Set Back Shoulders

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Wineman posted this 10 November 2014

I have some 30-06 cases that through over zealous full length sizing and very light loads have the shoulders set back 0.01 to 0.015” from the as fired head space length (base to mid shoulder). For example out of the M1 the cases are 2.050” +/- 0.002” for M2 Ball ammo. The cases in question are at 2.037-2.040". As reloads, they seem to fire fine but will the shoulders be pushed back to an as fired length with a full power load or will they always stay short? If they do get pushed back is that a good thing or is the brass getting too thin at the base area?

Dave

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onondaga posted this 10 November 2014

They won't stay short, as soon as you fire them they will re-fire form and it doesn't even take a hot load to do that. Even a START load will fire form brass just fine. Try to set your sizing die for as little shoulder set back that will allow easy chambering of your loaded ammo. Usually .001-.005 is fine and that small amount will work harden  your brass a lot less that the .010-.015 you mention. Your brass will last longer with a low set back than a long one. Gary

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John Alexander posted this 10 November 2014

Wineman,

Is the shortening you mention before or after you FL resize?  If before, the light loads are causing the shortening and if the shortening is only after FL sizing it is, of course, the sizing.

If the sizing die is doing the shortening Gary is right size less - only enough to make the M1 work.    FL sizing with decent FL sizing dies you shouldn't be able to set the shoulder back .015".  This is not to say that all FL dies are decent. 

If it is the light loads that are setting your shoulder back it is the pressure of the primer blast building up while getting through the flash hole.  The cure is to drill out the flash hole so the pressure in the primer pocket builds up less.  

There is a theory that using cases with the flash holes enlarged may cause dangerous pressures if used for full charge loads.  I have never seen one shred of evidence to support this theory but I have never seen a report that debunks it either.  So if you drill out flash holes the case should be segregated, marked, and used only for reduced loads -- until somebody does some testing to debunk or prove the theory. 

John  

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nimrod posted this 10 November 2014

With the shoulder set back that far if you were to fire that case with a full charge load you could have a case separation. A VERY BAD THING TO HAPPEN so I would approach with caution and I would seat the bullet out long to engage the rifling to hold the case back against the beech face and then fire with a light load and check to see if it did indeed blow out and fire form to the chamber. Again I'm going to state that this is a dangerous situation and should be approached with caution. I don't know what kind of rifle that you are using but a lot if not all of the older military and sporter rifles just were not designed to handle gases running around wild in the chamber and you can get some very serious blow back into your face. Wear shooting glasses and protect your self when dealing with this kind of issue you should be wearing them anyway!

RB

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R. Dupraz posted this 10 November 2014

Good reply nimrod. That's the first thought that came to mind when I saw those numbers. And the safety glasses.      Personally, I would pitch those cases that  have shoulders set back more than a couple of thousand's. Brass is cheap.

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corerf posted this 10 November 2014

This situation is not TOO different from reforming a std to ackley shoulder. The case should be pinned by a long seated bullet. A load well below wide open should be used to reform. I don't believe in that condition there is any chance of separation or fear of failure. Slow powder, modest load, use the bolt to seat the bullet. It will reform safely. If he's spendy, light load of red dot over COW, no bullet. Id rather preserve the COW for breakfast. Treat the situation like a wildcat case forming process.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 10 November 2014

just a thought on enlarged primer holes ... not only does it let the primer gasses escape faster into the larger case volumn ... but it also gives less surface for the pressure to create forwatd force against.


i might mention that my obsessive mj benchrest shooter friend fine tuned his ppc via hole diameter ... claimed that since he shot moly, and they were slicker, he needed to build pressure faster.

i think that would make joeb's * doesn't matter * list.

ken

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Wineman posted this 11 November 2014

Thanks for the great and thoughtful replies. Like most things I think there is a number of contributing factors. With the M1 Garand, I am reluctant to seat long. Even a hefty cast load does not seem to push the shoulder forward if already too short. My press is the little LEE Challenger and it does not have a full stop. It will come up against some aluminum tabs but they are fragile (ask me how I know). A steady line of light loads did not help. I have a Wilson HS/Case length gauge. I would size and no matter how I adjusted the LEE F/L die, the rim was always below the lower level (shoulder set too far back).

As an experiment, I started with some freshly fired M2 Ball HXP cases and a set of feeler gauges. I put a 0.010” on the top of the shell holder when I sized a case and “Bam” perfect cases on the Wilson Gauge, right between the steps, and closer to the top. They feed and fit fine in the M1, so I got a set of Redding Comp shell holders and the +0.006” one makes nice cases every time.

I always wear safety glasses but thanks for the reminder. The M1 is probably the safest but I don't want to play with a slam fire with by seating long. I may try some some long seated bullets in a M1917 or M1903A3 to see if the shoulder will push back to a normal length. Or as recommended, pitch those suckers if it does not work.

Dave

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onondaga posted this 11 November 2014

I have a Lee Challenger and they are designed with a dead stop when dies are adjusted correctly.  The challenger does have some give. Try setting up your FL sizing die this way: 1, Loosen lock ring all the way up. 2, Lift ram with shell holder and no shell to full up position and hold operating lever firmly at full up position. 3, Adjust FL die down to full contact with shell holder. 4, lower ram and adjust die 1/2 turn more down and set. 5, test size a fireformed case using a 1/4” wide standard printer paper strip between shell holder and die bottom. 6, The strip should be pinched between die and shell holder at full ram up position when sizing, If paper is not pinched, adjust die down till it is pinched on the stroke end when sizing a fresh fire-formed case. If this sizing setup makes your brass short, get a new die and new shell holder. This setup should FL size your brass with .001-.005” setback of the shoulder and no more. The dies are designed to do this and if you get more setback than .005", your die or shell holder is faulty. Gary

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Wineman posted this 11 November 2014

Gary,

Good info and the right way to do it. The problem I found was that even when adjusted as described, the set back was too much. The press keeps hitting the die that is backed off until the linkage hits the “stops". I cracked my press linkage last year and had to get a new one. The LEE die may be the issue, but with the LEE shell holder and F/L die and the press not in breakage mode, the shoulders were set back too far.

The Redding comp shell holders work great. They go from +0.002 to +0.010 in 0.002 steps.  The shell holders cost about the same as a new set of Redding dies ($46) but since I felt the press was the limiting part, the money was well spent. Any FL die is going to have the same adjustment limitations as the LEE die. I can fine tune the set back with the shell holders with any other die too. Sure I need a new press and one of the LEE turrets is on my Xmas list.:D

Dave

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onondaga posted this 11 November 2014

The linkage design on the Lee Turret presses is essentially the same dead stop design as the Challenger but with a little more leverage and a larger diameter ram on the turret press. I recommend you discuss your challenging interpretation of the Lee press setup and die setup with the Lee Technical people. All Lee presses are  dead stop presses with zero cam-over and should easily setup to full length size at a dead stop. Something is missing from what you are saying. Redding die setup on Redding press instructions are very different than Lee instructions and they don't just cross over. If your heart is set on using Redding dies, use a Redding press and follow their instructions as the Redding presses cam over and that is accounted for in their instructions. Nobody's dies will push a shoulder back the .015” you mention without mismatching parts, out of spec parts,  or inventing hybrid instructions and mixing different manufacturer dies, shell holders and presses. Gary

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Wineman posted this 11 November 2014

Gary,

You are right. I confused the LEE “Challenger” with the LEE “Reloader” (their little starter one that I have) press. If I had the Challenger, I may not have had the issues. I was using all LEE items and I would get shoulder set back of once fired M2 Ball brass with a worst case of 0.014” (2.051-2.037 measured on a Forester HS gauge and a Fowler digital caliper). I did not try the LEE F/L die in any other press so I don't know if it is the die or not. I do know that using the comp shell holder and the Reloader press/Full Length die does not set the shoulder back too far. Thanks for making me get the names right.

Dave

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tturner53 posted this 12 November 2014

I'll just add that the above comments re. case separations are realistic based on my own experience. The power released out the wrong end of the launch pad can be enough to break strong metal parts, in your face. I know this first hand.

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R. Dupraz posted this 12 November 2014

That .015” setback number prompted my reply above. And then case separation above the web came to mind.      As most who frequent this forum, I have more than one rifle of the same cal. So I keep the brass for the cast rifles labeled and separate from the other brass that's normally loaded full throttle. Pretty careful about that so they don't get mixed up. And, to minimize the possibility of anyone else getting in trouble sometime.      Overly cautious, maybe. But, everything considered, as far as I am concerned, it's not worth it.

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Wineman posted this 14 November 2014

As they say “ignorance is bliss” without the fancy tools (not that the Wilson gauge is fancy) I would have kept sizing away. Now I feel that I have a grasp of what is going on. I do need to open up some flash holes for the lighter loads and keep things separate.

Dave

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 14 November 2014

just as i collect stray dogs i would take your wounded 30-06 brass, i never have enough plinking brass. pm me, price or trade for ? i will make a tool to blow them out and then check for head stretch.

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 18 November 2014

Very interesting. Lots of opinions.   Here are some safety recommendations:   IF you have any question about the safety of brass cartridge cases, recycle that brass. Throw it out or send it to the scrap man. Don't give it away to the unsuspecting.   ALWAYS Segregate brass that is fired with very light loads. Don't fire it with full loads. Use it only with light or very light loads. The primer pushes the shoulder back, and will, after repeated firing, push the shoulder back as much as .019”.   AT LEAST Segregate brass that is fired with autoloader, pump, lever guns..   OR BETTER Segregate brass by gun. One lot of brass for each gun.   DON'T Drill large flash holes in brass (opinioneers recomment #28 drill for example-don't listen to them.) to keep shoulders from setting back on cases fired with light loads. Oil the cases lightly, the shoulders won't set back. (I don't believe that large flash holes blow guns up, but why take the chance? Oil the cases, sizing lube or ?)   Now, I don't know what happened or what you did, and I read all the posts in this thread many times, trying to learn something.   “Headspace” is about the chamber in a gun, there are corresponding dimensions for cartridges that are also, sometimes, called cartridge headspace.   The SAAMI 30-06 drawing is here:   http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/30-06%20Springfield.pdf>http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CCDrawings/Rifle/30-06%20Springfield.pdf   Chamber headspace is 2.0487”/2.0587” from base to .375” shoulder dimension.   Cartridge headspace is 2.0526” - .0070” or 2.0526”/2.0456”   The Wilson combination case length and headspace gauge DOES NOT  measure headspace of the cartridge.   This is Wilson's response to my question: (If you want to read all the emails, just ask and I'll copy them to you.)   “http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/30-06%20Springfield.pdf>http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CCDrawings/Rifle/30-06%20Springfield.pdf  Please see link for datum to head (HEADSPACE) shown on print as 1.948 delta at .441delta.  The reason it is a point on the shoulder is so the case rests on the shoulder angle to give an accurate reading from case to case.  

We set our gage to 1.945 (top step) at datum of .441 as shown on print for max cartridge so min (lower step) will read 1.940.”   Now, the delta referred to indicates a reference dimension-according to the SAAMI drawing. I now know what the Wilson gauge measures/is cut to, and it ain't headspace. It's like headspace, it may be close to headspace, the gauge may work just fine, but it ain't headspace and you can't get to cartridge headspace from measurements using the Wilson gauge.   Back to your thread.   SAAMI Cartridge headspace is 2.0526” - .0070” or 2.0526”/2.0456”   “For example out of the M1 the cases are 2.050” +/- 0.002” for M2 Ball ammo. The cases in question are at 2.037-2.040".”   I don't know when or how or with what you measured these dimensions, but the M! cases are within the spec and the “cases in question” are .2.0456”-2.037” ~ .008” to 2.0456”-2.040” = .006”  less than the spec.   If the measurements are dead nuts, there's no particular problem. SOME CORRECTLY ADJUSTED DIES WILL REDUCE HEADSPACE AS MUCH AS .008” BELOW CHAMBER MINIMUM WHEN FL SIZING.   The sizing can be adjusted by adjusting = raising the die, changing shell holder height/dimensions and/or using a neck sizing die.   “ I was using all LEE items and I would get shoulder set back of once fired M2 Ball brass with a worst case of 0.014” (2.051-2.037 measured on a Forester HS gauge and a Fowler digital caliper). “   I don't get the 2.051”-2.037” = .014” calculation.   The Forster Datum Dial Ammunition Measurement System,   http://www.forsterproducts.com/store.asp?pid=37195&catid=19938>http://www.forsterproducts.com/store.asp?pid=37195&catid=19938   appears to require three hands to use. I'd think measurements would be iffy and that a lot of practice would help.   Note that Forster recommends using an average of 5 measurements. I would be suspect of any one measurement. It's about measurement and STATISTICS.   For measuring cartridge headspace, the RCBS Precision Mic has worked flawlessly for me for years. http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/case-gauges-headspace-tools/rcbs-precision-mic-cartridge-headspace-tool-prod33476.aspx>http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/case-gauges-headspace-tools/rcbs-precision-mic-cartridge-headspace-tool-prod33476.aspx

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Wineman posted this 30 June 2015

OK, so I am a slow learner. I had a little break from work (not my choice but I think things worked out in my favor) so I proceeded to process the 1,000 or so fired 30-06 cases I had laying around from four years of match shooting. Lots of LC69, HXP 62,63, 69, 70-78 and 82. A few KA, a hundred or so mixed range pick up and some LC62 Match. I got a LEE turret press and with the Redding Comp shell holders, I can pretty much put the shoulder where I want to. In the M1 the fired brass has a range of 2.049"-2.051” base to the 0.375” datum line on the shoulder according to a Forester Headspace gauge. I chose 2.047” +/- 0.0015” (as close as I can get) as my target for full length sized brass. This number jives with a Wilson HS/Length gauge and is just above the lower step.

They fit the M1 and M1917 perfectly. No signs of binding and the bolts close without any force. However in the M1903A3 with the safety in the vertical position the bolt she no close! This is the rifle where light loads seem to really push the shoulder back, some times under 2.030".

Since I can make my own “head space” gauges using fired and sized cases I finally figured out my issue. I used one lot of brass and had the range of HS from 2.043-2.051 in 0.0015” jumps. I also trimmed all the brass to 2.485". The numbers are only relative, the 0.0005” is just a suggestion and of course brass is not tool steel but I really got an education.

Starting on the long side, I could not close the bolt until I got to 2.045” and then is did not fall into place, but needed a firm push. Sure I could make any of them chamber if I reefed on the bolt, but that is not what FL cases should do. With a HS of 2.044 there is just a hint of drag as you close the bolt. At 2.0435” the bolt will close like there is not a case in the chamber. The SAAMI minimum 30-06 chamber is supposed to be 2.0487". I am guessing that this rifle is short chambered. I have only shot hand loaded cast bullets and only used the virgin LC62 Match brass, which has a starting HS of 2.044". I don't really have an issue unless I sell the rifle, it is easy enough to make cases fit without forcing the bolt and even neck sized brass works nicely with the light cast loads. 100 cases or so is plenty for match shooting and short range practice. I did make up a bunch of cases and opened up the flash hole. That seems to have halted the the shoulder migration. I use these for 25-50 yard off hand practice and plinking.

Thanks for all the help.

Dave

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Larry Gibson posted this 30 June 2015

The situation of shoulder set back causing the case headspace dimension to diminish is a common one, especially in rifles that are push feeds with plunger ejectors when cartridges having LR primers are used with true squib, cat's sneeze or mouse fart loads are used. The shoulder of the case is set back because the chamber shoulder “resizes” it back a bit on each firing. This is caused by the force of the firing pin driving the case forward so the shoulder hits the chamber shoulder. The primer explosion in the primer pocket also drives the case forward. Both those actions are what sizes the shoulder back a bit each time. How much is dependent on numerous things. With such loads the powder charge does not create enough psi to expand the case to grip the chamber walls at all. The primer explosion in the pocket may or may not force the primer back out of the pocket; usually not as the force of the firing pin spring on most bolt actions will hold it in the primer pocket.

Thus there may not be the “visual” of the primer backing out to tell us of the problem. Oiling or lubricating the case is tantamount to lubing the case for resizing; just makes it easier for the primer explosion to size the shoulder back.

In push feed actions this can lead to misfires after several firings as the case is pushed deeper into the chamber after each firing until the firing pin no longer has the reach to the primer for proper firing. Extraction of the case can also be a problem if the case is far enough into the chamber that the extractor can not engage the rim.

On controlled feed actions misfires and extraction seldom becomes a problem as the shoulder can be sized back only to the extent to where the extractor will hold the case back. On most CRF actions the firing pin is adjusted to have sufficient protrusion to fire a cartridge held by the extractor without the case shoulder “headspacing”. Actually that is the situation with factory ammo fired in most all CRF rifles, especially milsurp rifles. Seldom do the cases in such “headspace” on the case shoulder when fired.

It is with push feed actions that the real problem arises of the case should set back with truly light loads, especially cast bullet loads. With medium or normal cast bullet loads shoulder set on the case is seldom a problem. If large numbers of such squib, cat's sneeze or mouse fart loads are going to used repeatedly in the same cases the easiest way to avoid case shoulder setback is to simply drill the flash holes out. A #28 drill is the largest to use with LR primers. This prevents the force of the explosion, which considerable testing has shown, causes most of the case shoulder set back with such loads. It has the additional benefit of getting the flash into the case quicker and more uniformly resulting in better ignition uniformity and less “powder position sensitivity”.

Extensive testing the .308W and the 30-06 in CRF and PF actions with a cat's sneeze load of 3.2 gr Bullseye under the Lee TL314-90-SWC using cases with and w/o the flash holes drilled have consistently demonstrated the benefits of drilling the flash holes. Cases without the flash holes drilled developed case headspace issues in as little as 3 firings cause misfires in PF actions depending on the cases used (thickness of the brass and degree of anneal at the shoulder). Cases with the flash holes drilled were fired many times without any case headspace set back. Uniformity of ignition and internal ballistics were improved as was accuracy on target at 50 yards. As the psi was less than 7 ”€œ 9000 a pressure reading via the Oehler M43 was not obtained.

The cases with and with out the flash holes drilled were also tested with “normal” cast bullet loads of the 311291 over 4895 and a dacron filler in both the .308W and the 30-06 in the 1850 1900 fps range. No discernible difference in psi between the cases. There was only a slight improvement in the internal ballistics when the cases with the drilled flash holes were used. The ES and SD of the velocity and the psi were smaller and more uniform. The accuracy on target at 100 yards was also slightly better but additional and more thorough testing would be needed to determine if there is a real benefit with drilled flash hole cases with such medium or “normal” level cast bullet loads. Additionally equivalent loads duplicating M2 and M80 ballistics were tested in the cases with and without the flash holes drilled. Again there was no discernible difference in psi or velocity. The internals were remarkably similar. However, while I do recommend the drilling of flash holes for the use of squib, cat's sneeze or mouse fart loads I do not recommend for normal loads, cast or jacketed.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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tlkeizer posted this 30 June 2015

Greetings,

One of the things to keep in mind is that if you adjust for the M1, and back the sizing die just a bit, check the brass in your other 06's to make sure the head space is not too tight and they work properly.

I had an M1A that I shot competitively some years, and my brass always worked fine. I have a Savage 99 that I had problems in that sometimes the hammer would not quite fall, and when the lever was moved to open the chamber the round would fire. It seemed the headspace in my 99 is very tight, and I needed to tighten up my resizer so rounds would fit in the 99 properly. Gunsmith found the problem by putting a piece of scotch tape on the back of a factory case that had been emptied and had the same problem as with my reloads, just those few thousands of the tape told the tale. I had wondered why problem was not consistent, not realizing the problem was with reloads and not factory brass.

TK

P.S. The Savage consistently gives me inch to inch-and-a-half groups at 100 yds (although with, gasp, j'd bullets).

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Wineman posted this 30 June 2015

Larry and TK, great advice as usual. My M1903A3 shoots cast very well with the two groove barrel. I have put five rounds into one hole at 25 yards (once) and the 3.25” 10 ring of the SR-1 shot prone and in a sling is not too hard, eyes, sight, age etc. not withstanding.

My guess is most factory ammo is at the minimum or just below for head space (SAAMI 2.0456") to account for the smallest chamber. When I got the rifle, I had a few instances where the bolt closed pretty hard and I attributed it to an improper seating depth but not long head space. After firing the cases were below the lower step of my Wilson gauge. FL sizing made things worse. Now that I know what the problem was/is, it will be easy to keep cases for this rifle separate and stick to sizing regimen the lets the cases fit without resistance on the bolt.

Dave

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