What is the best way to clean a bore?

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Last Post 09 August 2014

CBA President

John Alexander posted this 15 July 2014

I was careless and started this thread under black powder. Since I didn't intend to imply cleaning for black powder, I have moved it to where I should have started it under cleaning and maintenance. The two posts in response before I realized my mistake are copied below.

I think there is probably agreement that bore condition is important to cast bullet accuracy. What is the best way to control bore condition so all the shots on one target see the most uniform bore condition? Ideally that could be with a combination that didn't need cleaning at all which is possible but often hard to find that combination.

At matches I have seen some cleaning vigorously after every target. Others don't clean at all. There are good shooter in both camps.

When we clean should we clean as close to bare metal as possible (Kroil, stiff brush, JB or similar) or just push a patch (maybe with a little secret elixir on it) through to push out the more or less loose stuff to avoid losing bore condition. If you clean down to bare metal, how many fouling shotes are needed before you dare to go to the record target or shoot at a squirrel?

I know that practice and opinion varies but what can we sort out as general rule by testing if any. I know some have a ritual that they have stuck with for years but have they tried anything else to see if it might be better?

What do we know as opposed to what we “believe."

John========

99 straight posted:

Nothing but Ed's Red for the past 20 years. Without the acetone. It just works.

blixem posted: Good question. I think all serious shooters struggle with it. Some rifles/loads seem to prefer to be left un-cleaned and un-swabbed for fairly long shot strings while others prefer swabbing or cleaning after each shot. The more guns/loads I'm around the more each takes on a slightly different personality.

The only thing I notice is that most (not all) CB firearms try to settle down into some sort of “fouling equilibrium” after about two fouling shots. Last edited on Tue Jul 15th, 2014 10:02 am by http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8240>blixem

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11 Comments

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Standard Member

Chargar posted this 15 July 2014

Folks have gone back and forth on this for as long as I can remember and that is a long time. I have tried many different things, but settled on one for some time now. I brush the bore with a nylon brush and Ed's Red, follow with a wet patch or two and then with a dry patch or two. If the rifle is going to set for a long time, I put a few drops of oil on a patch and run that down the barrel. Before going to the range I run a dry patch down the barrel and that is that. It takes two or three shots before the barrel settled down to do it's best. I don't know if it needs some heat or some fresh fouling, but that is what I do.

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 15 July 2014

After 15 years of cast bullets, I have used exactly the tools and chemicals that Charger uses. The only difference is for long term storage where I use RIG grease. Ric

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Standard Member

blixem posted this 15 July 2014

I clean or swab during a range session or shooting day according to what works for any particular rifle or handgun for whatever type projectile or powder.

I usually never exceed 20 rifle jacketed rounds fired in any one session. GG cast bullets over smokeless strings can usually be extended to many more than 20 shots. BP MiniÃƒÂ©s usually go 10-15 shots between swabbing. Certain BP ML loads require swabbing between shots as do most paper patch loads”¦.. all the above of course depends on if accuracy is the point.

At the end of the day I clean to bare bore surface with whatever MINIMAL technique is required no matter the load- smokeless or BP, cast bullet, paper patched bullet, jacketed bullet, patched roundball, etc. The only exceptions are my rimfires that are usually left uncleaned for a few shooting sessions depending on the time between sessions or the number of rounds fired.

After cleaning to bare bore surface, I use a good quality oil, the type depending on length of time until the next shooting session. I use CLP or MPro7 for longer term. Light, evaporate oil like LPS-1 or even WD 40 for shorter term. Then simply clean the chamber and run a clean dry patch once through the bore before shooting again.

I don't like any “seasoning” left in a bore. I've never damaged, corroded, pitted or rusted a bore in over 45 years of cleaning/shooting- so I think I'll stick with what seems to work.

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CBA Member

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 15 July 2014

col. harrison told me i could use fine steel wool to clean after mj shooting. i used that in my 222 remmy ( worst case, i think ).. ; it finally went over 1 moa after 50,000 varmint loads ... must not have been too abusive .. note: 1 moa groups from a 222 mj look horrible ... i sold it to a collector ..

in high humid iowa, i fight rust constantly ... best is rig grease, close and handier is * liquid film * from napa auto store . for severe conditions, beats ballistol , rem oil, breakfree types.

it would seem that lee liquid lube, and felix lube should be a great anti-rust ... anybody played with these ?

ken ok, not anti-rust; that would mean rust remover; should term it ” protective coating ” .

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CBA Regional Director

Tom Acheson posted this 15 July 2014

Might want to take a look at what many of the BPCR guys are using.....Eezox, as a cleaver and preservative.

Tom

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CBA Regional Director

Tom Acheson posted this 15 July 2014

CLEANER not cleaver!!!

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 16 July 2014

What I really hoped someone would tell is not how to clean a bore but how to avoid it. I went a couple of seasons of competition without cleaning the bore at all. Something about if it ain't broke. At the end of the seasons I cleaned the bore, fouled the bore and shot a few groups. They were the same average as the average group immediately before cleaning (2-3,000 cast bullet through the bore). The trouble is I have only been able to find such combinations that also shot well a few time in the twenty years since.

I think a load that doesn't demand cleaning comes closer to maintaining a uniform bore condition than one that is cleaned and fouling shots used to get it back to shooting well. Of course just shooting without cleaning unless it also gives good accuracy is no good. There are both top notch shooters who clean and those that don't so it can be done either way.

What does it take to do away with cleaning besides good bullet fit? John

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Standard Member

Chargar posted this 16 July 2014

I have used Rig Gun Grease with good results for over 66years. Two years ago, a guy at the range brought in a Winchester 73 rifle that had been in his house many years and it was covered with a brown gunk. He asked me if I could clean it up. I knew the man's older brother and the rifle looked vaguely familiar. Back in my shop the brown guns proved to be Rig grease which I removed with acetone and an old tooth brush very quickly. I remembered that his older brother had brought the gun to me in 1962 as he was going off to college and wanted me to get it protected for storage at his home while he was away. I heated a can of Rig on the stove until it turned liquid and brushed it on the rifle inside and out with a small paint brush. Now here was the same rifle 60 years later with the same Rig on it. Once removed the metal was as good as when the grease went on. Now that is long term storage protection!

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Standard Member

blixem posted this 08 August 2014

John Alexander wrote: What I really hoped someone would tell is not how to clean a bore but how to avoid it. I went a couple of seasons of competition without cleaning the bore at all. Something about if it ain't broke. At the end of the seasons I cleaned the bore, fouled the bore and shot a few groups. They were the same average as the average group immediately before cleaning (2-3,000 cast bullet through the bore). The trouble is I have only been able to find such combinations that also shot well a few time in the twenty years since.

What does it take to do away with cleaning besides good bullet fit?" John

Now I understand the question. Ideally, for long strings of shots without cleaning, I think a fouling equilibrium is reached where the amount of fouling at equilibrium doesn't adversely affect accuracy. Sometimes it works that way and sometimes it doesn't. I think good bullet fit and design helps. Good bore condition helps. Using the proper powder helps. Not going too high on pressure and velocity helps. Using a proven lube helps. Gas checks can help. And using a softer alloy can help. An odd example: I have a very accurate 22 sporter bolt gun. It is capable of shooting 10 shot cluster groups at 50 yards of about 3/8” off the bench. Starting with a clean bore and after a couple of fouling shots, it can easily shoot a continuous string of 40-50+ shots that literally wallow out a hole less than 1/2” @ 50 yards. I can take that same rifle with a clean bore and same ammo- then intermittently shoot a handful of rounds without cleaning over a month or two. At less than 10 total rounds fired during that couple of months, accuracy will totally go south. I then have to clean the fouling and lead out to return it to accurate condition.

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CBA Member

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 08 August 2014

most of our match 22rf rigs required from 3 to 25 shots to get to a ' stabilized condition ” .... then if you didn't shoot every 30 seconds, the impact might start wandering again ... with the 6 or so match rifles i personally shot, only one was significantly better at that ; it happened to be the best scoring one also ... maybe no co-incidence ?

interesting. i played with moly lubes a lot, it might have been a teensy better but within error range.

oh, in playing with lithium lube on 22 cast bullets, sometimes the first shot after 20 minute break would ” fly ” away 15 moa . FAIL .. then put 10 shots in a good group.

ken

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 09 August 2014

I think that post 10 and 11 point out one of the least understood things about achieving cast bullet accuracy and maybe the part most important (after good bullet design and fit and a good rifle.) I am not convinced that anybody understands what the stuff we call lube really does. I think it is clear that it isn't to lower friction the way conventional oils and greases lower friction between mechanical parts of a machine. What is the best way to handle variations in bore condition? Different shooters find a combination of componenets and a ritual that works for them -- or they think it works which is almost as good. A common approach by many match shooters if to clean after each string and then shoot some number of fouling shots. Others find a combination that seems to remain constant through many shots -- maybe indefinitely. I believe it was Joe Brennan who posted his method on this forum that he said resulted in not requiring fouling shots. I sometimes shoot the first shot or two on a different aiming point to see where they are going and find that the group formed by this throwaway shots is as good or better than the groups shot after the fouling shots and at the same.

When I measure velocities I sometimes shoot groups without fouling shots and find many loads produce the same velocities with the first shots. For other combinations the first shot is consistently different than the rest in the group but the shot is usually in the group anyway.

If you believe that small variations in weight or a type of bullet defect affects accuracy you can test for that by shooting “good” bullets in alternative groups with the “cull” but I am not sure how to tackle learning more about variations in bore condition.