Ruger New Model Blackhawk .357 / 9mm

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Ed Harris posted this 19 February 2014

When I was at Ruger the company made bunches of Police Service Six revolvers in .380 Rimmed (British Service Mk2z) for India.  This cartridge is dimensionally similar to the .38 S&W, except that the WW2-era military round used a long ogival-nosed 178-grain FMJ bullet, instead of the 146-grain LRN of the US .38 S&W.

Quite a few of those India revolvers were assembled reworking 9mm guns leftover from the French order, simply rechambering the 9mm cylinders to slightly lengthen the chamber body from the 0.754” length of the 9mm Parabellum to the 0.775 for the .38 S&W, repolishing and re-roll-marking the barrels.  The 9mm cylinders had already been faced on their outer circumferential edge to clear the 9mm moon clips, but the DA revolver extractor provided ample purchase for normal headspacing of the .38 S&W rim.  The first 10,000 India “.380 Rim” revolvers could use either 9mm Parabellum ammunition with moon clips, or .380 Mk2z (.38 S&W) without the clip.  The chambering reamers used for this cut a gradual 1-1/2 degrees Basic transition from the 0.385” mouth diameter of the .38 S&W case down to the 0.3555” diameter cylinder throats of the 9mm cylinders, to slowly squeeze down the .363” bullet.  

While it is true that this expedient conversion raised chamber pressure, the increase was within safe design limits, approximating .38 Special +P, well within continuous duty limits of the sturdy Ruger revolver.  It also resulted in higher velocity and better accuracy than obtained with dedicated .38 S&W cylinders and barrels manufactured to drawings the India Government furnished, based upon 1940 British Army practice.

The .380 Mk.2z was and is a mild load, producing only 630+/-30 fps. With jacketed ammunition “bullet in bore” (abbreviated “BIB") malfunctions were common during WW2 service.  While the India Government inspectors were initially reluctant to accept any design modification which deviated from the sacred texts of their Ordnance Department, a simple shoot-off of ten revolvers of each configuration was convincing.

All of my Ed Harris “wonder guns” ran 1000 rounds each with no malfunctions using their Kirkee Arsenal .380 Mk2z ammunition. The tighter cylinder throats and barrels produced a whopping 700 fps with smooth function and extraction.  The higher chamber pressure resulted in a “cleaner burn” and after test firings guns of dual-caliber configuration were noticably cleaner than those made to the original IOF drawings, which coincidentally ALL failed due to bullets stuck in barrels prior to any of them reaching the 500 round mark, three doing so within the first 100!    Group sizes firing .363-inch diameter 178-gr. FMJ bullets which were squeezed down like a watermelon seed through the rechambered 9mm cylinders and .354” groove diameter barrels was about 2-1/2” at 25 yards, almost exactly HALF that of the revolvers made to the India drawings, which required minimum .360 cylinder throats and .358 barrels with an allowed + tolerance of 0.0015 on each dimension.  Hmmmm.

Turn the clock up 30 years, and this curmudgeon comes across a bunch of .38 S&W Western Luballoy and Remington 146-grain lead .38 S&W rounds in a yard sale, at a price too tempting to pass up, but with nothing to shoot them in. 

Brain matter starts churning.... I took some .38 S&W rounds and dropped them into the loose 9mm cylinder for my Convertible New Model Blackhawk.  I had bought the gun used and never shot the 9mm cylinder, having been cured of the “9mm affliction” years ago and gotten rid of all pistols I once had in that caliber. Still, having a 9mm cylinder for the Blackhawk seemed an OK idea, just in case a crate of ammo ever fell from the sky off of one of those alien spaceships George Noory is always talking about on late night AM radio.....

As I correctly remembered, .38 S&W rounds stopped about 0.020” short of seating in the chambers.  I took a handful ran them through my Lee 9mm Factory Crimp Die, adjusting it all the way down until I had a distinct “bump” against the shell holder at the top of its stoke.  The resized and heavily taper crimped rounds would enter the chambers almost all the way, but had to be forced in the last wee bit.  Upon extraction you could see rubbing of the case mouth where the now tapered case mouth interferes with the sharp edge of the stop surface on the 9mm chamber.  The photo below shows a factory .38 S&W cartridge at left, and at right, one which has been recrimped and resized using the Lee 9mm Factory Crimp Die. 

I remembered my previous exercise in lapping the chamber throat entrance of my .45 ACP Blackhawk cylinder, and looked around the shop to see what I had which would break the sharp edge to provide clearance, without damaging the outer circumference portion of the stop surface, needed to headspace those 9mm rounds I would hope to find cached one day in the woods after “the end of the world as we know it."  Brownells makes ball-end revolver chamfer tools in 3/8” and 1/2” diameter, which are normally used to gently break the wire edge of a revolver forcing cone, to reduce spitting in service guns used fired with lead ammunition.  The smaller 3/8” ball cutter is intended for .22 and .32 revolvers, but was of just the right length and diameter to reach into the 9mm chambers, turn gently by hand, to break the sharp edge of the stop surface in the 9mm chambers.  Rounds rounds would then seat fully and fall out of their own weight without interference.

Upon firing accuracy of the re-profiled .38 S&W factory loads was of normal plinking quality, about 3” at 25 yards.  But the real purpose was really to get fired brass to reload.  OK, the case mouths looked a little ragged, where they had been pinched and the bullet bases forced through, but they cleaned up perfectly after trimming to 0.750.” From then on they would be sized, expanded and crimped using ordinary 9mm dies with a .38 Special shell holder.

So if you find a bunch of .38 S&W rounds and don't know what to do with them, you can turn them into “9mm rimmed.”  But just keep the loads mild, keeping to .38 S&W data, in case somebody actually tries to put one in a .38 S&W!  I'm looking to approximate the old .380-200 lead bullet service round used.  A mild recoiling, 200-grain bullet at about 630 fps with 2 grains of Bullseye should be just the ticket for fast runs at cowboy steel targets, and perhaps as a quiet Rook Rifle load!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 19 February 2014

Great Story, Ed! FWIW, my British Purchasing Commission S&W 38/200 shoots to POA = POI with a velocity of 610 f/s with the Lyman 195 grain RN and 3.0 grains of SR7625. Ric  

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Ed Harris posted this 19 February 2014

Ric,

I have one of the Ranch Dog 358-190FN molds which Erik bored out the GC heel on, to produce a plainbased bullet with .360” base band. If you would like to try some, I'd be happy to send you some bullets, and would be curious to see how they do in your BPC S&W!  This is what they look like loaded into .38 S&W brass trimmed back to 0.750” for the 9mm Ruger.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

tturner53 posted this 19 February 2014

Fun stuff. Of course I had to pull my 3 screw RBH out with the 9mm cylinder. The cylinder was an internet purchase and not original to the gun. It had to be filed on some but fits good now. These 9mm cylinders come in two different lengths. Anyway, my .38 S&W handloads will not chamber, of course. I've worked a little with the 9mm in this gun and wonder what's Ed got against the 9mm? Unlimited free brass! Mountains of cheap fmj ammo available. If it was a .32 would it be aok? Man if H&R offered a barrel in 9mm for the HandiRifle I'd be all over it. Say, 16 1/4", super light contour, open sights? What I'm saying is the 9mm is already there, available, cheap, and can be loaded up or down even to mimic the old British 380.

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Ed Harris posted this 19 February 2014

As to 9mm, I've owned a variety, FNGP, P1, P5, P6, P7, HK94, Beretta M92F, Ruger SDA94G, and never really cared for any of them. Accuracy was never up to .38 Special and more troublesome to load. For just blasting free ammo, when there were multiple 55-gallon drums available it was great, but the huge variations in cases, barrel and chamber dimensions was frustrating. The only 9mm I really enjoyed was the FNGP competition, but it wasn't at all practical, only as a paper puncher.

Here is the British .380-200 chamber

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tturner53 posted this 19 February 2014

Well you got me thinking now. I was messing around with my Ruger in 9mm last week anyway so might as well carry on. I have that same RD 190 mold in plain base/gc combo so will try some in the 9mm. The gun with any ammo has never been a tack driver but is easily serviceable for rough duty and accurate enough for general purposes. It is my EOTWAWKI gun due to convertible cylinders and strength. My old Ruger has .358 grooves and the 9mm cylinder goes .3595. The .357 cylinder has .359 throats.

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mckg posted this 20 February 2014

Very interesting. I once quoted the production numbers given in Ruger and His Guns for that Indian contract to an (otherwise) knowledgeable expert; being a gentleman, he stopped short of telling me I was a fool... ( 30 K's!? ...) I'm glad to see that someone else believes it was more than a few dozen guns.

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Ed Harris posted this 20 February 2014

I was the Company's Quality and Engineering Liaison to the India government inspectors during the contract. Total production exceeded 50,000 during the period I was there. There were additional smaller follow-on orders of .380 Rimmed to other customers, including the London Metropolitan Police,  Royal Ulster Constabulary, Hong Kong Police and a few smaller others.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

tturner53 posted this 20 February 2014

Does Ruger still do government contracts?

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Ed Harris posted this 20 February 2014

Yes.   Much of the R&D and fundamental design work when I was there was directly in support of providing what the government customers wanted.  The GP100 evolved directly from that, as did the Mini Thirty and the Ruger GunSite Scout.  It took years for some of the better ideas to make it into production, but when I see new things in the catalog now which I brainstormed on a team with 20+ years ago it warms my furry little heart.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mckg posted this 20 February 2014

Boxes of twelve..., that's what the poor (civilian) sods are allowed each year, and I think they have to produce the empties to get a renewal...

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LouisianaMan posted this 03 April 2014

Ed, Well, your story clears up my question as to why I was getting about 710 fps out of my Indian Contract Ruger, using CIS 178g Mk 1Z ammo. Fascinating information.

It also helps me understand the oft-repeated complaints of BIB incidents with the old Brit revolvers. I've had a couple of Victory Models and Enfields that have been very happy shooting a variety of 200g lead bullet loads.

The Ruger has short chambers and doesn't accept much of anything with a shoulder, but a clone of the NEI 169A 200g chambers easily and hits hard with a load that clocks about 680 out of my Speed-Six. Will have to check & refresh my memory, but believe my Mk1 clone 200g bullet is just a hair short of chambering. Would really like to be able to shoot that blunt bullet out of the Ruger--would that reamer do the trick, Ed?

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Ed Harris posted this 03 April 2014

Yes, a slight reamwill.indeed do the trick. A kiss with a standard .35 rifle throater in each chamber should do it or a NATO spec 9mm chamber reamer, having the sloppy SMG throat.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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argie1891 posted this 03 April 2014

I have a victory model that ric helped me put a brand new barrel on a few years ago. someone had shortened the original barrel. anyway I purchased a brand new still in the wrap 5 inch barrel for the sum of $8.00 plus shipping. The revolver flat loves the Lyman 358430 and shoots right to point of aim. I have learned a new respect for the 38/200 cartridge aka 38 s&w

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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LouisianaMan posted this 04 April 2014

Thanks, Ed, that just jumped to the top of my list. That little modification will make it the fighting handgun I want it to be. Argie, glad to hear from you & glad to hear Ric could help you with that Victory. I put a beat-up set of Magnas on one & put the original stocks in the cabinet. Its finish was a bit raggedy, so I disassembled the revolver, strategically taped off a few areas, and bent an old coathanger to hang the pieces from a magnolia tree. Proceeded to spray it down with Brownell's spray paint “Parkerized” finish, and it looks like it's once again ready to use against the Wehrmacht.  It's loaded with 200g LSWC's I cast from a group buy mold, with a velocity of mid- to high-600's. They pack a nice wallop. Speedloaders are full of the shiny 200g Mk1 clone LRN blunt noses. That 5” old-school long action Smith points and shoots like a dream. Have had point-shooting sessions up close where it feels like some laser extension of my hand, bullet holes appearing at the spot I focus my eyes. Of course it loves the 358430 and NEI 169A clones, too. Right now the Victory pulls duty in my garage reloading area and the Indian Speed-Six generally stays in the safe, while a 1911 is first-string in the nightstand. After I touch up the Ruger's chambers, I'll have a shoot-off with it and the Victory to determine which will be the revolver option in the nightstand. Given the unpleasant potential of 2-3 hoods kicking in the door, I like the auto's firepower, but it sure feels nice to have a revolver backup! Final note: Buckshot made a “blind” die for me that lets me run a 358430 up on my press ram and smush a flat on the bullet. Resize, relube, and load 'em up. IIRC, I was able to get a .28-.30” meplat on the bullet and it shoots straight. I don't do it now that I have the SWC mold, but it's an inexpensive & easy way to modify the 358430 into a very hard-hitting LFP. I tend to load the LRN's slow like the British Mk1/Super Police, to promote tumbling after penetration. I take the flatnoses up to about 700 to smash a straight wound channel.

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Ed Harris posted this 04 April 2014

This is the bullet I am now using. Tom at Accurate has added to it the catalog 36-180H.  Meplat diameter is 0.30", bore riding nose .355", bands .360”  There is also a 115-grain .32 and a 270-grain .44 Spl./Magnum double-crimp-groove version.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 04 April 2014

Another option to kiss the chambers of your India Ruger is to try a Brownell's .22/.32 forcing cone reamer. This is ground with an 18 degree angle on a 3/8” shank, which will enter the chambers from the back, and you can turn with the T- handle coming out the front of each chamber, using a .38/.357 bore centering bushing. This would be easier to use than a rifle throater.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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LouisianaMan posted this 04 April 2014

Ed, that 180g looks like a piledriver. My friend Revolvergeek had sent me a link to that one and it got me going! Every time I try to discipline myself to standardize & mass-produce, I wind up tinkering with new loads instead :-) Definitely spend more time loading than shooting!

Went and double-checked those Mk 1 clones in the Ruger and they fit nicely. I think I was flashing back to earlier experiments with it, and had solved it by seating a tad deeper.

The SWC's, however, are a whole different story, especially since I seat them long and crimp in a lube groove. They are about 1/4” short of seating in the chambers. Which would be the better course: ream the chambers enough to fit, or seat at the crimp groove and cut way back on powder and velocity?

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Ed Harris posted this 04 April 2014

In the Ruger I wouldn't worry about eeducing the powder charge. In an S&W Victory or British No.2 Enfield the chambers should be sloppy enough for the driving band to enter.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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william iorg posted this 02 June 2014

Ed, I have to tell you that reading this certainly peaked my interest.

I have little use for the 9mm - my main experience is with the P-38 and the Charter revolver with the rimmed Federal cartridge. I like the rimmed federal but it had no advantage over the .38 and was more tempermental about cast bullet loads.

I shoot the .45 Schofield in the .45 Colt with special loads so as not to mix them.

The .38 Cowboy will work well in the Ruger Blackhawk for the same type loads.

I'll pick up a Factory Crimp die and take a closer look at this.

Here is a drawing from Greg Mushials - RCBS Load program.

Slim

Ed Harris posted this 05 June 2014

Article in the May Fouling Shot starting on p.229-7 has more details than I posted on the Forum here. Also historical background on the .38 S&W.

I have recently been fooling with NOE .359-190 FNPB, which is the Ranch Dog profile with plain base, conventional lube grooves and crimp groove. It is more accurate in my revolver than the Accurate 36-180H. I am seating out as you illustrate, and accuracy is good enoughto hit a 12” gong offhand at 100 yards from the Rugers. Great fun!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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