SON OF 223 ACCURACY

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  • Last Post 28 April 2016
joeb33050 posted this 23 April 2016

Rifle apart, everything cleaned, scopes = 2 X T36 checked, all together, Horn 55 gr V MAX, 25 Varget, 1.0, 1.05, 1.3 (5/100 yd) AVG 1.12"(Stevens 200 223 bbl, “F4")

Bought NOE nose size rig, just barely chamfered .220” nose-size die, sized noses. 225646M, 9.5 IMR4227, 4/20/16, 4 groups AVG = 1.294".

4/23/16 same everything, 5 groups averaged 1.988"

When the 223 (rarely) shoots well, next try is much poorer. This is the story of 223 over 3# years and ~ 4000 cast bullets and ~ 6 barrels. Inconsistency.

The 22-250 Striker and rifles LOVE 8/SR4756, 225646M.

Today, 4/23/16, Striker PISTOL, 6/Titegroup, 225415, 5/100 yards 1.425, 1.25, 1.35, 1.375, 1.35, 1.25 Avg = 1.500". And 22-250s don't much like this bullet or powder.

The 22-250 shoots better than the 223; 3 22-250 barrels shoot accurately-- no 223 barrel shoots consistently accurately.

Is there anyone out there who can consistently shoot cast bullets < 1.5” average in a Savage rifle or pistol?

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mtngun posted this 23 April 2016

Are we comparing apples to apples, velocity-wise?

Are the twists the same?

1.3 - 2.0 MOA is not atypical for a random cast bullet load in a mass-produced barrel, is it?

I have no experience with either cartridge, so I can't weigh in on the subject.   The only thing that jumps out at me is the 223 has a 3 degree, 10 second lead while the 22-250 has a 2 degree lead.   I doubt if that would make much difference, though.

Thanks as always for sharing your REAL DATA, Joe.   :dude:

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OU812 posted this 23 April 2016

I can shoot consistently under 1.5” using the LBT method (longer .2245 freebore), but my rifle is a factory 223 Remington VS.

BTW I am learning that these longer 75 grain bore riders will work in a 1-12” twist barrel. Will try the 80 grain versions and report results soon.

...

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 23 April 2016

just to add to the uncertainty of cast shooting ... i throated one of joes' 223 barrels to 0.2245 x 1/2 degree ... it got worse ....

sigh...

we haven't given up .. well, totally ...

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 24 April 2016

OU812 wrote: I can shoot consistently under 1.5” using the LBT method (longer .2245 freebore), but my rifle is a factory 223 Remington VS.

BTW I am learning that these longer 75 grain bore riders will work in a 1-12” twist barrel. Will try the 80 grain versions and report results soon.

... I would be interested to see a series of about 5 five shot 100 yard groups. I'd like to see the group sizes to see variation, and the target, to see where bullets strike. Maybe there's a clue there to get me out of this inconsistency. Thanks; joe b.

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joeb33050 posted this 24 April 2016

mtngun wrote: Are we comparing apples to apples, velocity-wise? I don't know, but have varied the charges without finding a 223 accuracy velocity with several powders. 22-250, rifle or pistol, shoots accurately with SR4756 or Titegroup. I gave my chronograph away after 20+ years of precise but useless information. Are the twists the same? 223 = 9", 22-250 = 12” I'm thinking of asking Ken to chamber a 223 barrel to 22-250, to see if it then shoots accurately consistently. 1.3 - 2.0 MOA is not atypical for a random cast bullet load in a mass-produced barrel, is it? First, these ain't random loads. Second, all my experience with lotsa Savage barrels is that they shoot jacketed < 1.5” with minimum effort, 308, 25-06, 30-06, 22-250, 243, others. In 308, 5 shot 5 group 100 yard averages with cast bullets, < 1.5” are fairly easy. My heavy barrel 308 would shoot cast around 1.1” on average, with variation from .85” to 1.4". A M10 Savage, 22” $50 308 barrel in a cut down RIFLE to PISTOL stock, 26 group 100 yard average was 1.546. I think that Savage guns and barrels- even the sporter 22” , with minimum load development, will shoot cast consistently into <1.5", 5 shot five group 100 yard averages. Consistently means something like 4 times out of 5. There is variation.    

I have no experience with either cartridge, so I can't weigh in on the subject.   The only thing that jumps out at me is the 223 has a 3 degree, 10 second lead while the 22-250 has a 2 degree lead.   I doubt if that would make much difference, though.

Thanks as always for sharing your REAL DATA, Joe.   :dude:

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John Alexander posted this 24 April 2016

Joe, Of course the most obvious difference is the twist but 9” twist Savages shoot 45 to 52 grain JB very well.  CB may have more defects which would be worse in the faster twist. 

As I have noted earlier, I have slugged 7 Savage 223 barrels. All 7 have had a length in the center where the slug (expanded in either end of the barrel) offered virtually no resistance to pushing it along. These loose areas started 8 to 12 inches from the throat and all ended a couple of inches from the muzzle where there was a definite “choke". The four barrels that were mine, all shot strings of consecutive groups with match grade JB loads that averaged under .8 moa -- great for factory barrels.

Although, with 72 to 85 grain bore riders, I got better accuracy than you have been (at least when everything was working well) I never thought cast bullets (which aren't elastic like JBs)  were doing as well as they should have and went to another brand of rifle.

I doubt that only 223 Savage barrels have this loose spot but haven't had the opportunity of slug any 22-250 barrels or other calibers.  But maybe it is only 9” twist 22 barrels for some reason that I can't guess and not the 14” twist.  I also wish somebody with one of the 30 calibers barrels that shoot so well would slug it and report.

I know this falls in the category of wild speculation but then who would think that Savage would consistently produce barrels with a huge loose area in the middle.

John

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mtngun posted this 24 April 2016

joeb33050 wrote: mtngun wrote: Are the twists the same? 223 = 9", 22-250 = 12” I'm thinking of asking Ken to chamber a 223 barrel to 22-250, to see if it then shoots accurately consistently. 1.3 - 2.0 MOA is not atypical for a random cast bullet load in a mass-produced barrel, is it? First, these ain't random loads. Second, all my experience with lotsa Savage barrels is that they shoot jacketed < 1.5” with minimum effort, 308, 25-06, 30-06, 22-250, 243, others. In 308, 5 shot 5 group 100 yard averages with cast bullets, < 1.5” are fairly easy. My heavy barrel 308 would shoot cast around 1.1” on average, with variation from .85” to 1.4". A M10 Savage, 22” $50 308 barrel in a cut down RIFLE to PISTOL stock, 26 group 100 yard average was 1.546. I think that Savage guns and barrels- even the sporter 22” , with minimum load development, will shoot cast consistently into <1.5", 5 shot five group 100 yard averages. Consistently means something like 4 times out of 5. There is variation.     In that case twist is definitely a red flag.     Harold Vaughn warned you.   :D  :D  :D

308's typically have 12” twist, don't they? 

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joeb33050 posted this 24 April 2016

mtngun wrote: joeb33050 wrote: mtngun wrote: Are the twists the same? 223 = 9", 22-250 = 12” I'm thinking of asking Ken to chamber a 223 barrel to 22-250, to see if it then shoots accurately consistently. 1.3 - 2.0 MOA is not atypical for a random cast bullet load in a mass-produced barrel, is it? First, these ain't random loads. Second, all my experience with lotsa Savage barrels is that they shoot jacketed < 1.5” with minimum effort, 308, 25-06, 30-06, 22-250, 243, others. In 308, 5 shot 5 group 100 yard averages with cast bullets, < 1.5” are fairly easy. My heavy barrel 308 would shoot cast around 1.1” on average, with variation from .85” to 1.4". A M10 Savage, 22” $50 308 barrel in a cut down RIFLE to PISTOL stock, 26 group 100 yard average was 1.546. I think that Savage guns and barrels- even the sporter 22” , with minimum load development, will shoot cast consistently into <1.5", 5 shot five group 100 yard averages. Consistently means something like 4 times out of 5. There is variation.     In that case twist is definitely a red flag.

Please explain. What flag, what gun?

   Harold Vaughn warned you.   :D  :D  :D

I read Harold's book 3 times, not impressed-what's that 270 business?

308's typically have 12” twist, don't they?

Savage 308s seem to have 10” twist. See their catalog online. I'll check some barrels later. The 22-250 12” twist won't stabilize the 80 gr NOE, and is marginal with the 225646M at .850 long. Stablized/accurate at 8/SR4756; won't stay on the paper at 5/Unique. It's tipping, but Loring Hall always said that many accurate loads have bullet tipping.

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mtngun posted this 24 April 2016

I read Harold's book 3 times, not impressedWhat/who does impress you?     If you are consistently getting under 2MOA with cast bullets in a not-so-great Savage barrel with 9” twist, I'm not seeing what all the fuss is about?    We'd all like better accuracy, but that's what custom barrels are for, and even then some barrels will be better than others.

Are you sticking with factory barrels in order to compete in a production class, or are you just being cheap?  :D

Some people believe in magic cartridges that are inherently more accurate than others, but I'm skeptical, at least for cast bullets.     

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joeb33050 posted this 24 April 2016

I have 4 Savage 308 barrels

M10 26” HV M11 22” sporter M10 20” ?? Striker 14"   The twist on all is 10"

joe b.

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joeb33050 posted this 24 April 2016

mtngun wrote: I read Harold's book 3 times, not impressedWhat/who does impress you?Jim Feren, Steve Earle, Marlin Bassett, Dave Stahl, Tony Boyer, Ned Roberts, Jim McDermott, Jim Borton, Charlie Dell, Pres Campbell, Gerry Ventura, Dale Reynolds, Jim Luke, Loring Hall, Bev Pinney, John Louis, Barry Darr, Bill Ruger, Douglas, Shilen, Hart, Hart, McMillan, Pac Nor, Lilja, Kreiger”¦ People who do the work, some of whom write the results down.

   If you are consistently getting under 2MOA with cast bullets in a not-so-great Savage barrel with 9” twist, I'm not seeing what all the fuss is about?

I wrote a piece explaining how to get a rifle to shoot CBs < 2” 100 yards, for the beginner. (308) Another piece about how to get < 1.5” after the <2” was met. I'd like to be able to say that it's possible/easy with 22cf, but the 223 has eluded me for years.

   We'd all like better accuracy, but that's what custom barrels are for, and even then some barrels will be better than others.

I'd like to succeed with a factory barrel, as the beginner would use.

Are you sticking with factory barrels in order to compete in a production class, or are you just being cheap?  :D

I'm not going to compete, I can buy  a Shilen barrel for ~ $279 today, but for what? To become one of the meteorologists? To buy a $750 bench rest?  To buy a $1200 scope? To wait years for the gunwizard to chamber and install the barrel? I'm interested in what the normal guy can shoot cast bullets in, accurately, today. Custom Barrels? Sure. The recipe starts with “Get $4000..."

Some people believe in magic cartridges that are inherently more accurate than others, but I'm skeptical, at least for cast bullets.  We talked to Dr. Palmisano for an afternoon at Wapwallopen; he could convince you. ?30BR?, ?6mm PPC? ?32 Miller Short?

Cheer up, this is supposed to be fun! joe b.

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mtngun posted this 24 April 2016

I read Tony Boyer's book and agree with just about everything he says.   He advocates using a slow twist.  :)

The logic behind the PPC, as I understand it, is more efficient & more consistent powder burn with a small short case & fast burning powders -- but at 60 - 70 ksi! -- and less thrust on the action thanks to the smaller diameter case.   Neither of which normally applies to our cast bullet loads.

There's nothing wrong with self-imposed limits.   You limit yourself to affordable mass-produced guns, I limit myself to affordable custom barrels & homemade reamers.     I want the gun to be good enough that I'm testing the cast bullet, not testing the gun, but it doesn't need to be the ultimate benchrest rifle to do that.  

I got frustrated with the limits of factory barrels and SAAMI chambers.  :(   

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OU812 posted this 24 April 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: just to add to the uncertainty of cast shooting ... i throated one of joes' 223 barrels to 0.2245 x 1/2 degree ... it got worse ....

sigh...

we haven't given up .. well, totally ...

kenAGAIN, AGAIN, AGAIN

How deep is the throat cut? Mine is cut about .400 deep so bullets are seated long and case neck is gripping just the base of bullet. Bullet is a snug fit inside throat

Annealing the 223 cases helps load more concentric rounds. Good consistent casting techniques and a “well designed bullet” is important.

I am currently trying out the 80 grain bore ride bullet in a 1-12 twist barrel. I can send him some LBT bullets to test...quicker pistol and shotgun powders seem to work best along with less LBT lube. Send PM

LBT bullet.....AGAIN

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mtngun posted this 24 April 2016

OU812 wrote: Mine is cut about .400 deep so bullets are seated long and case neck is gripping just the base of bullet.  You probably mentioned this already in some other post, but what is the leade angle of your rethroated Remington?

a “well designed bullet” is important.  But there is little agreement on what a “well designed bullet” is.  :D  :D  :D

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 25 April 2016

ou812;

i deepened the 223 throat so that his oa length increased about 0.15 ...it was a test step to see what that would do ... we had hoped it would shoot a little better .. that it seems to shoot worse is a ” hmmmmm .. ” moment.

one thing that i noticed is that his 636 lyman bullet has a very blunt round nose and the bullet is engraved only about 0.05 inch ...even with the 1/2 degree throat taper .... which if everything were matched optimally would give 0.3 engraving ..

so, next is 1) burnout ... to heck with it ... the fun has gone ......... or 2) in for a penny, in for a pound ... and fit the bullet to the throat ... would swaging the bullet do that ??

if we put a factory remmy or sako barrel on a savage are we still learning anything ?? or do we take a 8 moa savage and adjust it until we get <3 moa.

in trying times such as these it is easy to forget the original goal:: 

1) to show that all savage 223 barrels are bad  ? 2) ? all 223 factory barrels are bad 3) all 223 won't shoot cast ( except john a's ) ... 4)we can adjust a factory savage 223 barrel to shoot better ...with heroic measures maybe ...

ken

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mtngun posted this 25 April 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: in trying times such as these it is easy to forget the original goal:: 

1) to show that all savage 223 barrels are bad  ? 2) ? all 223 factory barrels are bad 3) all 223 won't shoot cast ( except john a's ) ... 4)we can adjust a factory savage 223 barrel to shoot better ...with heroic measures maybe ...

ken If the goal is to compare 223 to 22-250 in a factory Savage barrel, I suggest that after doing baseline tests with a Savage 223 barrel (which Joe has already done) then rechamber that barrel to SAAMI 22-250.    That would give you an apples-to-apples comparison of the two cartridges in the same barrel.

If the goal is to see what 22cf cast bullets can do in an affordable rifle without custom gunsmithing, http://www.x-caliber.net/savage-pre-fit>X-caliber offers Savage pre-fit barrels that are affordable and good quality.   You can specify any twist between 6” and 16".   They offer the 223 Wylde chamber, too, which has a snugger freebore (not sure if that would be good or bad for cast?).   I was impressed with the quality of the X-caliber 22cf blank that I acquired for my switchbarrel project.   

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Larry Gibson posted this 25 April 2016

Some Savage target .308Ws have 12” twist barrels and the Palma has a 13” twist. A 10” twists appears to be the current standard for Savage sporter .308Ws.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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joeb33050 posted this 25 April 2016

223, 225415, 9.5 IMR4227, UNSIZED, LLA, 1.5, 3.55, 2.2, 3.65, 2.85, AVG 2.75” 223, 225646M, 9.5/IMR4227, NOSE 3 BANDS SIZED, LLA, 2.15, 1.85, 3.9, .975, 1.65 AVG 2.105"

22-250, STRIKER, 225646M, 8/SR4756, UNSIZED, LLA, 1.25", 1.1, .85, AVG 1.067"

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frnkeore posted this 25 April 2016

Joe, Almost all of these guys, shoot BSed. I think that might be a big hint.

Jim Feren, Steve Earle, Marlin Bassett, Dave Stahl, Tony Boyer, Ned Roberts, Jim McDermott, Jim Borton, Charlie Dell, Pres Campbell, Gerry Ventura, Dale Reynolds, Jim Luke, Loring Hall, Bev Pinney, John Louis, Barry Darr, Bill Ruger, Douglas, Shilen, Hart, Hart, McMillan, Pac Nor, Lilja, Kreiger”¦ People who do the work, some of whom write the results down.

AND you forgot to add my name in there :(:(:(/images/emoticons/134.gif

Frank

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frnkeore posted this 25 April 2016

I don't know if it will help you but, I picked up 7 ASSRA points, this weekend by sizing my BSed seated 22RF bullets from .225 to .223 in a .222 barrel. 22's have less area than say 30 cal and you displace much more lead in getting them fully engraved. The circumference of a .308 barrel is .9676, while the a .224 barrel is .7037, almost 25% less. Frank

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