Seeing as S&W Model 52's are notorious for having undersized bores (for 38 Specials that is) I was wondering if anybody has tried sizing bullets to .356 instead of the usual .357 or .358 ?
I measured my bore and it was on the tight side being .3547. Before I go and buy a .356 sizer I thought I would ask to see if anybody has experimented with this smaller sizing die and if they had any success with this smaller than normal diameter for a 38 Special in their 52.
Johnny
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Johnny, I have tried the bore sized .355, and the .356, and the standard .358. The .358 tends to group a little better in my 52-1. I don't know exactly why, but it does. I had used Bullseye and 231 powders for my testing. Maybe different powders might give different results.
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I too had a mod 52 S&W in 38 special.And obviously shot better with the larger bullets sized 358 .
The fallacious ( and suicidal) advice of the Lyman handbooks ,of sizing cast bullets to the groove diameter is the single most grievous cause of leading and inaccuracy in cast bullet shooting.
The second mistake is using rifle bullets with a too small nose , or forepart .
If you are an artist in mechanics and you can handle micrometers and throat measurements , measure the throats and size your bullets to fit the throat of your guns, if you are a five thumbs countryboy as me , just load the fattest bullet that are chambered without effort .
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When I began handloading for my 52-2, I had intended to try a .356” bullet but never did. After shooting the pistol with a .358” bullet, I doubt .356” would be any more accurate.
Like the 52s, many Colt .38 & .357 revolvers also have tight bores but are quite accurate with .358” and .359” bullets. As mentioned by Giorgio, best accuracy is usually achieved with the fattest bullet that easily chambers.
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Not looking so much for better accuracy but the .358 bullets are leaving a ring of lead at the chamber mouth. Shooting a 30 round NRA Bullseye Gallery course isn't a problem so much. But shooting a 900 where 90 shots are taken I get leading in the chamber mouth and the more I fire after 30-35 rounds the more the leading extends down the barrel and at some point the ring of lead in the chamber will extend back into the chamber causing hard chambering and an alibi. The chamber is the correct dimension for a 38 Special but the barrel is not .357 or .358. Has nothing to do with throats but rather the extreme sizing down from chamber to leade to a bore because S&W used 9mm barrels at .355 and not the correct bore for the 38 Special. I know S&W did this to save on tooling so they could use the same barrel/rifling as the Model 39 9mm but IMHO S&W dropped the ball on this fine target pistol by doing this. I know Jerry Keefer has been experimenting with making a barrel with a 1-10 twist and the correct .358 bore but at this time nobody is making any replacement barrels for the 52 nor is it likely that anybody ever will seeing as to the limited market.
As far as the smaller sizing (.356) I figure I can make up neck tension on the bullet by using different manufactures brass. Right now I use Remington because they are the thinnest but I could always use Star-Line or Federal which are thicker. Who knows, maybe by using thicker brass (which I didn't use so as not to size down the WC when seating) I will eliminate my chamber ring leading. LOL
Johnny
Not flaming anybody, just some random thoughts
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Certainly worth trying and may very well eliminate the leading. I've experienced slight leading with my .358” bullets, but never enough to affect accuracy or cause hard chambering. However, I don't recall (as in your situation) ever firing 90 rounds without at least running a dry brush through the bore. Good luck-
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johnny ... interesting ...the good news is that we never learn anything when everything is working perfectly ... so here is a learning opportunity ( g ) .
just to clarify ,,, what is your ” chamber mouth ” ?
i am tempted to recommend a more gradual forcing cone ... but then i am used to round tube rifle barrels, where if a brilliant idea doesn't work, i can just chop off half an inch and start over .
have you tried dropping your load about a 100 fps ? or slower powder ?
also, any chance of firing a ” cleaning shot ” every 30 shots or so ?
ken
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Hi Ken,
I'm shooting 2.5 and 2.7 of Bullseye so I can't go much lower without a malfunction. About 3.0 of BE would be max in a Model 52. Sorry for the vague description, I get leading where the mouth of the cartridge case in the chamber ends by the throat or what you are calling the forcing cone. My 2.7 grain load with 148 grain HBWC is doing right around 750 fps according to my chronograph.
There are different powders that I can try but most that work well with the Model 52 are very close to the same burn rate. I guess I could try Unique but I don't know of anybody that uses that powder in their 52, it could prove interesting.
In NRA Conventional Pistol Matches ( Bullseye) a shooter goes from slow fire to timed fire to rapid fire. There isn't much of a brake to clean the gun except for going down to score targets and reloading magazines. This usually goes by fairly quick and new shooters to the sport ( something I'm not) get the feeling that they are being rushed. That should be a good indication as to the timing or lack of time. As for a cleaning shot it's no dice!!! You get 10 shots at a target. If you are shooting a 900 then you shoot 90 shots at 9 targets. If you fire more than those 10 per target you are then charged with an alibi. So say you fire 10 shots and you have scored all 10's (only happens with me in my dreams) and then you fire a cleaning shot into the berm or other safe place. Then you have actually fired 11 shots when you are only allowed 10. So when someone scores the target they take the highest scoring shot which is a 10 (or an “X") and throw it away. So now you have 9 shots on target and one miss. You just went from scoring a perfect 100 points to scoring a 90(nine 10's and 1 miss that is marked as ZERO points)
Range officers usually catch these when guys try to sneak one extra shot in.
Replacement barrels are like hens teeth so the thought of trying to re-cut the throat is kind of a scarey proposition.
It has been interesting working with this firearm and it sure doesn't hurt picking everybody else's minds to find solutions to problems that I may not think of.
Johnny
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As Ken suggests the problem might well be the forcing cone in the throat .
I might try commercial wad cutters ,that usually are sized to 357.
This lead ring is not normal.
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I have read that leading in the troat and in the beginning of the riflng is caused bi too small bullets , or too hard bullets for the pressure of the load .
What is your alloy?
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Here's what I come up with in my 52-2. Sizing .356 - 4 - 5 shot groups averaged 1 3/8" Sizing .357 - 4 - 5 shot groups averaged 1 9/16" Both sizes were shot with 2.7 grs. Of BE. Bullet is the H&G #50.Two handed off the bench at 50 ft. Tried Titegroup. No as good as BE. Trying Red Dot. Showing promise.
Pete
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well, if we read the * rules for success * again, where the bullet should be so big it is almost a push fit in the ” throat ” ...
maybe 0.358 isn't big enough ... i had a very nice Cramer mold once that cast 0.360 .. just the ticket for some guns ...
if reaming out a perfectly good barrel scares you, you probably wouldn't like my additional trick of mixing JB compound into your bullet lube ... shooting them for all your record shots ...
ken
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The best idea would be to ditch the hollow base wadcutters and use cast solid base wadcutters,I would be looking for a bevel base,double ended bullet.Mike.
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I have a 52-2 that measures almost the same and .358 and .359 hbwc make the tightest groups in my gun, I think a tight fit in the rifling and the pressure stays high and consistent.
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