Bullets to fit cylinder throat

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  • Last Post 06 January 2014
mike morrison posted this 03 January 2014

If you had a Smith&Wesson Mod. 25-5 in 45 Colt that had cylinder throats that measured with a dial caliper at .462. actual size may be larger. How would you address this problem? Might find some 45-70 .460 300 gr. bullets still to small. if so and loaded would they chamber? don't have any so can't try. With the age of the gun I doubt that S&W would put a new cylinder in it. Well maybe if enough $$$$$. Is there anyplace to buy a new cyl that is sized correctly? S&W has not been contacted. Any Ideas? M

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Brodie posted this 03 January 2014

Mike;  The first thing I would do is slug the cylinder throats to get an accurate measurement.  Well, the first thing I would really do is shoot the gun to see if it was accuracy challenged, 0or if it leaded.  Then I would probably either get a custom mould of the appropriate size or lap out one to fit. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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mike morrison posted this 03 January 2014

leads and accuracy is bad. of course I used .452 bullets. I think the inaccurate measurement seems to be really large. thanks Brodie

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Ed Harris posted this 03 January 2014

The S&W 25-5 I had was .458” in the cylinder throats, verified with an expandable ball micrometer. I took an RCBS 45-300FN mold and shortened it to remove the GC heel to drop a 280-grain bullet in 1:30 alloy. I also reamed the forcing cone to 11 degrees included angle and lapped it using the Brownell kit. It then shot OK until I got to Ruger and shot ten New Model Blackhawks with factory ammo which all beat my labor intensive S&W.

I went and bought a Ruger and sold the S&W the next day.

My M1909 Colt New Service .45 has .455 throats and shoots as-cast and unsized Saeco #954 230-grain Cowboy bullets into 2-1/4” at 25 yards with full charge loads with Bullseye. The Smith never did that.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mike morrison posted this 03 January 2014

wow Ed I have a Ruger old model in 45 have the acp cyl that is numbered to the gun. the 45lc cyl is not numbered to the gun and has large throats don't remember the size off hand and the lc shoot patterns the acp is a tack driver. have had the s&w a long time and just fondle it on a regular basis . have not shot it in a while. maybe it needs a new home. or a new cylinder. m

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mckg posted this 03 January 2014

Some have had .44 Mag cylinders rechambered, then fitted to the gun. i would say few gunsmith knew how to do the whole thing properly.

An other way is to look for a .45 ACP (with crane), which might come with .452 throats. This might bring the opposite issue if your barrel mikes .454...

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mike morrison posted this 03 January 2014

have a 1955 bbl and cyl in acp. had it in a m-28 for a while the cyl is too short to fit this gun without changing the bbl. why would the mfg make a cyl throat this large. m

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Ed Harris posted this 03 January 2014

Unfortunately, the Ruger cylinder throats at various times had different dimensions, depending upon who they were buting tools from.

My New Model Blackhawk convertible has .4525” throats in .45 Colt and .4515” throats in. 45 ACP and both shoot under 2” at 25 yards with. 452” bullets and standard “book” charges of Bullseye in the respective caliber, Saeco #954 in .45 Colt and H&G68 in .45 ACP.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Chargar posted this 03 January 2014

Mike...I doubt your cylinder measures .462 as measurements with a dial caliper are not very reliable. The 25-5 did have huge cylinder throats, but not that large, unless somebody jacked with it after it left the factory.

Beginning with the 25-7, Smith and Wesson got their act together on 45 Colt cylinder throats.

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mike morrison posted this 03 January 2014

I will slug the cyl throats tomorrow and give exact numbers. I had a .452 bullet and it zipped thru the cyl. it is large we will see just how much. m

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rockquarry posted this 03 January 2014

I bought a 6” 25-5 when they first became available, probably around 1980. Never shot real well. I tried a variety of bullets, but mostly #454424 cast of WW and sized to .454". My mould is an old 4-cavity from the '50s or '60s. Bullets come out around .456” or so. I run these through a .461” size die for .45-70 bullets. Accuracy is considerably improved, but it's still no target gun. I don't recall what the cylinder throats measure.

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Ed Harris posted this 03 January 2014

mike morrison wrote: have a 1955 bbl and cyl in acp. had it in a m-28 for a while the cyl is too short to fit this gun without changing the bbl. why would the mfg make a cyl throat this large. m The bean counters buy tools manufactured at the maximum of allowed tolerance so they will “last” longer.....

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mike morrison posted this 03 January 2014

Slugged the cyl throat today. Used a 45-70 bullet. the size shows to be .460. hope the picture attaches. sorry for the bad quality. m

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Chargar posted this 03 January 2014

Dats big. If I wanted to keep it, I would split for a custom mold that could produce bullets of .460.

If I didn't want to do that, I would sell it “down river".

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RicinYakima posted this 04 January 2014

S&W did not make a .45 from the end of the Schofields till the HE for the British in 1914. Even with the soft steel used in the cylinders, you will find throats up to your .460". S&W never changed the spec's till 1989 for the 45ACP revolvers let alone the 45 Colt's. They used the reamers till they cut .454-” throats. Why they didn't keep on to .451” for the M1917, I don't have a clue. At least some of them would have shot well. Maybe a pressure issue with ACP ammo in the unhardened cylinders.

I am working on an article for hollow based 45 bullets, but it has just started, maybe next fall for a final report.

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mike morrison posted this 04 January 2014

next project is to cast some bullets. I found I had a mold that is and Ideal 454 289 I am not positive about the last three numbers. not where I can put my hands on now. this looks like a 250ish keith semi wadcutter. it may cast a large enough bullet. (hope) If not I will try and find a large bullet to try.

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Dale53 posted this 04 January 2014

I don't know the date when Smith got their act together, but my 625-6 Model of 1989 (.45 ACP) has cylinder throats of .452” and so does my 625-8 JM Special. I measured them with precision plug gauges.

I have also measured a couple more 625-8 JM Specials (friends guns) and they also measure 452".

They shoot REALLY well (under 1” at 25 yards with the Ransom Rest). I can do nearly as well with them off a sandbag rest with their Red Dot sights.

My Ruger single actions had the opposite problem to the large throat Smiths. My .45 Colt Vaquero and my SS Bisley .45 aCP/.45 Colt convertible all had undersize throats. My two friends' convertibles had the same problems. Undersize are rather easily corrected with the proper tools. Over size “not so much":(.

It's a shame a person has this kind of difficulty when these guns cost so much (they ought to be right). That's the world we live in, I guess. These days, with the availability of tooling (such as CNC machines, etc) we are still having problems. Shouldn't be, but it is...

I learned many, many years ago, when you found a rifle, shotgun, or handgun that did what it was supposed to do, KEEP IT!  Then, the next thing is to get LOTS of trigger time improving your OWN performance. That is the way towards happiness!

FWIW Dale53

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RicinYakima posted this 04 January 2014

Dale, When I was working a lot with the 625 Model 1989 and made an friend at the plant from numerous phone calls back there. 1988 thru about 1994 was the change from worn out 19th century machinery to CNC. No mater what people say about the Brit's (Tompkins PLC)they drug S%W up to the modern machine age. Interestingly, he told me the new machinery started on the N frames first as that was where the quality was the worse. S&W had made the decision by 1992 that revolvers would only be for sportsmen, as all police were going to auto-loaders. Ric

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mike morrison posted this 05 January 2014

Dug out the molds today. cast a few and checked for size. the ideal 454424 (think I have that number correct) measured .458 with pure lead well not quite,cable sheeting and old pipes bhn is 8. then changed lead in the pot and did the same with wheel weights. bhn 11. also checked ideal mould that copies the original factory bullet sorry I do not remember the numbers. have a lee semi wadcutter and a lee 300gc these dropped out at .456. so took a expander from my 45-70 dies and expanded the long colt case so it would take the fat bullets. this really puts a bulge in the case and accepts the .458 bullet. Interesting this bulled when run thru a .459 size die and lubed comes out at .459. ?? Loaded one to see how it would fit. afraid it would not chamber but it did. the bullet is a tight push thru the cyl with a wood pencil. This may fix the problem. did not shoot it as it got dark. will load several tomorrow and give it a try.

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Ed Harris posted this 05 January 2014

When I was at Ruger they went all around the mulberrybush with chamber dimensions on .45 Colt, bcause the SAAMI dimensions ars based old blackpowder tolerencing conentions, but the die makers dize the cases too much to hold .451 jacketed bullets. Ruger made their chamber throats tight .451-.452 for jacketed, andclose to min. SAAMI on body dimensions, but you can still chamber a round in current production US brass with a .455” bullet in it.

The Marlin .45 Cowboy I had was so sloppy, it never shot for sour apples until set back and rechambered to .45 ACP, although it will do 2” at 50 yards with good ammo, the .357 beats it easily.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mike morrison posted this 06 January 2014

lubed the 454424 in a .459 die. Loaded 25 with 9.0 of HS-6. shot them and check the gun. no lead in the throats or barrel. went back and loaded 6 with 10.3 of HS-6 shot them still no lead. the 9.0 left unburnt powder in bbl and cyl. the 10.3 load nearly cleaned that up. 9.0 gave sooty cases the 10.3 almost eliminated the soot. bullets were made from flashing and pipe 8 bhn. accuracy looked good but not a good check as the temp is 23 and the wind is 10 to 23 mph. not a pleasant day to shoot. m

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