Military rifle CB shooting

2.2K Views
Last Post 17 November 2015

CBA Member

beltfed posted this 28 October 2015

My question is:

Which of the manufacturers of 03A3s tends to shoot better:

Remington 2 groove

Remington 4 groove

Smith-Corona

I realize this is not necessarily a scientific comparison. Just a general question

for “those who know"

beltfed/arnie

Attached Files

13 Comments

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes

CBA Member

gnoahhh posted this 28 October 2015

In my experience, the internal dimensions and finish of them matters more than how many grooves they have. There's been a bit of ballyhooing of the two groove barrels being sweet for cast bullet shooting, but I could never prove it to my satisfaction. This from an admittedly small sampling of a half dozen or so 03A3s over the last 45 years.

Attached Files

CBA Member

tturner53 posted this 28 October 2015

For a slightly scientific comparison take a look at the CBA website's match results. Barrel specs are given. I have both and can't say one is better.

Attached Files

Standard Member

onondaga posted this 28 October 2015

I agree that barrel condition is more valid for a comparison. My 03A3 was built from old, unused arsenal parts, even the barrel had never been fired at all when I got the rifle. The rifle shoots very well because of it's condition is my opinion. Gary

Attached Files

CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 28 October 2015

Twenty five years ago, back when we thought bore and groove dimensions were important, the two groove would shoot bore riding bullets better. Now with proper bullet fit to the throat, it depends upon the individual barrel. While I have never won a CBA National Match with a two groove barrel, I was second three times with a SC two-groove barrel (yes, they did make them, but only 11-43). As a group, the High Standard made barrel seem to be very nicely finished in the bore. HTH, Ric

Attached Files

CBA Member

Larry Gibson posted this 30 October 2015

Years ago I had access (military SF arms) to several M1903A4s in new condition and several M1903s and M1903A3s. The A4s all had 2 groove barrels as did about half of the A3s. The '03s all had 4 groove barrels. Our goal was to find out how well they did at 100 (reduced NMC), 200, 300and 600 yards with cast bullets (311284, 311299 and 311331). Interest was also in 100 yard increments to as far as 1000 yards for use. This was during the post Viet Nam period when we received no ammunition for training.

We tested the rifles with cast bullet loads developed by me using the common methods (alloys, powders, etc.) of the day ('70s). We found with “accuracy” loads in the 1850 - 1950 fps range (yes I had an Oehler chronograph back then) with both bullets that accuracy was pretty much equal at 100 and 200 yards between the 2 and 4 grove barrels. At 300 yards the accuracy with both bullets began to definitely favor the 4 groove barrels. Beyond 300 yards the 4 groove barrels consistently were more accurate with all 3 cast bullets. Those loads held very good accuracy to 500 yards but were going sub-sonic after that and none did well at 600 yards, at least not as well as they should have given normal group expansion. If the velocity was boosted to 2050 fps accuracy was better at 600 yards but not as good at the closer ranges. Obviously the transition from sonic to sub-sonic was the cause.

Yes I have and have read (numerous times)the Remington test “proving” the 2 groove barrels are/were more accurate but our tests did not demonstrate that with cast bullets or with M72 Match ammunition we acquired (courtesy the Oregon National Guard). The 4 groove barrels proved the more accurate at 300 yards or farther. The main reason for the 2 groove barrels was they could be produced faster and cheaper than 4 groove barrels. Given that fact if the 2 groove barrels were more accurate than 4 groove barrels wouldn't all the match shooters be using them? Wouldn't the military still be using them? If you look at the muzzle end of a 2 groove barrel you can see the elliptical shape the bullet comes out in. I believe that shape does not lend itself to as good a balanced bullet as from a 3, 4, 5 or 6 groove barrel. it is the greater imbalance of the bullet that causes the less accuracy at longer ranges.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

Attached Files

Standard Member

PETE posted this 30 October 2015

LMG,

Interesting read. Thanks!

Pete

Attached Files

CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 31 October 2015

LMG, A very good reply. I don't know anyone who has tested '03's past 300 yards with cast bullets. Lyman's ballistic calculations are way off of the real world results, as bullets slow down much faster than they list them as doing. At 1450 f/s the '284 will just be supersonic at 200 yards, but wind drift is much more than their calculation. It may be from the trans-sonic yawing. I think the big factor for two groove was not only the 15% total time savings in barrel production, but also the wear factor. Two groove will tolerate much more shooting with AP/I or Tracer than four groove. When the Vietnamese RF/PF turned in their 03A3/4's, M2 carbines, and BAR's I got to shoot them quite a bit. They had been using WWII AP for years with low/no maintenance. The 2 grooves would shoot about 9” at 100 meters, but the 4 grooves would only do about 2 feet. The BAR's cone of fire would be about 6 feet wide and 50 feet deep at 200 meters. Ric

Attached Files

CBA Member

beltfed posted this 31 October 2015

Well, folks,

Thanks for your input.

I did end up acquiring the Smith-Corona 03A3 that I had been considering.

Perfect bore, 4 groove S C barrel dated 5-43. Nice metal and Nice solid straight stock(wish it had a C stock).

I now am “de-coppering the bore” prepping for cast bullet trials.

Getting up a “lot” of 100 RP brass to prep for it.

It will be interesting as to how it compares to my 03A1 1941 MC sniper rifle and

Remington 1917 "Enfield” -06

( so much for my “downsizing” attempts...)

beltfed/arnie

Attached Files

CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 31 October 2015

Enjoy your new SC 4 groove. The CBA' s first issue class national match was won with one. Those High Standard made barrels where very nicely button rifled.

Attached Files

CBA Member

fa38 posted this 01 November 2015

Arnie: When you get that load all squared away you will have to come down to the Van Dyne Sportsmen's club CBA Military Matches.

Marty

Attached Files

CBA Member

beltfed posted this 01 November 2015

Marty,

Yes, I will be interested in the Military matches at Van Dyne. Kind of wet my whistle at Merrill's Mil CB match back in July. One match- Mod scope with my 1933 '03A1 Match/Sniper rifle/6XUnertl-- got a 384/400 with load: 311291/22gr I4759

Jeff Heeler is hoping to have more than two Mil CB matches next summer

beltfed/arnie

Attached Files

CBA Member

beltfed posted this 17 November 2015

Well,

On Sat , in between helping people with their deer rifles, I ran a few CB loads thru my issue SC 03A3. One, my favorite '06 cb load , 311291, 9+1 ww/lino/ 0.311, MTL lube/ GC/ Dupont 4227 shot a 100 yds group into sub minute,

I think this might be a keeper.

beltfed/arnie