Ruger forcing cone angle ?

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  • Last Post 29 May 2015
R. Dupraz posted this 17 January 2015

What's the forcing cone angle in the Ruger .357 and .44 revolvers? 

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Ed Harris posted this 17 January 2015

Depends when they were made. Very early ones pre-1976 left the factory at 18 degrees. If the gun was returned to customer service for repair it could have been touched up with an 11 degree, because this will remove existing tool marks without enlarging the major diameter of the forcing cone opening. They starting fooling with a 5-1/2 degree in the late 1980s on the .357s and on the India .380/.200 to ease pressure on the oversized bullets entering the tight barrels. That combination worked very well and was carried over to SP101 and GP100 production, but the single-actions for the most part stuck with the 11 degree so far as I know.

I left the company in '88, so they could have changed things since then, but that is what I remember.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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R. Dupraz posted this 17 January 2015

Thanks ED. I was hoping that you would reply.     What prompted this question is a newer BH 44 special that I have had for a couple of years. While it will shoot pretty well with a 246 gr. cast, I am getting some leading in the forcing cone which then degrades the accuracy.     The forcing cone looks rather rough and was thinking of getting a brass FC lap to smooth it up some but don't know what the angle should be.     Otherwise, it's a dandy revolver and is great fun to shoot.

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Ed Harris posted this 28 May 2015

Both of my Ruger Vaqueros in .44 Magnum and .44-40 have HUGE forcing cones in which the barrel forcing cone entrance is large enough to accept a .45 slug!  Both the .44 Magnum and .44-40 forcing cones accept a .44-40 cartridge case neck and all with free space all around it!  Inserting a .45 ACP Ball round into them shows the forcing cone is cut to normal dimensions for a .45! It is apparent that Ruger didn't change their setup when changing from .45 to .44 cal.  My two Vaqueros were built two years apart and are both cut this way.  

Interestingly the forcing cone on my .44 Magnum Super Blackhawk is cut much tighter, just like my  S&W Model  544.  

While a cavernous forcing cone is forgiving of sloppy timing and loose cylinder lockup in a worn out gun, it is not ideal for best target accuracy.  But in reality it presents no problem in terms of practical field utility.  One inch group spreads per ten yards target fistance with fixed sights is acceptable.  

The Ruger barrel extension protrudes only minimally into the frame opening so that the threaded barrel shank is very well supported. The oversized forcing cone is not a strength issue, and it doesn't lead either.  Accuracy is acceptable for a fixed sight utility gun. While comparing the forcing cone in my .45 Blackhawk convertible, to the Vaquero .44s, they seemed to be cut with similar tools. So, for curiosity sake I tried the .45 ACP and .45 Colt cylinders in both Vaquero frames, and found that they fit, timed and indexed fine in both frames, with acceptable cylinder gap.  

The interchangibility of computerized manufactured parts combined with the generous forcing cones does entertain interesting fantasies for emergency, expedient ammo use. Knowing from experience testing similar revolvers at the factory, I confidently knew that large frame Ruger single-actions are hell for strong.  Mis-rollmarked frames with .41 Magnum barrels on them, which were mistakenly fitted with .44 Magnum cylinders passed proof and targeting just fine, and were only tagged, “spits!”  When they got back to assembly the error was apparent when a .44 range rod wouldn't enter the barrel, and they had to go through accepted boxed units in shipping to find them all!   I could write a book, “Wild tales from the night shift...."  So, I decided to shot a few W-W factory 255-grain, standard pressure lead bullet .45 Colts and some midrange cast lead .45 ACP wadcutters in the two  Vaqueros just to see how well my  "Squeeze Bore"  .45/.44's performed in terms of velocity and accuracy.  Shooting soft lead .45s down a .44 barrel works much better than bouncing .44-40s down the .45 Colt barrel, but even those are good enough to stay in your hat, keyholes and all at across the bar room floor distance....

Kids, please don't do this at home! But I knew that inquiring minds would want to know.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

mckg posted this 28 May 2015

Very interesting.

This reminds me of the .430 Nonte.

The good major thought about all the surplus .45 revolvers left after WWII and decided that the best way to use them was simply to refit them with .44 spare barrels.

You would then simply cut down rifle brass with an ACP-like head, in order to use moon clips, and reload the result with an assortment of .44 and .45 dies (I assume he meant to cut brass to cylinder length).

Since he didn't offer any load data or testing report, I don't think any gun was ever put together.

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Ed Harris posted this 28 May 2015

mckg wrote: Very interesting.

This reminds me of the .430 Nonte.

The good major thought about all the surplus .45 revolvers left after WWII and decided that the best way to use them was simply to refit them with .44 spare barrels.

You would then simply cut down rifle brass with an ACP-like head, in order to use moon clips, and reload the result with an assortment of .44 and .45 dies (I assume he meant to cut brass to cylinder length).

Since he didn't offer any load data or testing report, I don't think any gun was ever put together. Frank put a .44 Special Hand Ejector barrel on a shot-out M1917 and shot factory lead .45 Auto Rims and light soft lead .45 wadcutters in it for years.  Claimed that he found the pulled-off barrel in his junk box and didn't have his glasses on when it screwed it into the frame.  It fit up so good and shot so well he just left it that way..... Wish I knew where the gun was now.  Photo here is a .452” diameter, 255-grain Winchester .45 Colt lead flatnosed slug pulled from a factory round and dropped into my .44 Vaquero barrel.  It is a perfect fit for a .45!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mckg posted this 28 May 2015

All these stories... I'm going to suggest it on the other thread too: the hensleygibbs website might be a good home for Tales From The Night Shift And Other Ed's Stories.

Regarding the cylinder/barrel mismatch, while reading your post about the Blackhawk experiment, I didn't think the old Hand Ejector would be a good candidate. I certainly wouldn't try it with my New Service, due to frog hair forcing cones and fuzzy indexing.

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Ed Harris posted this 28 May 2015

mckg wrote: All these stories... I'm going to suggest it on the other thread too: the hensleygibbs website might be a good home for Tales From The Night Shift And Other Ed's Stories.

Regarding the cylinder/barrel mismatch, while reading your post about the Blackhawk experiment, I didn't think the old Hand Ejector would be a good candidate. I certainly wouldn't try it with my New Service, due to frog hair forcing cones and fuzzy indexing. I would agree, but Frank stuck to light loads and was an intrepid soul....

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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R. Dupraz posted this 29 May 2015

Thanks Ed for the interesting information. Good stuff. After taking care of the barrel thread crush early on, I later discovered that my bullets were too small for the throats. Basic stuff here. Once that was fixed, The Ruger will put five shots in an inch and a half or so at twenty five when I remember to clip on my aperture eye disk and am in the right mood. Plenty good for this 70 yr old knave. RCBS 245 grn. PB.   So, after finally learning not to fix things that aren't broke, the idea of  polishing or recutting the forcing cone thankfully was forgotten. Think this NMBH 44 Special has found a home for the duration.   

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