SON OF 223 ACCURACY

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  • Last Post 28 April 2016
joeb33050 posted this 23 April 2016

Rifle apart, everything cleaned, scopes = 2 X T36 checked, all together, Horn 55 gr V MAX, 25 Varget, 1.0, 1.05, 1.3 (5/100 yd) AVG 1.12"(Stevens 200 223 bbl, “F4")

Bought NOE nose size rig, just barely chamfered .220” nose-size die, sized noses. 225646M, 9.5 IMR4227, 4/20/16, 4 groups AVG = 1.294".

4/23/16 same everything, 5 groups averaged 1.988"

When the 223 (rarely) shoots well, next try is much poorer. This is the story of 223 over 3# years and ~ 4000 cast bullets and ~ 6 barrels. Inconsistency.

The 22-250 Striker and rifles LOVE 8/SR4756, 225646M.

Today, 4/23/16, Striker PISTOL, 6/Titegroup, 225415, 5/100 yards 1.425, 1.25, 1.35, 1.375, 1.35, 1.25 Avg = 1.500". And 22-250s don't much like this bullet or powder.

The 22-250 shoots better than the 223; 3 22-250 barrels shoot accurately-- no 223 barrel shoots consistently accurately.

Is there anyone out there who can consistently shoot cast bullets < 1.5” average in a Savage rifle or pistol?

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mtngun posted this 23 April 2016

Are we comparing apples to apples, velocity-wise?

Are the twists the same?

1.3 - 2.0 MOA is not atypical for a random cast bullet load in a mass-produced barrel, is it?

I have no experience with either cartridge, so I can't weigh in on the subject.   The only thing that jumps out at me is the 223 has a 3 degree, 10 second lead while the 22-250 has a 2 degree lead.   I doubt if that would make much difference, though.

Thanks as always for sharing your REAL DATA, Joe.   :dude:

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OU812 posted this 23 April 2016

I can shoot consistently under 1.5” using the LBT method (longer .2245 freebore), but my rifle is a factory 223 Remington VS.

BTW I am learning that these longer 75 grain bore riders will work in a 1-12” twist barrel. Will try the 80 grain versions and report results soon.

...

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 23 April 2016

just to add to the uncertainty of cast shooting ... i throated one of joes' 223 barrels to 0.2245 x 1/2 degree ... it got worse ....

sigh...

we haven't given up .. well, totally ...

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 24 April 2016

OU812 wrote: I can shoot consistently under 1.5” using the LBT method (longer .2245 freebore), but my rifle is a factory 223 Remington VS.

BTW I am learning that these longer 75 grain bore riders will work in a 1-12” twist barrel. Will try the 80 grain versions and report results soon.

... I would be interested to see a series of about 5 five shot 100 yard groups. I'd like to see the group sizes to see variation, and the target, to see where bullets strike. Maybe there's a clue there to get me out of this inconsistency. Thanks; joe b.

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joeb33050 posted this 24 April 2016

mtngun wrote: Are we comparing apples to apples, velocity-wise? I don't know, but have varied the charges without finding a 223 accuracy velocity with several powders. 22-250, rifle or pistol, shoots accurately with SR4756 or Titegroup. I gave my chronograph away after 20+ years of precise but useless information. Are the twists the same? 223 = 9", 22-250 = 12” I'm thinking of asking Ken to chamber a 223 barrel to 22-250, to see if it then shoots accurately consistently. 1.3 - 2.0 MOA is not atypical for a random cast bullet load in a mass-produced barrel, is it? First, these ain't random loads. Second, all my experience with lotsa Savage barrels is that they shoot jacketed < 1.5” with minimum effort, 308, 25-06, 30-06, 22-250, 243, others. In 308, 5 shot 5 group 100 yard averages with cast bullets, < 1.5” are fairly easy. My heavy barrel 308 would shoot cast around 1.1” on average, with variation from .85” to 1.4". A M10 Savage, 22” $50 308 barrel in a cut down RIFLE to PISTOL stock, 26 group 100 yard average was 1.546. I think that Savage guns and barrels- even the sporter 22” , with minimum load development, will shoot cast consistently into <1.5", 5 shot five group 100 yard averages. Consistently means something like 4 times out of 5. There is variation.    

I have no experience with either cartridge, so I can't weigh in on the subject.   The only thing that jumps out at me is the 223 has a 3 degree, 10 second lead while the 22-250 has a 2 degree lead.   I doubt if that would make much difference, though.

Thanks as always for sharing your REAL DATA, Joe.   :dude:

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John Alexander posted this 24 April 2016

Joe, Of course the most obvious difference is the twist but 9” twist Savages shoot 45 to 52 grain JB very well.  CB may have more defects which would be worse in the faster twist. 

As I have noted earlier, I have slugged 7 Savage 223 barrels. All 7 have had a length in the center where the slug (expanded in either end of the barrel) offered virtually no resistance to pushing it along. These loose areas started 8 to 12 inches from the throat and all ended a couple of inches from the muzzle where there was a definite “choke". The four barrels that were mine, all shot strings of consecutive groups with match grade JB loads that averaged under .8 moa -- great for factory barrels.

Although, with 72 to 85 grain bore riders, I got better accuracy than you have been (at least when everything was working well) I never thought cast bullets (which aren't elastic like JBs)  were doing as well as they should have and went to another brand of rifle.

I doubt that only 223 Savage barrels have this loose spot but haven't had the opportunity of slug any 22-250 barrels or other calibers.  But maybe it is only 9” twist 22 barrels for some reason that I can't guess and not the 14” twist.  I also wish somebody with one of the 30 calibers barrels that shoot so well would slug it and report.

I know this falls in the category of wild speculation but then who would think that Savage would consistently produce barrels with a huge loose area in the middle.

John

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mtngun posted this 24 April 2016

joeb33050 wrote: mtngun wrote: Are the twists the same? 223 = 9", 22-250 = 12” I'm thinking of asking Ken to chamber a 223 barrel to 22-250, to see if it then shoots accurately consistently. 1.3 - 2.0 MOA is not atypical for a random cast bullet load in a mass-produced barrel, is it? First, these ain't random loads. Second, all my experience with lotsa Savage barrels is that they shoot jacketed < 1.5” with minimum effort, 308, 25-06, 30-06, 22-250, 243, others. In 308, 5 shot 5 group 100 yard averages with cast bullets, < 1.5” are fairly easy. My heavy barrel 308 would shoot cast around 1.1” on average, with variation from .85” to 1.4". A M10 Savage, 22” $50 308 barrel in a cut down RIFLE to PISTOL stock, 26 group 100 yard average was 1.546. I think that Savage guns and barrels- even the sporter 22” , with minimum load development, will shoot cast consistently into <1.5", 5 shot five group 100 yard averages. Consistently means something like 4 times out of 5. There is variation.     In that case twist is definitely a red flag.     Harold Vaughn warned you.   :D  :D  :D

308's typically have 12” twist, don't they? 

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joeb33050 posted this 24 April 2016

mtngun wrote: joeb33050 wrote: mtngun wrote: Are the twists the same? 223 = 9", 22-250 = 12” I'm thinking of asking Ken to chamber a 223 barrel to 22-250, to see if it then shoots accurately consistently. 1.3 - 2.0 MOA is not atypical for a random cast bullet load in a mass-produced barrel, is it? First, these ain't random loads. Second, all my experience with lotsa Savage barrels is that they shoot jacketed < 1.5” with minimum effort, 308, 25-06, 30-06, 22-250, 243, others. In 308, 5 shot 5 group 100 yard averages with cast bullets, < 1.5” are fairly easy. My heavy barrel 308 would shoot cast around 1.1” on average, with variation from .85” to 1.4". A M10 Savage, 22” $50 308 barrel in a cut down RIFLE to PISTOL stock, 26 group 100 yard average was 1.546. I think that Savage guns and barrels- even the sporter 22” , with minimum load development, will shoot cast consistently into <1.5", 5 shot five group 100 yard averages. Consistently means something like 4 times out of 5. There is variation.     In that case twist is definitely a red flag.

Please explain. What flag, what gun?

   Harold Vaughn warned you.   :D  :D  :D

I read Harold's book 3 times, not impressed-what's that 270 business?

308's typically have 12” twist, don't they?

Savage 308s seem to have 10” twist. See their catalog online. I'll check some barrels later. The 22-250 12” twist won't stabilize the 80 gr NOE, and is marginal with the 225646M at .850 long. Stablized/accurate at 8/SR4756; won't stay on the paper at 5/Unique. It's tipping, but Loring Hall always said that many accurate loads have bullet tipping.

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mtngun posted this 24 April 2016

I read Harold's book 3 times, not impressedWhat/who does impress you?     If you are consistently getting under 2MOA with cast bullets in a not-so-great Savage barrel with 9” twist, I'm not seeing what all the fuss is about?    We'd all like better accuracy, but that's what custom barrels are for, and even then some barrels will be better than others.

Are you sticking with factory barrels in order to compete in a production class, or are you just being cheap?  :D

Some people believe in magic cartridges that are inherently more accurate than others, but I'm skeptical, at least for cast bullets.     

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joeb33050 posted this 24 April 2016

I have 4 Savage 308 barrels

M10 26” HV M11 22” sporter M10 20” ?? Striker 14"   The twist on all is 10"

joe b.

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joeb33050 posted this 24 April 2016

mtngun wrote: I read Harold's book 3 times, not impressedWhat/who does impress you?Jim Feren, Steve Earle, Marlin Bassett, Dave Stahl, Tony Boyer, Ned Roberts, Jim McDermott, Jim Borton, Charlie Dell, Pres Campbell, Gerry Ventura, Dale Reynolds, Jim Luke, Loring Hall, Bev Pinney, John Louis, Barry Darr, Bill Ruger, Douglas, Shilen, Hart, Hart, McMillan, Pac Nor, Lilja, Kreiger”¦ People who do the work, some of whom write the results down.

   If you are consistently getting under 2MOA with cast bullets in a not-so-great Savage barrel with 9” twist, I'm not seeing what all the fuss is about?

I wrote a piece explaining how to get a rifle to shoot CBs < 2” 100 yards, for the beginner. (308) Another piece about how to get < 1.5” after the <2” was met. I'd like to be able to say that it's possible/easy with 22cf, but the 223 has eluded me for years.

   We'd all like better accuracy, but that's what custom barrels are for, and even then some barrels will be better than others.

I'd like to succeed with a factory barrel, as the beginner would use.

Are you sticking with factory barrels in order to compete in a production class, or are you just being cheap?  :D

I'm not going to compete, I can buy  a Shilen barrel for ~ $279 today, but for what? To become one of the meteorologists? To buy a $750 bench rest?  To buy a $1200 scope? To wait years for the gunwizard to chamber and install the barrel? I'm interested in what the normal guy can shoot cast bullets in, accurately, today. Custom Barrels? Sure. The recipe starts with “Get $4000..."

Some people believe in magic cartridges that are inherently more accurate than others, but I'm skeptical, at least for cast bullets.  We talked to Dr. Palmisano for an afternoon at Wapwallopen; he could convince you. ?30BR?, ?6mm PPC? ?32 Miller Short?

Cheer up, this is supposed to be fun! joe b.

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mtngun posted this 24 April 2016

I read Tony Boyer's book and agree with just about everything he says.   He advocates using a slow twist.  :)

The logic behind the PPC, as I understand it, is more efficient & more consistent powder burn with a small short case & fast burning powders -- but at 60 - 70 ksi! -- and less thrust on the action thanks to the smaller diameter case.   Neither of which normally applies to our cast bullet loads.

There's nothing wrong with self-imposed limits.   You limit yourself to affordable mass-produced guns, I limit myself to affordable custom barrels & homemade reamers.     I want the gun to be good enough that I'm testing the cast bullet, not testing the gun, but it doesn't need to be the ultimate benchrest rifle to do that.  

I got frustrated with the limits of factory barrels and SAAMI chambers.  :(   

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OU812 posted this 24 April 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: just to add to the uncertainty of cast shooting ... i throated one of joes' 223 barrels to 0.2245 x 1/2 degree ... it got worse ....

sigh...

we haven't given up .. well, totally ...

kenAGAIN, AGAIN, AGAIN

How deep is the throat cut? Mine is cut about .400 deep so bullets are seated long and case neck is gripping just the base of bullet. Bullet is a snug fit inside throat

Annealing the 223 cases helps load more concentric rounds. Good consistent casting techniques and a “well designed bullet” is important.

I am currently trying out the 80 grain bore ride bullet in a 1-12 twist barrel. I can send him some LBT bullets to test...quicker pistol and shotgun powders seem to work best along with less LBT lube. Send PM

LBT bullet.....AGAIN

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mtngun posted this 24 April 2016

OU812 wrote: Mine is cut about .400 deep so bullets are seated long and case neck is gripping just the base of bullet.  You probably mentioned this already in some other post, but what is the leade angle of your rethroated Remington?

a “well designed bullet” is important.  But there is little agreement on what a “well designed bullet” is.  :D  :D  :D

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 25 April 2016

ou812;

i deepened the 223 throat so that his oa length increased about 0.15 ...it was a test step to see what that would do ... we had hoped it would shoot a little better .. that it seems to shoot worse is a ” hmmmmm .. ” moment.

one thing that i noticed is that his 636 lyman bullet has a very blunt round nose and the bullet is engraved only about 0.05 inch ...even with the 1/2 degree throat taper .... which if everything were matched optimally would give 0.3 engraving ..

so, next is 1) burnout ... to heck with it ... the fun has gone ......... or 2) in for a penny, in for a pound ... and fit the bullet to the throat ... would swaging the bullet do that ??

if we put a factory remmy or sako barrel on a savage are we still learning anything ?? or do we take a 8 moa savage and adjust it until we get <3 moa.

in trying times such as these it is easy to forget the original goal:: 

1) to show that all savage 223 barrels are bad  ? 2) ? all 223 factory barrels are bad 3) all 223 won't shoot cast ( except john a's ) ... 4)we can adjust a factory savage 223 barrel to shoot better ...with heroic measures maybe ...

ken

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mtngun posted this 25 April 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: in trying times such as these it is easy to forget the original goal:: 

1) to show that all savage 223 barrels are bad  ? 2) ? all 223 factory barrels are bad 3) all 223 won't shoot cast ( except john a's ) ... 4)we can adjust a factory savage 223 barrel to shoot better ...with heroic measures maybe ...

ken If the goal is to compare 223 to 22-250 in a factory Savage barrel, I suggest that after doing baseline tests with a Savage 223 barrel (which Joe has already done) then rechamber that barrel to SAAMI 22-250.    That would give you an apples-to-apples comparison of the two cartridges in the same barrel.

If the goal is to see what 22cf cast bullets can do in an affordable rifle without custom gunsmithing, http://www.x-caliber.net/savage-pre-fit>X-caliber offers Savage pre-fit barrels that are affordable and good quality.   You can specify any twist between 6” and 16".   They offer the 223 Wylde chamber, too, which has a snugger freebore (not sure if that would be good or bad for cast?).   I was impressed with the quality of the X-caliber 22cf blank that I acquired for my switchbarrel project.   

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Larry Gibson posted this 25 April 2016

Some Savage target .308Ws have 12” twist barrels and the Palma has a 13” twist. A 10” twists appears to be the current standard for Savage sporter .308Ws.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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joeb33050 posted this 25 April 2016

223, 225415, 9.5 IMR4227, UNSIZED, LLA, 1.5, 3.55, 2.2, 3.65, 2.85, AVG 2.75” 223, 225646M, 9.5/IMR4227, NOSE 3 BANDS SIZED, LLA, 2.15, 1.85, 3.9, .975, 1.65 AVG 2.105"

22-250, STRIKER, 225646M, 8/SR4756, UNSIZED, LLA, 1.25", 1.1, .85, AVG 1.067"

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frnkeore posted this 25 April 2016

Joe, Almost all of these guys, shoot BSed. I think that might be a big hint.

Jim Feren, Steve Earle, Marlin Bassett, Dave Stahl, Tony Boyer, Ned Roberts, Jim McDermott, Jim Borton, Charlie Dell, Pres Campbell, Gerry Ventura, Dale Reynolds, Jim Luke, Loring Hall, Bev Pinney, John Louis, Barry Darr, Bill Ruger, Douglas, Shilen, Hart, Hart, McMillan, Pac Nor, Lilja, Kreiger”¦ People who do the work, some of whom write the results down.

AND you forgot to add my name in there :(:(:(/images/emoticons/134.gif

Frank

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frnkeore posted this 25 April 2016

I don't know if it will help you but, I picked up 7 ASSRA points, this weekend by sizing my BSed seated 22RF bullets from .225 to .223 in a .222 barrel. 22's have less area than say 30 cal and you displace much more lead in getting them fully engraved. The circumference of a .308 barrel is .9676, while the a .224 barrel is .7037, almost 25% less. Frank

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mtngun posted this 25 April 2016

Re: rechambering Joe's Savage 223 to 22-250.   If Ken doesn't want to do it, I'll do it if you supply the reamer & headspace gage.   And worst case, those can be rented.   

It might be an interesting experiment.

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billglaze posted this 26 April 2016

X-Caliber seems to be a bit bashful about their location. Either that, or I didn't deserve al in the right combination on their web page.

Where are they located? Anybody know?

Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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billglaze posted this 26 April 2016

BTW:  I' not really illiterate--I just tend to get in a hurry and forget to check if the program has second-guessed my word choice,  sorry. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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mtngun posted this 26 April 2016

X-Caliber is located in Kalispell, Montana.   

Sometimes you can get a better price if you call them.   They sold me a lapped stainless blank for $140 to my door last fall, after I asked for a price by email.   Maybe I just got lucky but it looks very nice in the borecam, prettier than the non-lapped Shilens.   Dimensions are spot on.      Haven't shot it yet, but hopefully soon ....

Prices have gone up some since then, I suspect they'll go up some more once their brand is better known.

Joe is old school so he'll prefer to stick with well known brands, but I thought I'd throw it out anyway.   

Borecam of my X-Caliber 22cf barrel. 

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joeb33050 posted this 26 April 2016

mtngun wrote: X-Caliber is located in Kalispell, Montana.   

Sometimes you can get a better price if you call them.   They sold me a lapped stainless blank for $140 to my door last fall, after I asked for a price by email.   Maybe I just got lucky but it looks very nice in the borecam, prettier than the non-lapped Shilens.   Dimensions are spot on.      Haven't shot it yet, but hopefully soon ....

Prices have gone up some since then, I suspect they'll go up some more once their brand is better known.

Joe is old school so he'll prefer to stick with well known brands, but I thought I'd throw it out anyway.   

Borecam of my X-Caliber 22cf barrel. 

Back to the 223. I've been using 100 of 250 bought-new  FC14 cases. I brush necks and decap at the range, to slow down. The fired cases refuse the Lee decapping rod, at .2215". The SAAMI max ctg/min chamber neck diameter is .253". Fired case neck dia. is .247"/.248". On a .222” mandrel, neck dia is .244", neck thick = .011" Bullet dia. is .2265"/.227” max. With bullet in case, neck dia. = .249"/.250". There should be no interference. I've assumed that the light charges don't blow the case neck out-but the Lee decapping rod doesn't go in fired 223 case necks, and it does go in fired 22-250 case necks. So, yesterday I turned a set of 54 case necks to .239"/.240” on a .222” mandrel, about .002” off the thickness, and annealed them. I'll load and shoot them maybe tomorrow. I'm grasping at straws here.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 26 April 2016

for cast i like the expander button to be the dia. of the bullet before seating.

i thought the sample dummy bullets you sent me were less than 0.226... for the 223 varmint barrel rethroated .

also, don't trust paper saami specs. better to do a chamber/throat lead slug upset .

ken

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John Alexander posted this 26 April 2016

Joe, FWIW my case necks always expand to the approximate diameter of chamber neck .253 in the case of my 223 Tikka.  This is for Remington cases that have been reloaded 40+ times and never annealed and powder charges as low as 4.5 TiteGroup or 700X. John

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John Alexander posted this 26 April 2016

Frank said: Joe,Almost all of these guys, shoot BSed. I think that might be a big hint.

i assume that BSed means breech seated in this case rather than the usual meaning -- or maybe both? John

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John Alexander posted this 26 April 2016

For those interested in CBA competition we have two classes limited to production guns (Production and Hunting Rifle.)  No replacement parts allowed. Our military classes also don't allow after market parts. This is to keep entrance costs for part of our competitive program low to encourage participation. For those of us interested in the challenge of making a factory stock rifle shoot well.  Joe's efforts are of interest.

Production and Hunting Rifle are also the two best classes for competing with a 22 because the lower weight limits and round forends are where the 22's advantage of lower recoil and twist are most useful to offset the advantages of larger calibers.

  John

 

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OU812 posted this 26 April 2016

John Alexander wrote: Joe, FWIW my case necks always expand to the approximate diameter of chamber neck .253 in the case of my 223 Tikka.  This is for Remington cases that have been reloaded 40+ times and never annealed and powder charges as low as 4.5 TiteGroup or 700X. John

I just ordered one of the Lee Collet dies to try.

I know that if my Remington cases are not annealed case necks will spring back larger (less neck tension) over time when using Redding neck bushing dies. Annealing just helps prevent that. I need good neck tension to help jam bullet.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 26 April 2016

a question has been created:: why put a better ( barrel ) on a sporter rifle ?

here is how far i have gotten ... further thought might be necessary ::

you need a really good gun to........test bullets you need really good bullets to......test rifles

i think with hunter/production class we are testing rifles ...

ken

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John Alexander posted this 26 April 2016

OU812,

One of the many nice things abut collet dies is as the brass work-hardens as it must even with the mild working of the collet die.  You can just screw the die down a tiny amount and get the same neck OD (and ID if you have turned necks) and put off annealing for a hundred reloads or so.  This won't work of course if you are mashing the neck down on the mandrel as Lee says you should.  Then you have to reduce the mandrel diameter.

John

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OU812 posted this 27 April 2016

John, Thanks for the collet die tip.

Tomorrow I will try several combinations using your 80 grain design bullet. Some of the bullets have the gas check shank trimmed down to a bullet weight of 75 grains. All tested using 1/12 twist Remington.

I received my new Shilen 1/9 twist barrel for another project, but I had to send it back to Shilen for warranty repair. The bolt nose opening at rear of barrel was not machined large enough for bolt nose to enter. I requested it be machined @ .7050 diameter.

...

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 27 April 2016

ou812...

just for trivia sake ... was the barrel breech counterbore too small ... or was it because thru tolerance the barrel was not perfectly lined up with the bolt race ..including cant from sear pressure on the rear of the bolt ...

oh, would the bolt nose go in holding the barrel in your hand ... ??

just adding to my collection ... thanks.

ken

don't feel bad... my 40X came from rem. custom shop screwed up ...” sometimes ya just gotta go with the flow ” ...

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John Alexander posted this 27 April 2016

OU812, I am amazed that you are getting 75 grain pointed bullets to shoot in a 12” twist (post #3). I will be interested in what you find with the 80 grainers. John

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mtngun posted this 27 April 2016

joeb33050 wrote: I don't see buying a custom = non-savage-$50 barrel at this point. With 225646M, 8/SR4756, 22-250---the Striker pistol averaged 1.415” for 23 groups of 5. The average for 125 groups of 5, all powders and bullets and experiments is 1.823. I think I can keep the Striker around or under 1.5", and either of 2 22” sporter barrels around or under 1.25". All 22-250. Will a custom barrel allow me to shoot smaller groups? We all vote yes. But what is the point? Why do it? I'm asking here, I'll buy a barrel if there's a reason/experiment. Joe, if your goal is to see what can be done with economy priced production rifles, there is nothing wrong with that.

But if you are going to complain about poor accuracy with the Savage 223, or 22cf in general, naturally some of us may suggest better barrels and slower twists.  

I appreciate you sharing your results. :cool:   Keep it coming.

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joeb33050 posted this 27 April 2016

Rather than a complaint, a set of questions. The table show cast bullet 5 shot 100 yard mostly 5 group group averages and standard deviations. All the barrels are Savage, 22” or less, light sporter.   Why does 22-250 shoot more accurately than 223? Do bigger cases shoot more accurately than smaller? Why won't 223 shoot accurately? Why does 223 shoot with more group size variation than 22-250? Why does a Striker Pistol, 22-250, shoot more accurately than a 223 rifle?               BARREL AVG STDEV 223 F4 2.282 0.493 223 JI 2.216 0.672 22-250 M11 1.783 0.331 22-250 M110 1.917 0.617 22-250 STRIKER 2.078 0.840  

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mtngun posted this 27 April 2016

  Why does 22-250 shoot more accurately than 223?Twist?   To test that hypothesis, try rechambering one of the 223 barrels to 22-250. Why does 223 shoot with more group size variation than 22-250?Your table suggests otherwise.

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mtngun posted this 27 April 2016

I normalized (divided by the mean and multiplied by 100%) the standard deviation data in your table:

223 F4 -- 22% standard deviation 223 J1 -- 30% 22-250 M11 -- 19% 22-250 M110 -- 32% 22-250 Striker -- 40%

Years ago I calculated the standard deviation of the group size for all of my firearms, plus for some benchrest rifle groups that had been published somewhere.   If I remember right, most of the loads were about 30% standard deviation.   The benchrest rifle groups had just as much % standard deviation my Daisy pellet rifle groups.   

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OU812 posted this 27 April 2016

John Alexander wrote: OU812, I am amazed that you are getting 75 grain pointed bullets to shoot in a 12” twist (post #3). I will be interested in what you find with the 80 grainers. John

John, I could not get the 80 grain versions to shoot good groups, BUT the trimmed down 75 grain bullets shot verygood. The 20/1 alloy seemed to shoot best. The HI-TEK coating did well also. I used 6.0 and 7.0 grains of TiteGroup powder.

Again...using a 1-12 twist 223 Remington 700 VS. I will get this bullet mould trimmed down .030 to shorten gas check shank.

The 80 grain bullets shot a wide shotgun pattern. Target pictured is using shortened 75 grain bullets @100 yards. Smallest group measures .700"using softer 20-1 alloy (10 bhn), largest 1.30” using harder Birdshot alloy (12-13 bhn).

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OU812 posted this 27 April 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: ou812...

just for trivia sake ... was the barrel breech counterbore too small ... or was it because thru tolerance the barrel was not perfectly lined up with the bolt race ..including cant from sear pressure on the rear of the bolt ...

oh, would the bolt nose go in holding the barrel in your hand ... ??

just adding to my collection ... thanks.

ken

don't feel bad... my 40X came from rem. custom shop screwed up ...” sometimes ya just gotta go with the flow ” ...

Ken' The counter bore hole was too small...smaller than my bolt face diameter. Bolt nose would not go into barrel in hand.

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joeb33050 posted this 27 April 2016

OU812 wrote: John Alexander wrote: OU812, I am amazed that you are getting 75 grain pointed bullets to shoot in a 12” twist (post #3). I will be interested in what you find with the 80 grainers. John

John, I could not get the 80 grain versions to shoot good groups, BUT the trimmed down 75 grain bullets shot verygood. The 20/1 alloy seemed to shoot best. The HI-TEK coating did well also. I used 6.0 and 7.0 grains of TiteGroup powder.

Again...using a 1-12 twist 223 Remington 700 VS. I will get this bullet mould trimmed down .035-.040 to shorten gas check shank.

The 80 grain bullets shot a wide shotgun pattern. Target pictured is using shortened 75 grain bullets @100 yards. Smallest group measures .700"using softer 20-1 alloy (10 bhn), largest 1.30” using harder Birdshot alloy (12-13 bhn). How long is the bullet?

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OU812 posted this 28 April 2016

Before or after trimming? Before .912, after .882 Bullet required shortening to .882 shoot in my rifle. Gas check almost butts up to first band. Gas check seated and bullet sized nose first thru my RCBS Lubamatic. Sizing bore ride section is unnecessary with softer 1-20 alloy...although a more snug fit in throat would help.

Bullets were sized .225, lubed with LBT soft, Winchester primer Tite Group powder Forester inline seater (allows .225 diameter bullets)

BTW...I learned that rotary tumbling cases in stainless media will surface harden cases prematurely.

...

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OU812 posted this 28 April 2016

Hornaday gas checks were block sanded even length then flared. I like Hornaday's because their bases are flatter...easier to glue and rest flat while sanding.

...

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frnkeore posted this 28 April 2016

For the velocitys that your shooting (6-7 gr TG), wouldn't be much easier on you to mill the top of the mold .040 and then ream the GC .226 (to cast .225) rather than do all the stuff that your doing.

We shoot PB bullets (ASSRA/ISSA) to 1680 fps, with ~1.25” 10 shot groups @ 200 yd, using 20/1.

Frank

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Paul Pollard posted this 28 April 2016

OU812 wrote: Hornaday gas checks were block sanded even length then flared. I like Hornaday's because their bases are flatter...easier to glue and rest flat while sanding.

...Do you sand the gas checks because they are not the same height all the way around?   What is the height after sanding? 

Is the crimp “hook” still there?

Thanks. 

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OU812 posted this 28 April 2016

frnkeore wrote: For the velocitys that your shooting (6-7 gr TG), wouldn't be much easier on you to mill the top of the mold .040 and then ream the GC .226 (to cast .225) rather than do all the stuff that your doing.

We shoot PB bullets (ASSRA/ISSA) to 1680 fps, with ~1.25” 10 shot groups @ 200 yd, using 20/1.

Frank Frank, I will be having the top of mold milled off .033 and may have two of the cavities modified for plain base.

...

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OU812 posted this 28 April 2016

Paul Pollard wrote: OU812 wrote: Hornaday gas checks were block sanded even length then flared. I like Hornaday's because their bases are flatter...easier to glue and rest flat while sanding.

...Do you sand the gas checks because they are not the same height all the way around?   What is the height after sanding? 

Is the crimp “hook” still there?

Thanks. 

The inside length of Hornaday gas check skirt is an uneven .040-.042 long, after sanding it is an even .040 long. So shank on bullet must be about .043 long...I have cut shank shorter, but gas check skirt bottoms out on first band and does not seat flush with base.

..

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Hamish posted this 28 April 2016

Paul Pollard wrote: OU812 wrote: Hornaday gas checks were block sanded even length then flared. I like Hornaday's because their bases are flatter...easier to glue and rest flat while sanding.

...Do you sand the gas checks because they are not the same height all the way around?   What is the height after sanding? 

Is the crimp “hook” still there?

Thanks.  Paul,  there is no hook, it's merely a marketing ploy.

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mtngun posted this 28 April 2016

 there is no hook, it's merely a marketing ploy. Correct. Marketing:

checkzpsf65227c9.jpg&rdquo">http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr235/mountainmolds/h45checkzpsf65227c9.jpg&rdquo; />

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