 2 22” sporter barrels around or under 1.25". All 22-250. Will a custom barrel allow me to shoot smaller groups? We all vote yes. But what is the point? Why do it? I'm asking here, I'll buy a barrel if there's a reason/experiment. Joe, if your goal is to see what can be done with economy priced production rifles, there is nothing wrong with that.

But if you are going to complain about poor accuracy with the Savage 223, or 22cf in general, naturally some of us may suggest better barrels and slower twists.

I appreciate you sharing your results. :cool: Keep it coming.

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 27 April 2016

OU812, I am amazed that you are getting 75 grain pointed bullets to shoot in a 12” twist (post #3). I will be interested in what you find with the 80 grainers. John

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CBA Member

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 27 April 2016

ou812...

oh, would the bolt nose go in holding the barrel in your hand ... ??

just adding to my collection ... thanks.

ken

don't feel bad... my 40X came from rem. custom shop screwed up ...” sometimes ya just gotta go with the flow ” ...

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Standard Member

OU812 posted this 27 April 2016

John, Thanks for the collet die tip.

Tomorrow I will try several combinations using your 80 grain design bullet. Some of the bullets have the gas check shank trimmed down to a bullet weight of 75 grains. All tested using 1/12 twist Remington.

I received my new Shilen 1/9 twist barrel for another project, but I had to send it back to Shilen for warranty repair. The bolt nose opening at rear of barrel was not machined large enough for bolt nose to enter. I requested it be machined @ .7050 diameter.

...

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 26 April 2016

OU812,

One of the many nice things abut collet dies is as the brass work-hardens as it must even with the mild working of the collet die. You can just screw the die down a tiny amount and get the same neck OD (and ID if you have turned necks) and put off annealing for a hundred reloads or so. This won't work of course if you are mashing the neck down on the mandrel as Lee says you should. Then you have to reduce the mandrel diameter.

John