NOE 225-70 RN Loads

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  • Last Post 24 September 2016
hrafknel posted this 02 September 2015

For a Savage, 9 inch twist, in .223.  Any suggestions for 1500-700 fps using AA 5744, IMR 4227, TightGroup, or Unique?  

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onondaga posted this 02 September 2015

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=134>hrafknel

From the powders you list, Hodgdon Titegroup is likely the only one that is safe to reduce close to that low.

700fps is low enough to stick bullets in the bore. Don't go there. Staying subsonic generally means staying below 975 fps with your extreme spread of velocity readings. It is not likely bullets will lodge in the bore at 975 fps. It is highly likely they will lodge in the bore at 700 fps.

Hodgdon technical is very helpful and will advise you. Personally I shoot .223 with cast no lower than 1160 fps average with Titegroup and a 60 gr cast bullet.

Powder ignition and safety is a primary concern when experimenting and developing subsonic loads. Do not take that lightly. Consult with Hodgdon.

IMR Trailboss is also suitable for the subsonic application with your bullet. Again 975 fps is a reasonable minimum to target but don't go lower. Work down with a chronograph from a higher load level or don't even try. It is too dangerous to stick a bullet in the bore by starting low.

Gary

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hrafknel posted this 03 September 2015

OOPS, that 1500-700 was a typo.  Desired velocity desired is 1500-1700 fps.

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John Alexander posted this 04 September 2015

If bullets from your mold fit the rifle or can be made to fit, any of the powders you listed will work OK.  You should find it easy to get good accuracy in the velocity range you mention. I have shot an almost identical NEI bullet and now NOE 22570 RN for thirty years with good results. Like Gary, my current favorite is TiteGroup.  About 6 or 7 grains will get you into the velocity range mentioned but I have used all the others you list as well. Please let us know how it goes. John

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hrafknel posted this 09 September 2015

Went to the range today.  Temp was U60 to U70.  Wind was nil to slight.  Wind flags not present.  Rifle was borrowed Savage Model 12, stainless barret, Accu-triger, plastic stock.  Scope was Tasco 6-24 with mil-dots.  Fired 5 shot groups (although all 5 did not always show up) at 100 yards using concrete bench.  Bullets were visually inspected and defected bases and bands were cause for rejection.  Slight “splash” on the front part were NOT rejected.  Results as follows: PMC brass, CCI 450 Primer,  AA 5744 9.0 grs 1.103 group, 4 in .508": 1.770 group, 3 in .853"; 3.383 group, 3 in .786"; 6.550 group, 3 in .389"; 10.0 grs. 1.318 group, 3 in .456"; 1.324 group, 3 in .432"; 1.529 group, 4 in .734"; 2.88 group, 3 in .602" PPU brass,   CCI 450 Primer, RL 7 powder 10.0 grs .993 group, 3 in .518"; 1.56 group (4 shots), 3 in .447";1.56 group, 3 in .447";1.572 group (4 shots); 4.149 group, 4 in .693"; 11.0 grs 1.168 group (4 shots), 3 in .741"; 1.344 group, 3 in .606"; 1.467 group, 3 in .571"; 10 & 11 grs IMR 4227 was disappointment. TightGroup next week.  

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hrafknel posted this 16 September 2015

Results using TightGroup: PPU brass, CCI 450 primer, 5 shot group, 100 yards: 6.0 grains; .035", 3 in .336"; .0929", 3 in .166"; 1.375", 3 in .437"; 1.665"; 1.808", 3 in 1.133" 7.0 grains; 1.865", 3.213", 3.4", 4.475" Casting is becoming easier. Next is 6.0 VS 6.5. Love being able to get 1000 loads from a pound of powder.

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onondaga posted this 16 September 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=134>hrafknel

WARNING !!!

BE CAREFUL, you mention reduced loads with Alliant Reloader 7.  Rel. 7 should not be reduced below Alliant minimum. I personally have had dangerous and frightening results reducing Rel. 7 and have had discussions about this with Ben Amonet, Ballistic Scientist at Alliant.  Rel.7 is prone to extreme muzzle flashing and high velocity detonation from the ignition of dispersed particles in a muzzle flash. This has happened to me personally with reduced Rel. 7 loads. A 30 foot fireball that knocked the range safety officer off his stool from the blast of my load prompted me to call Ben Amonet about reduced loads with Rel. 7.

Gary

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 16 September 2015

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=134>hrafknel

... and have had discussions about this with Ben Amonet, Ballistic Scientist at Alliant.  ...

Gary For what it's worth, I consider Ben Amonette a good friend and trust his advice. He's a former student of mine (AutoCAD), an excellent gunsmith (has done precision work for me), shot on the Olympic Pistol Team, and is a man of integrity.

Believe what he says!

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gpidaho posted this 16 September 2015

As another TiteGroup reference here's some loads I chronographed last week. 223Rem 1in9 22” 55gr. Lee Bator gas checked and powder coated. 5.5gr. Av 1927 Sd 19 6gr. Av 1999 Sd 10 6.5gr Av 2119 Sd 10 7gr. Av 2261 Sd 17 The 7gr. load was the best on target Gp

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John Alexander posted this 16 September 2015

hrafknel wrote: Went to the range today.  Bullets were visually inspected and defected bases and bands were cause for rejection.  Slight “splash” on the front part were NOT rejected.  

Glad to see that you are getting some excellent results. That is what I would expect from that bullet in any decent rifle in which that the bullet fits.  That design is about the easiest 22 bullet to get good accuracy of any I have tried in any twist that will stabilize it (1 in 10” or steeper).

I am amazed that you got a few groups of 3 to 6".  In over 10,000 shots with that bullet or its NEI clone I have never seen groups that big and don't weigh bullets or powder or sort out small defects.  Were you getting leading? John

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hrafknel posted this 19 September 2015

Looked closely at my previous castings.  Some had a “frosty” spot in front of the front band.  I figured that was a “too hot” mold situation.  Measured them, .215-.219".  At 90 degress to that point, the measurement was .220".  I figured that was what caused the flyers.  Live and learn.

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John Alexander posted this 21 September 2015

hrafknel wrote: Looked closely at my previous castings.  Some had a “frosty” spot in front of the front band.  I figured that was a “too hot” mold situation.  Measured them, .215-.219".  At 90 degress to that point, the measurement was .220".  I figured that was what caused the flyers.  Live and learn. Very interesting!  I hope you will report shooting bullets that don't have that apparent defect and see if that eliminates the occasional large group.  That could indeed be one of the causes of real fliers -- or not.

Finding out would be a real contribution.

John

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onondaga posted this 21 September 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=134>hrafknel

I am a retired casting analyst and well experienced in identifying and diagnosing casting flaws. You report a small “Frosty ” area. Please post a close-up of the flaw you are seeing. The flaw is just as likely a “cold short” and difficult for many experienced casters to identify. I am trained to tell the difference and a very close up macro-photograph will make identification easy for me.

The remedies for “cold short” and localized “frosty” spots are very different, but either is easily correctable with a change in casting method, thermodynamics or casting cadence.

Show me what you have if you desire an accurate diagnosis and suggestions for correction. I need to see the surface of the “frost" very clearly in your photograph.

A view of the frost showing the edge of a frost pocket as jagged, sharp and broken metal accompanied by shrink back is a localized hot spot. Unbroken, smooth, rounded edge pockets are a cold short or the result of mold contamination. Correction for either type of flaw is an easy adjustment to your method once identification is correct.

Gary

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hrafknel posted this 12 January 2016

Update: 9.0 gr. AA 5744, 8 five shot groups, average 1.56"             10.0 gr. AA 5744, 7 five shot groups, average 2.22"              10.0 gr. RL 7, 5 five shot groups, average 1.97"              11.0 gr RL 7, 5 five shot groups, average 1.43"              6.0 grs. TiteGroup, 16 five shot groups, average 2.7"              6.5 grs. TiteGroup, 5 five shot groups, average 1.38"              7.0 grs. TiteGroup, 4 five shot groups, average 3.24" All at 100 yds, two different shooters, same Savage, temperature mid 20s to low 70s, wind from nil to very brisk.  Shot from a bench by two 70+ years old amateurs.

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John Alexander posted this 12 January 2016

Excellent summary!  Good work for a couple of youngsters.  Reporting averages of several groups instead of single groups (or worse yet best group) really puts some substance to your results. Your experience shows what can be done in with an excellent bullet design and a good 22 CF rifle.

I was interested to see that one of your better loads, 9 grains of 5744 was the load I used with a NEI clone of your bullet in competition for about ten years with good results.

Such a substantial amount of work would make an excellent article for the Fouling Shot and I encourage you to write one.

John

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Scearcy posted this 12 January 2016

I have contemplated shooting cast in my 223s for several years. Please do write an article. It would be widely read. Jim

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mike morrison posted this 13 January 2016

My .223 noe 60gr. Likes 7.5 green dot

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 13 January 2016

congrats on the great shooting with the 22's ... it is starting to look as if the 22 cast are not impossible to get under 4 moa .... maybe that will encourage more of us to try smaller bores ...

once you get down to 2 moa, it becomes possible to tweak the system and detect improvements .... at 4 moa not quite so much ...

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 16 January 2016

It looks like 5.5 to 7 grains of Titegroup has been mentioned here, this for a 223. I haven't been using enough. Since 6 grains works so well in 2 22-250 barrels, I thought less would be required in a 223. Could it be that a given amount of powder gives accuracy with a given bullet, regardless of case size?

I'll load 6, 6.5 and 7 today.

Thanks; joe b.

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billglaze posted this 16 January 2016

Joe:Please post your results, when available.   I'm still fiddling with the .220 Swift and am highly interested in your work and results.   So far, I've discovered the Swift doesn't like unsized bullets and dislikes tumble lubed projectiles, also.I've had little trouble with making 10 shot sub-2” groups but they're not “sub” by nearly enough to get me bragging rights. Powder-wise, so far Red Dot and Titegroup seem to be working the best.  I also tried 22 Gr. 4895, and had a bad experience; several cases ruined by what seems to be excessive pressure.  I guess it's the dreaded “detonation” or whatever it's called.  In over 60 years of handloading, I've never before had this ugly experience. Anyway, I'm still hanging in there. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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joeb33050 posted this 16 January 2016

billglaze wrote: Joe:Please post your results, when available.   I'm still fiddling with the .220 Swift and am highly interested in your work and results.   So far, I've discovered the Swift doesn't like unsized bullets and dislikes tumble lubed projectiles, also.I've had little trouble with making 10 shot sub-2” groups but they're not “sub” by nearly enough to get me bragging rights. Powder-wise, so far Red Dot and Titegroup seem to be working the best.  I also tried 22 Gr. 4895, and had a bad experience; several cases ruined by what seems to be excessive pressure.  I guess it's the dreaded “detonation” or whatever it's called.  In over 60 years of handloading, I've never before had this ugly experience. Anyway, I'm still hanging in there. BillBill; What charges of Titegroup are you using, with what bullet weight. I just loaded 6, 6.5 and 7 grains and a 60 grain 225646M; will shoot next week. I don't know why unsized works, but it does so far. Also, LLA and mineral spirits. Blue dot and IMR4227 worked OK in 223, but 22-250 has me grinning. Thanks; joe b.

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